Talk:Croatian security and intelligence system/Archive 1

Untitled
In Croatia exist only two intelligence agency, from summer 2006. In period 2002 - 2006 exist 3 agency. System decribed in article is very old and very NPOV --Suradnik13 (talk) 18:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup proposal
It's pretty obvious the article needs a maor overhaul to make it moe useful and encyclopedic. The issue was brought up here over a year ago, but we didn't actually do anything as I assume nobody was interested in the topic. Furthermore, there were dozens of bodies which were formed and disbanded related to the intelligence system over the years and swamping the article with them is jut confusing, and the other issue that anyone editng it will probably run into is that there is naturally little publicly available data on existing agencies. It will be difficult to source anything reliably. Having that said, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and we are obligated to provide some encyclopedic content for general readers. Hee are some ideas about spin-offs:


 * Standing Committee for Internal and Foreign Affairs - Does not have an aticle at hr wiki, so we can assume it is not notable enough. The article is unlikely ever to be expanded beyond a stub. It seems the body is defunct anyway. The content should therefoe be merged into History section. The original article should probably be deleted as the title sounds rather general (doesn't indicate that it is an article about a Croatian committee).


 * Joint National Security Committee - The same as above. The article is a stub 105 characters long. The body seems defunct. Content could easily be merged into the History section here and the original article safely deleted (it already has a disambiguaton notice to avoid confusion with Kazakhstan's National Security Committee).


 * Intelligence Community Coordination Committee - I assume this is the Savjet za koordinaciju sigurnosno-obavještajnih agencija which is operational today. Another stub which is unlikely ever to expand further. Should be merged in here. The original article should be renamed to some less confusing title (by at least adding Croatia in brackets, as is the current convention for government ministries around the world) and perhaps kept as a redirect to this article. If anyone wishes to expand it at a later date, the redirect can easly be converted into an article.


 * National Security Office Act - A stub about the bill which was passed in 1995 and which reorganised the intelligence system. Not only does it tell the reader that "Croatia was established as an independent state in 1995", it also doesn't seem very useful as it only defines its subject. Content should be merged into History section here and then deleted.


 * Ured za nacionalnu sigurnost - Not sure about this one. Definitely is notable but still, unlikely that it could ever expand beyond what it says about it here (formed in 1993, disbanded in 2002, organisation and heads). All that could be merged in the History section here or in the History section of its successor SOA. Alternatively, the article needs to be expanded to make it look like the Croatian version. In any case, should be renamed to something like National Security Office (Croatia).


 * Služba za zaštitu ustavnog poretka - The same as UNS above. Formed in 1991, disbanded in 2002 when the agency merged into POA. Unlikely ever to expand beyond what it says in the Croatian version. Probably sould be merged ino the History section of the current SOA as it is its successor agency. (SZUP had merged into POA in 2002 and then POA was merged into present-day SOA in 2006).


 * Sigurnosno-informativna služba (SIS) - Another agency which was disbanded in 2002, eight years ago. Croatian Wikipedia doesn't have an article about it, but it is mentioned in the history section of SOA (as it already is at hr wiki). Unlikely to expand further, should be merged into SOA or VSOA article and turned into a redirect (even though it's grammatically incorrect and lacks diacritics - the proper name was Sigurnosno-informativna služba with the department of defence).


 * Department of International Military Co-operation - I have no idea what this is. If it ever did exist, it probably doesn't today. The stub does not give us the Croatian name and lists no references. Even if more information is found, it could probably be merged into one of the existing articles. Should be speedily deleted.


 * Croatian Intelligence Service - or Hrvatska izvještajna služba. Another agency defunct in 2002. Everything I said for SIS applies here too.


 * Nacionalna Sredisnjica Elektronickog Izvidanja (NSEI) - The agency was disbanded in 2001 but is closely related to the present-day Središnjica elektroničkog izviđanja. Content from NSEI should be merged here or into the Središnjica elektroničkog izviđanja article (which needs to be created). The article could safely be deleted.


 * Stožer osiguranja - Existed from 1993 to 2001. It lists no references and it's unlikely that it is notable th way it is. Contents should be merged here and the article should be put up for deletion.


 * Nadzorna Sluzba - Same as above. Defunct since 2001.


 * Obavještajna akademija - No idea if this still exists. Probably disbanded around 2001, but not necessarily. I assume it could be merged here and made into a redirect.

That's for starters. In order to avoid such chaos in the future, some guidelines could be agreed. I suggest that new and existing articles follow the "english language name (Croatia)" format, as is already used for government ministries (as can be seen here) to avoid confusion as there are hundreds of similarly named agencies around the world, which all merit an article on Wikipedia. As for the proper translation, th name officially used by the agency or the government should be used. If this doesn't exist or could not be found, other editors should be consulted and ased for suggestions to avoid later page moves (speaking of which, this article should have stayed at its former title, following the convention for such articles as seen here). Whether it's calld a "system" in official documents is beside the point as articles such as these are meant to be an overview of intelligence agencies in a particlar country, e.g. of the "intelligence community" (and Fajberglas should learn the importance of followng existing naming conventions at wikipedia). However, I don't care much about the topic so whoever feels passionate about this is free to do what he/she wants. I will not interfere, but I'm pretty positive somebody in the future will :-)

As for the article structuring, it would be nice to avoid clutter and unnecessary article creation by producing something resembling Sigurnosno-obavještani sustav u Hrvatskoj, which gives a nice overview of what existed and when by period. Whatever could be included into the History section should be, and for the rest there are present-day agencies SOA and VSOA. Overseeing bodies are unlikely to merit standalone articles and they can be talked about in agencies' articles or here.

Also, to avoid simply translating word-for-word what legislation says, it would be great to simplify the prose to make it accessible for general readership (this is something the Croatian article lacks as many articles there are simply copy-pasted legislation, which is of very little encylopedic value), and perhaps to spice it up with adding confirmed and referenced mention of respective agencies' activities known to the general public (any scandals or cases in which they were involved, and so forth, but ONLY with references).

There's my 2 cents. '' Timbouctou (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I propose deletion of all above mentioned articles, except UNS, HIS, SIS and SZUP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fajberglas (talk • contribs) 19:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)