Talk:Crisis on Infinite Earths/Archive 1

Lists
Simple lists of "who died" and especially "who was in it" (especially when the list is going to be absurdly long) really aren't of much encyclopedic value. Tverbeek 18:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Enda80-oddly, in an issue of Secret Origins, the Manhunters referred to "The Crisis on Infinite Earths". This suggests that they know of the Multiverse. I recall an entity showing up to rescue superman but his dual mentally warns him against granting him immortality. Reluctantly, he lets him die.

Spoiler placement
I don't think its a good idea to have the spoiler at the very begining of the article. Any topic can have some info that is not a spoiler.

I would suggest moving the overview paragrah to top above table of contents, every article should have an introduction that gives an overview. And then putting speerate spoiler warnings under Plot, Post Crisis and some or all of Critism rather than begining of article - Waza 00:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

editions
Would it be appropriate to include a small section on the different forms the comic took, from the original series, to the recolored and remastered trade, to the Absolute Edition, all with significant changes that might merit a paragraph?
 * No. Dyslexic agnostic 08:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Crisis After-effects
Would it be possible to add a brief section describing later stories that dealt directly with the Crisis -- specifically Swamp Thing's "American Gothic" and Animal Man's "Second Crisis", plus a blurb on the connection between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis?--151.203.145.149 19:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No. Dyslexic agnostic 08:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticism
If I remember right, Crisis came in for a significant amount of criticism for destroying a significant part of the DC continuity, and several characters. There doesn't seem to be any mention of this in the article. Leithp 22:22, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * A sterling edit by User:Tverbeek has fixed this with an comprehensive paragraph on the various criticisms, leaving me with a nice warm feeling for all involved in the Wikipedia project. Cheers! Leithp 20:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * "It is also questionable whether a specific plotline was really required to explain the changes being made, when DC could have easily just relaunched each line from scratch, without tying it to the original continuity, a feat that Marvel Comics achieved much later with it's Ultimate Marvel line." Is this a common criticism, or just a personal observation? Tverbeek 11:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it gives a fair assertion, and as someone in the industry as Crisis was launching, an assertion that I agree with. I think it does provide value in understading the subject of the article. Perhaps, if the problem is an issue of "fact-basedness" it could placed under a heading of Speculation or Speculative Analysis. 151.196.39.142 06:55, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not welcome speculation. Putting a label on it that points out that it's speculation doesn't make it acceptable. And even if you did work in the industry at the time, whether you agree with the opinion or not doesn't matter. It's still not a fact. Tverbeek 10:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

On that note about facts, I think saying "John Byrne's reboot..." is slant-y and sounds a little inappropriate..... never mind, I read the reboot entry. I just don't like the term.

Page protection
Snowspinner, we (the normal Wikipedia community) thank you for the page protection against unregistered users. This frees many up to continue to improve Wikipedia, rather than spending hours simply defending against 151.196.178.112, 68.161.86.144, and others. Thanks again. Dyslexic agnostic 17:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Plot holes
I wonder if I should write up all the plot holes and contradictions in the series... Thanos6 02:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be a good idea to include a small section on it, but it'd probably be most appropriate for this to have it's own article, especially if there are many "holes and contradictions." Premitive1 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"Pre-" and "post-Crisis"
These refer to the event and not the publication. Some events were published after Crisis on Infinite Earths, but are considered "pre-Crisis". See: "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?". Thus, the "Crisis" in "pre-" and "post-Crisis" is not italicized. --Chris Griswold 10:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Overview / Plot problems
The overview section claims the Monitor appeared for a year in DC titles before Crisis began, but Plot says two years. Which is accurate? --Navstar 16:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Post-Crisis "Crisis

 * In the post-Crisis timeline, an epic "Crisis" still occurred in which numerous heroes opposed the Anti-Monitor's attempts to destroy the (singular) universe. While the Flash still died, Supergirl did not, as she had "never existed".


 * The majority of DC Universe characters are unaware the Crisis occurred.

I think this needs rephrased to make it clearer that it's the Crisis shown in the story they're unaware of; they recall the "Crisis on A Single Earth" instead. Unfortunately I can't think of a way of phrasing it that doesn't just make things more confusing. (I hate altered timelines!)Daibhid C 13:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should alter the last line to "the extent to which the Crisis occured and of the previous Multiverse." I think it's a far more accurate line then the current version.--Toffile 13:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I tried to expand the concept to better explain it. --Fv 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Over Protective?
I've noticed that you guys get a little touchy on the subject of Power Rangers being remotely associated with the concept devised by DC... why is this? Crisis proved to be a standard bearer in cleaning up continuity, so there seems no reason why a reference to such can't be included. RabidPanda V 16:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

John Constantine
CovenantD removed the comment about Constantine remembering Crisis without bothering with an explanation. Not the first time he's done something like this before. I've put it back in. --Mister Six 23:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Crisis On Multiple Earth TPB Question
I've been thinking about adding a list of the Trade Paperback/Reprints of storylines Centering on the multiverse team ups prior to Crisis. Some of which are the 4 volumes of Crisis On Multiple Earths which reprint stories introducing other Earths as well as the JLA/JSA Annual Team Ups. My question is would this list be suitable for the COIE page or the Multiverse page? 71.115.210.70


 * I suggest you ask this at the Comics Project talk page (see the box at the top of this page). CovenantD 17:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Supergirl Statue
The following appears on the main page:

''Legion Of Super-Heroes #38: during the mourning of Superboy, a statue of Supergirl is seen. The statue like the others in the background are made in dedication to fallen Legionnaires. The Supergirl statue would be removed when DC enforced her no longer existing.''

I was under the impression that the LSH's trips through time were into a 'pocket universe' created by the Time Trapper, and that Supergirl was part of that timeline. Can anyone clarify? Bigsnake 19 23:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The Pocket Universe never had a kryptonian Supergirl. I agree though that your explanation 'd be the more straightforward answer to that continuity glich. Pity that Byrne thought differently.

Hawkman
What happened to Hawkman of Eath-2? I remember his death and burial in the series, but perhaps it was someone else's. I know he's the current Hawkman now. --Scottandrewhutchins 20:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Earth-2 Hawkman was a sticky bit. They didn't know if they wanted to kill him, so they had Dr. Phosphorus "gravely injure" him instead. In the end, they decided to keep him around. As for the current Hawkman, he's the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Hawkman...it's stupid and complicated. DoctorWorm7 04:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Winged Guy
In COIE #6, there was this guy with wings who didn't know who he was. Who was he?


 * That's Azrael (NOT Jean Paul Valley), an old Teen Titans ally. They just found him one day, frozen in ice. They thawed him out, he had a relationship with Lilith (RIP), and he just buggered off after Lilith left the team. He fell in with Brother Blood, and took care of him after he became mindless. Technically, he should have been at that monastery that blew up when the current Titans checked in on Blood. Azrael was last seen with every other living Titan during the JLA/Titans event. 04:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Planning for Crisis
Does anyone know when plans for Crisis began at DC? How long before the first April '85 issue was it in developement? Because I had always heard the Marvel's Secret Wars was a quickly cobbled together mini-series once they caught wind of what DC was planning with Crisis. Even though Secret Wars was first published nearly a nearly a year earlier in May 84, Crisis had been in development much earlier than that. --Navstar 18:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I had read before that DC prepared Crisis partially in response to Secret Wars. --Chris Griswold 19:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Too funny! I dunno... judging from the epic scope of Crisis, it seems it would require more planning than the relatively self-contained Secret Wars events, IMHO. --Navstar 05:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the forward in the 2001 graphic novel edition, Crisis on Infinite Earths was in the works since 1981 but for various reasons, DC waited until 85, which was DC's 50th anniversary.


 * (second page of forward)


 * WHLfan (talk) 03:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Ten Eyed Man Death Scene
Where's the scene with Ten Eyed Man getting killed? I've looked through issue 12 (in the TPB version) repeatedly and I can't find it! Evernut 01:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Okay! Thank you! Evernut (talk) 15:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Right before Kole puts up the shield for Earth-2's Robin and Huntress. He's the guy buried in the rubble. If he didn't die from the falling debris, he sure died when the Shadow Demon pierced the shield. DoctorWorm7 04:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Comics Project Improvement Drive
We were discussing the idea of bringing the Comics Project attentions to bear on articles to help give the final polish on everyone's good work and bump articles up a quality level or two. 

So to start things off what do people think needs attention? (Emperor 12:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC))

OK - I think to get this upto featured article status, there needs to be a significant shift - what happens in this story is not as significant as the impact it has on 1) how DC managed it's shared universe 2) how it affected comic "events in general 3) it's contining impact on the DCU as a story-telling device. To that end, we need far more material from articles and commentaries from notable writers on comics and notable comic writers discussing the impact of this series rather than what happened in the story. Comments? --Fredrick day 12:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Secondly - can we first cut out all of the material currently in the article that we do not feel would be included in a featured article status article - do we really need a list of people who died? a section on the bits that didn't quite match up in future storylines? --Fredrick day 12:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * List of dead people should be proseified. We shouldn't list every character that dies, but perhaps something like "approximently 20 or established characters were killed off during Crisis, including the Barry Allen Flash and Supergirl". I'm actually not sure which characters in the list are actually "established" though and which were introduced in Crisis just to be quickly killed off in Crisis. The "Continuing continuity issues" section is important, but needs to be referenced heavily to avoid OR. "Parodies and homage references" is a section we don't need at all.--SeizureDog 17:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Overly comprehensive (and not overly useful) lists like that seem better suited to fan sites or the DC-specific wikis which we can link in for further reading. (Emperor 00:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC))
 * I disagree. COIE is/was one of the few places in which a character's death in comics was notable. - jc37 00:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose my main cause for concern is the "Parodies and homage references" such sections can tend to get boffed down in trivia, unclear linkages (original research) and lack of references. Looking through it we do need it but the Power Rangers and Chronos should probably go as the links are unclear or speculative. The Martian Manhunter and JLA/Avenger mentions look like original research. Even trimmed down they ones remaining would need referencing (which I'll look into now).
 * Referencing in general needs improving even if that involves plenty of primary references. (Emperor 01:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC))


 * I noticed that in the "Parodies and homage" and the mention of The Justice League Unlimited episode "The Once And Future Thing, Part 2" It mentions the hand seen at the dawn of time as being the Anti-Monitor. I could be wrong but I believe it was a reference to the Hand seen in 1992's Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale. Especially considering Green Lantern saying to Batman about it being a legend among the corps that no one was to see the dawn of time. 71.174.99.152 (talk) 20:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Done - it really needs a lot more references as some sections could easily be accused of being original research. Also, as with other articles, "Parodies and homage references" are going to be a problem as such sections attract unsourced speculation and suffer from trivia bloat (unless policed hard to things that can be demonstrated using reliable sources). (Emperor (talk) 20:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC))

Critical reaction?
I'm only a very casual comicbook reader, but I was very surprised indeed to see just about nothing here on critical reaction to such a significant event. Any chance we could have something on that, please? 86.143.52.40 (talk) 01:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Solovar
I thought I remembered Solovar dying in his hospital bed, but he's made numerous appearances since the Crisis and getting killed again. Am I mistaken? --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Death of Barry Allen!
I have a collected edition of COIE with a foreword by Marv Wolfman and he said he put a secret plothole in Barry Allen's death that a future writer could use to bring Barry back and that he'll only tell someone "if you corner me at a convention and I'm in a good mood." Does anyone know that plothole and if so please post it here so we can put it in the article.96.250.97.95 (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Crisis nullified?
On October 2, 2011 in his facebook page Dan DiDio seemed to imply that Crisis On Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis did not occur in DC's New 52 universe. (Dan DiDio, October 2, 2011 facebook) This was later confirmed in articles like John Lichman's October 4, 2011 UGO "DC New 52 Timeline So Far" which stated that this comment was to clarify the early statement of "Brace yourself, but after further review, there have been no Crisis events in the New DCU."

Please note that per External_links/Perennial_websites that social media can sometimes be used as reliable sources: "The official page of a subject may be used as a self-published, primary source, but only if it can be authenticated as belonging to the subject. (See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources.)""-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.31.124.156 (talk) 03:37, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

"Plot summary" section
It might just be me, but I honestly can't glean any sense from the current revision's Plot summary section. That's likely partly because I don't know much of anything about the DC universe, but I also can't get a grasp on the semantic coherence. Some examples:

It starts with "who is the Monitor" (even just an in-wiki link would probably have been helpful - the lack of one makes it seem like it should be self-explanatory), continues with "why was the Monitor murdered" (which I gather from Harbinger's page that it was the result of the possession of Harbinger by Anti-Monitor, information which is currently implied as chronologically distinct). Then we have "other three Earths" - how are they other from "the last five parallel Earths". "This fails when all five Earths are in the limbo universe," follows shortly after, which makes the reader wonder if maybe only two Earths were projected into a limbo universe, not the five as claimed? Then, "five remaining Earths"? What happened to the others?

"They use an antimatter cannon to penetrate the limbo universe, destroying the five partially-merged Earths. The Flash (Barry Allen) dies; the Anti-Monitor, furious, vows to stop the heroes and travels through time to prevent the creation of the multiverse." -- I don't understand how the second part of this sentence relates to the first (the 'they' from context seems to refer to the supervillains, not the heroes).

Then the combination of "the Anti-Monitor [...] travels through time to prevent the creation of the multiverse" and "The villains travel back in time to the ancient planet Oa to prevent renegade scientist Krona from creating the technology necessary for the Anti-Monitor's plan to succeed" is confusing, since what I gather from other DC pages, Krona created the multiverse, and so it reads like here we have two different sides of the conflict trying to prevent its creation. It would be helpful to specify what technology is necessary for the Anti-Monitor's plan, and how and why Krona played a role in creating it.

There's more stuff casting similar tripwires. Some of these things are no doubt easy for someone versed in the universe to untangle, and I apologise for not knowing my way around it, but for me, the section is definitely a massive confusion.

Looking at the page history, the section unfortunately seems to be fairly stable. Could someone who understands the plot perhaps rewrite the section so a layperson has a chance at wrapping their head around the subject? I really don't want to insult the authors, I know it can be tricky to get something summarised, but I really can glean barely anything from the section as it is now. Sorry. :( -pinkgothic (talk) 23:12, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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Reboot
The way fans typically discuss COIE implies that it was necessary for a reboot. It wasn't. DC Comics could have just renumbered all its books #1, started a new continuity from scratch, with perhaps a little blurb on the first page warning readers that all past stories no longer count. This is how they do it with movies (the X-Men series aside). I think COIE was an opportunity for the writers to have some fun (crossovers, cameos by old favorites, killing off many) and get the attention of readers - but this is beside the point. It wasn't necessary for the reboot and I think a slight rewording of the sentences that convey that. BaronBifford (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

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Marvel
whats is the equivalent of this event for the Marvel Universe?


 * There is none. The closest thing would be the much later Heroes Reborn, but that didn't change much continuity.  At the time, there was Secret Wars, but that was just a big event, not a continuity changer. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 13:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Marvel doesn't need one. Its characters are more like real people who live in the real universe and have realistic problems. It's books are unmarred by the  contradictions,  reboots, plot holes, exclamation points, absurd powers, ridiculous costumes,  unexplained urgency, stereotyped genders, secret identities,  simpleminded plots, countless obscure characters with names ending in "-man," one-dimensional, inexplicably angry villains with preposterous obsessions, pointless capes, unnecessary masks, cube-shaped planets, supernumerary Earths, multiple "dimensions," parallel universes, 7 year-old target audience, utter lack of subtly, allegory, poignancy, or relevance,  and frantic, spastic childishness of the DC universe. --Verdana ♥ Bold 07:18, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

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