Talk:Crohn's disease/Archive 2

External links section
There was an WP:Edit war about a big list of external links added to the article. I agree that a lot of them fail per WP:EL or were just not necessary. I do think that the Crohn's Colitis organizations do belong as they are very useful for the reader and the article. I also think that the Alan Kennedy one Study using RMAT to treat Crohn's disease may be useful for the article either as an external link or maybe incorporated into the article. Can I have some thoughts about this please? Thanks, -- Crohnie Gal Talk  11:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed the divbox. Sorry Crohnie, gotta disagree.  WP:ELNO is explicit on the support organizations (#10).  However, the DMOZ does allow linking to support groups, and there are a vareity to be found on it.  I would suggest that anyone who think their support group is worth linking to in some way bring this up at the DMOZ project to add to the CD DMOZ page.  Unfortunately I can't help with the hows - I believe it's wiki-style editorial review, but with much looser restrictions than wikipedia.
 * As for the Kennedy article, per ELNO #1 it's also a bad link - it should be integrated as a inline citation and used in the page rather than blankly linked to. It's a good link of convenience if the article isn't available freely already, but it might be a copyright problem.  The Mad Cow link I also removed - if it's not published somewhere in a medically reliable source, it's undue weight, possibly a fringe issue to link to it.  If it's the position of a sizeable minority, it should be documentable in medical journals and textbooks and not linked to a "some guy" webpage.  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 14:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I missed the closing part you fixed, thanks. You did good!  As for the DMOZ one, yes it was here but an editor argued that it couldn't be here, forget the reasoning now and I refused to get into edit wars and stick with a one revert except for vandalism.  Your right about the Kennedy one, I think it should be inline in the article.  There is no problem with copywrite with it as Alan has it posted all over the net with permissions.  (He used to go to a web support group for CD that I used to go to.  I'll have to think about it and reread his info to see if it still would apply though since it's really been a long time since I read his site.  He has some, well at least he did have I need to check, good resources linked to his page.  So maybe that would be the best way to go with it.  Thanks for your input again, it keeps me honest here!  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  14:42, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge with colitis
I don't really know how to do this but would it not be a good idea to merge this and the colitis article and they are both the same condition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.73.199 (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The merger wouldn't be appropriate as the two conditions are different, treatments vary though symptoms are somewhat similar. I have Crohns and it is different. Regards Zippomk2 (talk) 11:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, what Zippomk2 said.  Lugnuts  (talk) 11:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I also agree, the two disease are very different. Colitis involves the large colon and is curable with surgery.  Crohn's disease can attack from the mouth to the anus and there is no cure for it.  So there is a reason for separate articles on these.  I hope this explains why.  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  13:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Prevalence #s?
I recently had a family member diagnosed with Crohn's and while reading this article noticed some inconsistencies in the math.

Crohn's disease affects between 400,000 and 600,000 people in North America.[5]

With there being roughly half a billion people in North America the prevalence would be, roughly, 1:1000 or 100:100,000

The incidence of Crohn's disease has been ascertained from population studies in Norway and the United States and is similar at 6 to 7.1:100,000.[90][91]

Assuming even the low end of [5] at 400,000 people affected and a prevalence rate of 6:100,000 the population of North America would have to be above five billion.

I have not read all the studies referenced in this post, nor am I statistician, but it seems that something was misquoted or inaccurate for their to be such a difference in the numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Folstar (talk • contribs) 20:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Recent discovery.
Thanks to a dr. Lower for bringing this to my attention.

Regrets I was not able to find how to reference this to the artilce, hopefully someone with more time may change it.

thanks

"BUGGING OF THE INTETINAL MUCOSA" Clara Abraham, MD, Judy H. Cho MD


 * A recent report in the New England Journal of Medicine, August 16, 2007 states that while past investigations into suspected bacterial infections were not proven, currently the disease is believed to be the result of "excessive intestional immune activation that is driven by either luminal bacteria as a whole or perhaps particular bacterial subpopulations."

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 04:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The ref for this requires a sign up to view the whole text. My question though is this a ref that requires a paid subscription to view the information?  If it does then I respectfully request a ref that can be viewed for free.  I saw that the login said for a trial view of articles or somehting along these lines.  I don't think that articles that require a person to pay to view the ref is allowed.  Could someone clarify this for me please?  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  17:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it requires a paid subscription. Freely available sources are preferred, but those that require payment are certainly allowed; see WP:MEDRS. You can request a copy of the article at WP:LIBRARY—I've found their services to be excellent :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 18:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I have a copy to email or fax or otherwise ?

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 19:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Holistic approach.
Need for holistic approach to treating IBS, or Crohns.

I have been following this disease since 2002, and note that some holistic sources have always claimed that a 'parasitic' infection was the cause of this.

These same sources have also suggested a three fold treatment.

1. anti-biotic natural.

2. fiber

3. probiotics.

We need a listing for these suggested treatment types and some reliable sources.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 21:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you find a reliable source for pseudoscientific claims? 143.167.172.148 (talk) 19:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a book, "Prescription for Natural Cures"....James Balch, MD...Wiley Publications.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 03:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what antibiotic natural is, but probiotics and fiber are both discussed under the "Lifestyle Changes" and "Prospective treatments" sections respectively.Rutilus (talk) 01:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I object to documenting unproven, untested, and ineffective "treatments" in any encyclopedia (or indeed in any public locus) without a prominent warning notice. Remember, we live in a world where critical thinking is (and always has been) relatively rare. We cannot assume that everyone knows that there is not even an adequate rationale for these approaches, much less standard safety and effectiveness studies. "Holistic" (unproven) approaches sometimes work for a few individuals, and are then falsely generalized as being effective for a larger population. David spector (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Accutane
"Some scientific studies and court rulings have suggested that the acne medication Isotretinoin is a possible trigger of inflammatory bowel disease in subgroup of patients. Three cases in the United States have gone to trial thus far, with all three resulting in multi-million dollar judgments against the makers of isotretinoin; there are an additional 425 cases pending. pmid=16863562; pmid=15381956; pmid=11675849"

I've removed the preceeding section from the main page, I'm not averse to having it included, but the current form isn't appropriate. Here's why:
 * IBD and CD, are they the same thing? I'll defer to an expert on this one.
 * The use of news articles as sourches are gneerally bad ideas (see here); it could be used to justify the law suits though.
 * Court rulings do not determine medical results; the interaction of the two should probably be teased out so the medical information is separate from the court rulings. Whether the court cases should be on this page or on the isotretinoin page is a topic for discussion as well.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 14:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

New research material?
I came across a web-site that you may or may not be aware of, which you would perhaps find useful. http://alan.kennedy.name/crohns/welcome.htm Jkjambsj (talk) 18:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not a medically reliable source. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 22:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The studies cited are however often relevant. Check out the study done by GP Gui, PR Thomas, ML Tizard, J Lake, JD Sanderson and John Hermon-Taylor: http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/3/393 John Hermon-Taylor in general has some amazing studies. He is on you tube explaining this all to the layman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halej (talk • contribs) 10:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually I was wondering if a small section should be devoted to all of the studies done on treating MAP infections with antibiotics in CD patients?--Halej (talk) 10:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC) I have a whole bunch of studies that suggest a link between MAP and CD.

History section
Wouldn't it make more sense to move this entire section toward the beginning of the article? Just a thought. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 15:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.216.235 (talk) 01:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Wiki circa 1975
I stumbled across a Readers' Digest medical encyclopedia from 1975 the other day, and some of you may find this interesting. The entire entry for Crohn's reads as follows:

"Severe inflammtion of the intestine, known as regional ileitis, named after the American physician Burrill Crohn. For details, see ILEITIS."

That's it! One sentence and the equivalent of a "see also" section.  Lugnuts  (talk) 11:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Not surprising to me unfortunately. Thankfully time has made things better known to the public.  I had never heard of this prior to diagnosis.  Thanks for the info though, interesting that it was even mentioned at all. -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  12:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)