Talk:Crnojević noble family/Archive 1

Montenegrin or Serbian
Here, I'll start a topic for the discussion, then. Figure something out, you two, because this daily reverting is silly. And play nice. -Bbik 09:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Explanation
To be short, I'm going to redirect most facts over to Talk:House of Balšić. 4 peoples populated the lands: Serbs, Albanians, Latins and Vlachs.

The Crnojevics are of undoubtful Serbian origin (as all sources presented in the article). They (the Djurasevics), only in the second half of the 14th century became centered in the domain of present-day Montenegro.

In 1362. Djuras was killed by Balsha I. On Djuras' grave in Prevlaka is: in Emperor's Stefan's name a fearsome knight. Throughout the whole reign of the Crnojevics the Serbian Empire and the Cult of the Nemanyiden became their life motto. The Crnojevics maintained Zeta (or we could already say now, pre-modern Montenegro) as the very last free part of Serbia. As a maintains of the tradition, the Crnojevics adopted the Double-headed evil of the Nemanjics as their coat-of-arms.

This is Djuradj IV Crnojevic's words, when the discussions for a new Serb Patriarch were led: ''..из тог вам узрока остављам мјесто себе Митрополита Германа, а по њем будуће митрополите, докле, еда Бог промисли за србски народ на други бољи начин. Герман је обшти духовни одтац и архипастир, а ово је ваша обшта црква и манастијер, у којему он пребива; тко може, дакле, боље и усрдније за добро ваше радити од вашега духовнога оца?..''

As the very last fringe of the Serbian realm, the Serbian Orthodox Church lied in the hands of the Crnojevics' control. These all traditions were continued (or better said, inherited) by the Petrović-Njegoš not many centuries afterwards.

Quoting Encyclopedia Britannica:
 * Although the Serbs have come to be identified closely with the Eastern Orthodox tradition of Christianity, it is an important indication of the continuing marginality of Zeta that Michael, the first of its rulers to claim the title king, had this honour bestowed on him by Pope Gregory VII in 1077. It was only under the later Nemanjic rulers that the ecclesiastical allegiance of the Serbs to Constantinople was finally confirmed. On the death of Stefan Dusan in 1355, the Nemanjic empire began to crumble, and its holdings were divided among the knez (prince) Lazar Hrebeljanovic, the short-lived Bosnian state of Tvrtko I (reigned 1353-91), and a semi-independent chiefdom of Zeta under the house of Balsa, with its capital at Skadar. Serb disunity coincided fatefully with the arrival in the Balkans of the Ottoman armies, and in 1389 Lazar fell to the forces of Sultan Murad I at the Battle of Kosovo.


 * After the Balsic dynasty died out in 1421, the focus of Serb resistance shifted northward to Zabljak (south of Podgorica). There a chieftain named Stefan Crnojevic set up his capital. Stefan was succeeded by Ivan the Black, who, in the unlikely setting of this barren and broken landscape and pressed by advancing Ottoman armies, created in his court a remarkable if fragile centre of civilization. Ivan's son Djuradj built a monastery at Cetinje, founding there the see of a bishopric, and imported from Venice a printing press that produced after 1493 some of the earliest books in the Cyrillic script. During the reign of Djuradj, Zeta came to be more widely known as Montenegro (this Venetian form of the Italian Monte Nero is a translation of the Serbian Crna Gora, "Black Mountain"). --PaxEquilibrium 16:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

And to the addition - remember the Cetinje printing house, the first printing house in the Slavo-Serbian language. In addition to that the Crnojevics remained till the турске пропасти faithful adherents - and contributors - of the Serbian Church, so even if their origin is Croatia like User:Red Croatia claims, putting "Serbian" over at the article seems like a perfectly sane thing to do. --PaxEquilibrium 16:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is what Metropolitan of Cetinje Mitrofan Ban wrote:


 * Ђуро Црнојевић међу народом српскијем слави се као добри владалац, и као храбри јунак и војсковођа, који је на Ћемовскоме пољу потукао силну турску војску коју је издајник Станиша противу Црне Горе повео био. Осим тога име Ђура Црнојевића знаменито је и по томе, што је он између свију Словена први набавио штампарију, у којој су се на Ободу 1493 године штампавале црквене књиге, које су се не само по Црној Гори, него и по свијема српскијема земљама разашиљате биле ради очувања православне вјере у српскоме народу. По гдјекоја од овијех књига, као особита знаменитост, и данас се међу српскима старинама чува и пажљиво храни. --PaxEquilibrium 16:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

From the History of Montenegro written by the old Metropolitan of Cetinje:


 * Турски изасланици све казаше своме цару Аркану < Оркану >, који изненада по ноћи на Србље удари: кнеза Вука с породицом убише, и изгибе много српске војске, због чега син му Марко побјеже турском цару, а Србљи поставише кнеза Лазара себи за господара. На овом избору била је сва српска господа, осим зетског и црногорског херцега, који је у то вријеме био Баоша син Страцимиров, а војводство је примио послије Јована Првог херцега, који је пак потицао из породице кнеза Вукана, сина Симеона Немање, и звао се Јован Први Црнојевић. --PaxEquilibrium 00:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Since User:Bbik criticized me, I'm gonna try to translate this:


 * The Turkish emissaries told everything to their tsar Arkan < Orkhan >, who surprisingly in the night stroke the Servians; knez Vuk with his family murdered, and great part of the serbian army killed, because of which son of him Marko fled to the Turkish czar, and the Servians put knez Lazar for their lord. On this election the entire serb lordship was present, except the zetan and montenegrin herzog, who in that time was Balsha, son of Stracimir, and the Dukedom he received after John the First herzog, who descended from the family of knez Vukan, son of Stefan Nemanja, and his name was John < Ivan > the First Crnojevic. --PaxEquilibrium 15:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

---The Crnojevici may have been serbian origin, but they were montenegrin, hence "lords zetan" not "lords serbian" i rest my case


 * Sorry, what? --PaxEquilibrium 20:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

House vs. Family
-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:31, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Crnojevic family - 53
 * House of Crnojevic - 4

Ethnicity or identity issues
, it is best to sort out the dispute on the talk page. I suggest the removal of the entire unsourced content, and additions based on RS such as Fine and The Cambridge Medieval History. Re the origin and identity, a small section could be a more viable solution than the first sentence of the article. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sourced content should be restored. The family was ruling under several Serbian states, which can be seen from the infobox.  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  22:21, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Allegedly, the direct heir of Crnojević family who was born as a Mahmud Bušatlija is now an Orthodox Christian. cheers  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  19:07, 12 January 2020 (UTC)