Talk:Cristina Odone/Archive 1

Place of birth
Italy as her place of birth has been disputed. I have found a new source, a newspaper article written by Odone herself, in which it is stated that she was born in Rome, Italy. Alan Pascoe 19:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually (and this is her husband Edward Lucas here) she was born in Nairobi, Kenya. She was raised in various countries because her father worked for the world bank. She is not (despite what is written here) Italian-American. Her father is Italian, her mother Swedish. 88.108.113.17 09:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have now fixed the entry to reflect this Edwardlucas 20:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the location of birth to Rome, because that is supported by a credible source -- Odone herself writing in The Observer. Alan Pascoe 11:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * no her family "originates" from Italy is what she writes. I have her passport in front of me and I am married to her. She was born in Nairobi because her dad was working for the World Bank in east Africa at the time.


 * Also, I think it is unfair to say include these allegations of anti-semitism and homophobia. She has sued successfully and won substantial damages on this issue. Edwardlucas 23:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have removed the allegations because they are unsourced. However, I have reverted the change to the place of birth. The source for this, an article written by Odone herself, states:


 * "This has catapulted Francesco and me into the role of spokespersons. The journalists were quick to overlook the fact that we were born in (foreign) Nairobi and (hated by them) Rome, respectively; we both live in London; and had spent most of our youth in the US."


 * The clear implication of those words is that Francesco was born in Nairobi and Cristina was born in Rome. Now, she may have made a mistake, but that's what she wrote, and that remains the best source of information. You claim to be her husband and know differently, but you have no way of proving that. Wikipedia cannot accept unsupported claims. Alan Pascoe 12:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi this is Cristina Odone here. I see I made a mistake in the article (respectively was the wrong way round) but I assure you that I was born in Nairobi. 88.108.116.183 21:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You forgot to point out your mistake in your Observer article about this incident. Curtains99 13:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Folks,

Odone has mentioned this in an article in the Guardian although she did not mention that it was based on her mistake in an article. See attached link. Capitalistroadster 06:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually it's in her column from The Observer, I'm surprised we even have an article for her, when we don't for other Observer columnists who produce more interesting work. (i.e Henry Porter and William Keegan. Catchpole 14:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just read it. Very cheap. For the record, this is what actually happened. I edited the article on the 1st May 2006, which included the statement that Cristina Odone was born in Rome, Italy, using her IMDb entry as the source. An anonymous editor on the 18th May changed the location to Nairobi, Kenya, claiming that the IMDb entry was wrong. I found a second source to support the original entry, an article written for The Observer by Odone herself, and reinserted Rome as the place of birth. This was not challenged until the 6th August, when an anonymous editor claiming to be Edward Lucas, Odone's husband, stated on this talk page that the correct place of birth was Nairobi. User:Edwardlucas changed the article to this effect on the 7th September. I reverted to the previous version because of the quality of the source, a newspaper article written by Odone herself. User:Edwardlucas changed the place of birth back to Nairobi on the 31st August, and also on the talk page complained about (but did not remove) a statement (not added by me) that Jackie Ashley and Johann Hari had accused Odone of anti-Semitism and homophobia. I removed this statement because it was unsourced, but I changed the place of birth back to Rome. User:Edwardlucas left a message on my talk page on the 7th September, stating that he had complained to Wikipedia, and that User:David.Monniaux had replied that the problem was one of identification, which could be resolved if Odone sent me e-mail using her official e-mail address. User:Edwardlucas wrote that this was not possible because Odone was a freelance journalist, but he could send me e-mail from his official e-mail address at The Economist, and send me a photocopy of Odone's passport, which he did. On receipt of the photocopy of the passport on the 13th September, I noted that the passport stated that Odone was born in Nairobi, then promptly changed the article. Alan Pascoe 18:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As Edward Lucas is Cristina Odone's husband, I respect his right (and hers) to put the record straight. It is, however, not necessary to write "not" in capitals when you have the option of putting it in bold or italics. The misconception that Odone is Italian American stems from this article in The Observer in which she wrote that Year after year, the [Irish] embassy would send me an invite addressed to Christine O'Done. No matter that I regularly sent back an RSVP explaining that I was no colleen, but an Italian-American partly educated and fully employed in Britain, to Irish eyes, I remained one of them. The fact that she is a freelance journalist is irrelevant to whether or not it is possible to have her email address - many freelancers writing newspaper columns display their email addresses, including her in the past. However, she has a right to privacy, just as Wikipedians like us do. Quiensabe 17:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Place of birth change
I have a copy of Odone's passport which states that she was born in Nairobi, Kenya. I have changed the article accordingly. There is a problem in that it is not a source that anyone else can consult. I'll investigate further to find out what is appropriate in this situation. Alan Pascoe 21:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Alan from Cristina and Edward Edwardlucas 04:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this person notable?
Please have a look at WP:BIO to see if Cristina Odone meets guidelines to be considered a notable person. The two relevant criteria I can find are : "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person" and "Published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work"

Does this person meet either of these guidelines or any of the other guidelines in WP:BIO ? Because, otherwise I am going to nominate this page for deletion next week.

Curtains99 10:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * To answer my own question: Cristina Odone meets both criteria. Curtains99 13:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

points from cristina
I would like to point out that my entry contains a few errors: First, the Catholic Herald never dismissed me in 1995, I left the paper to concentrate on my second novel, The Perfect Wife. Second, I never told Charles Moore I loved television -- we never had a discussion about television until Sarah Sands appointed me TV critic. Third, I write regularly for The Daily Telegraph (not The Times) and am no longer a columnist for The Guardian. I would also argue that coverage of the row within the New Statesman is overblown and should be limited to a sentence or two. Cristina odone 21:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree with Ms Odone about the New Statesman. Wikipedia entries are not PR press releases for the individual; most wiki entries would make their subject uncomfortable in some ways since they should also cover criticisms of them.


 * Odone did indeed make allegations against Ashley and Hari, quite serious ones that I think are quite interesting and revealing, and it is worth listing them in this encyclopedia entry, along with the response from the people at whom the accusations were directed. Of course the errors she has pointed out (if they are indeed errors) should be corrected, but nobody is suggesting the NS section is in error. Simply because her behaviour may be embarrassing to Ms Odone does not give her the right to remove it from a serious encyclopedia entry about her. David r from meth productions 22:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Further to my point above, I have just found evidence that Ms Odone is either lying here, or has lied in the past.


 * In an interview with the Independent newspaper, Ms Odone wrote, "I had just been fired in 1995 from The Catholic Herald, which I used to edit..." Yet above she writes "the Catholic Herald never dismissed me in 1995, I left the paper to concentrate on my second novel, The Perfect Wife". Clearly one or other is a lie.


 * Secondly, she told the Independent, "Charles Moore, editor of The Daily Telegraph, approached me to become TV reviewer of his newspaper. He said, "What do you think about television?" I said, "I love it." He said, "Would you like to be a television critic?" I said, "Fantastic." So he announced that I was to be the Telegraph's television critic in a little item in his newspaper." Yet above she writes, "I never told Charles Moore I loved television -- we never had a discussion about television until Sarah Sands appointed me TV critic." Another lie.


 * The interview with the Independent can be found at http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20021112/ai_n12659789


 * I suggest, given this record of dishonesty in one instance or another, that we should treat any recommendations Ms Odone makes about editing this entry with a great deal of scepticism.David r from meth productions 22:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hang on a moment. This is getting out of hand. It is bad wikipedia manners (and potentially libellous) to accuse people of lying like this. The Independent article was not actually by Cristina, but a brief interview with her in which several facts were muddled. Just because something appears in a newspaper does not mean that it is true, nor that someone who contradicts it is lying! The relevant copy of the Catholic Herald in 1995 published Cristina's resignation letter. The Daily Telegraph and Times covered it at the time. Nobody has suggested at any point that she had been fired.

I don't know who "David R from meth productions is" (he doesn't have a user page), but may I suggest that he contacts us first to sort out any details of Cristina's cv that he finds puzzling, rather than spraying this page with accusations. edwardlucas (at) economist.com will reach us.

On the other inaccuracies, Cristina was born in Nairobi, lived there for two years, then moved to Rome in 1962, staying there until 1969. She then moved to Washington DC until 1977, when she came to England to go to boarding school. Her father was stationed in the Comoro Islands (not Seychelles) from 1978 until 1981 and she visited him regularly but did not live there. I am not sure how to add sources on wikipedia, but several websites about her half-brother Lorenzo have some biographical details of this..

It also seems to me that some mention of the film Lorenzo's Oil (in which a "Cristina" character appears along with those played by Nick Nolte and Susan Sarandon) might be worth a line or two, instead of this rather extensive coverage of the infighting at the New Statesman.

Cristina's husband Edwardlucas 22:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * 'David r' used strong language, but I can understand his frustration! Cristina's first and second points concern an article written (just four years ago) by Charlotte Cripps for the Independent, based on an interview with Cristina. You say it is a case of muddled facts, but it would have to be much more than that. The article appears to be one of a series with the title "My greatest mistake". If Cristina simply resigned from the Catholic Herald to work on her book, then simply accepted a new job offer, what exactly was her great mistake? I think the response of Johann Hari is worthy of inclusion, but it should be condensed to a single short paragraph which contains the essence of what he was saying. The text about the Seychelles was added on the 7th August, by you! Alan Pascoe 23:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the obvious reading of this Independent article was that Cristina's greatest mistake was pretending to be her daily (cleaner) by faking a foreign accent, rather than talk to Charles Moore after she had been "outed" by the Guardian for not having a television. This is an amusing anecdote and was the centrepiece of the column. Her departure from the Catholic Herald was wrongly characterised, either because of an error by Ms Cripps or because of a misunderstanding, but life is too short to correct every error. The slot in the Independent is a minor one and the interview for it took all of ten minutes. I think that David R is placing undue weight on it.


 * I am amending Cristina's early life to get the places and sequence right. I have no idea how to source this but anyone who wants can email me.Edwardlucas 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a club where every criticism gets vetoed by the subject, Edward. Is Ms Odone suggesting that Charlotte Cripps, the journalist for the Independent who wrote this article, fabricated or severely misrepresented quotes? That is a very serious and potentially libellous charge in itself, far more so than pointing out very obvious and blatant contradictions between the published statements of an individual. I have contacted Ms Cripps to inform her that this is being potentially suggested about her work. It would help if you would clerify precisely your allegations.

Did Ms Odone complain to the Independent after the article was published? Did she demand a correction? If not, we should work on the assumption that her words were accurately reported, however embarrassing they might be to her now. Wikipedia is not a PR brochure, it is an encyclopedia.

I think the information about Ms Odone and her colleagues at the New Statesman is important and was very widely reported in the media at the time. This does not mean, of course, that additions about other parts of her life should not be made. Edward's suggestion about Lorenzo's Oil is a useful one. But it should not be at the expense of other information on this entry. David r from meth productions 23:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)