Talk:Cristom Vineyards

Location
Note that the winery has a Salem mailing address, but is really closest to Zena and Hopewell. Valfontis (talk) 07:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy to take your guidance on incorporating it to make things more accurate if you think it's worthwhile and have some sources. I'm 12,000km away, so my knowledge of Oregon local geography is not so good ;) Camw (talk) 08:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty familiar with it--it's withing biking distance. :) I need to figure out how to word it--you can see here that the winery is 10 miles away and on the other side of the river from Salem (though part of Salem is on the other side of the river and in a different county). I can probably find a source that says it's 10 miles or 10 minutes from downtown Salem (in the lovely rolling hills blah blah blah). I'd raise my glass to you, but I'm all out of wine! Cheers anyway! Valfontis (talk) 09:41, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Concerns about reliable sources
I have concerns about the reliability of some of the sources in this article. I want to be clear that I agree that this winery is notable, the article as a whole is a good one, and I am sure that most of the sources are solid. I am not trying to criticize specific editors here, but instead wish only to improve this article, and also to improve my own understanding of what constitutes a reliable source for an article about a winery.

This article references WineGeek.com ten times. My understanding is that this is a website of user submitted reviews, and is therefore not a reliable source in my opinion. Then, there are nine citations to Avalon Wine, a commercial online wine sales site. I feel pretty sure that linking to a wines sales site could reasonably be considered WP:LINKSTOAVOID Point #5 and accordingly this reference should be deleted. The website of the International Pinot Noir Celebration, an annual promotional festival, is cited twice. Then there is Prince of Pinot, a retired ophthalmologist who blogs about Pinot Noir. We've got Winesnw.com, a blog that promotes the wines of the Pacific Northwest. In my opinion, none of these are are considered reliable sources. If I am wrong about my interpretation of these sources, I would appreciate an explanation.

Accordingly, I respectfully request re-evaluation of the sources used in this article. Thank you. Cullen328 (talk) 01:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * WineGeeks articles are not submitted by users, only the reviews. That doesn't necessarily make the site reliable of course, but there is limited posting by 4 people running the site only from the quick look I had. For the most part, these winegeeks references are used to support other more reliable references rather than being lone references making contentious claims.


 * Citations are not external links and I don't think that guideline is appropriate when discussing referencing. The guideline specifically says "This guideline concerns external links that are not citations to sources supporting article content."


 * Being a commercial site is not the best kind of reference, but I don't think it automatically excludes it from being sufficient, especially when citing relatively non-controversial information like Cristom making a Syrah based wine. Consider that not all information must be cited in an article, only material "challenged or likely to be challenged" - having a reference, even if it is not the best reference possible is better than nothing in my opinion.


 * If other sources exist that are better then users should feel free to add them, the intent of having a collaborative wiki based environment is that an article is meant to be easily improved rather than being perfect, especially when it has just been created. You can remove these sources and leave the information if you would like to, but I don't think it is an improvement to the article to do so. If you are looking to me to provide alternate sources, then I'm afraid I don't have any available to me or I would have added them in the first place, that would need to be done by someone else and there are not a huge number of people active in the wine project. I understand you are just trying to improve the article, but there is only so much that discussion can do, at some point somebody needs to just jump in and improve it. Camw (talk) 02:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Camw. If you find any better sources, feel free to replace them but right now I don't see any material that is controversial or likely to being challenged sourced to WineGeeks. AgneCheese/Wine 04:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There might be some stories in the local press that are now unavailable because of what we like to call O-vanish. I have access to archives of some of these through the public library website, so if you find any press mentions you can't access, drop me a note and I can send you the text. Valfontis (talk) 04:55, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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