Talk:Crop circle/Archive 1

Hoax discussion
The article seems to dismiss the entire phonomenon as a hoax. While some crop circles most certainly are created by hoaxes, this doesn't seem to the the case with all formations. Some of the formations are much too complex (one had 104 cirles arranged in a complex pattern). It would need a team of dozens of people working in close coordination to achieve it within a single night. Other complex formations have appeared just next to busy highways. It would be virtually impossible for a team to create it without being detected. I'm no easy believer in such phonomenon, but this one really needs more analysis. Anyone who has spent some time in studying this can say that it's not a hoax. - muvu

Exactly. IOf one really studies everything out there, crop circles are inexplicable. The list below is actually a very good summary of what has been found. There is a authentic scientific investigation going on by BLT research. There are verifiable observations of stuff that could not possible be made by the human hand such as crystalization of clays in the soil within a circle. That cannot be faked by any means. Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

-- I got the opportunity to see a video that shows how Crop Circles are made. They are made by flying white orbs. Anyone interested?
 * ...Anyone?... anyone?... anyone? ...

Usually they are called "Balls of Light" or BoL's. From the various descriptions over the years they appear to be plasma balls. The video of a ball of light hovering over a circle and then zooming over to an approaching farmer, mentioned below, on a tractor leaves out the part where as the BoL passes over the farmer, he turns his head to watch it go by...Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

- that video is a fake made by a FX studio team .... other non-fake videos exist, showing "balls of light" flying around (one passing in front of a farmer on his tracktor) but no direct relation with the making of the circles.

Some information in this article was obtained from "Crop Circle Confession" Scientific American, August 2002, page 25 --mav 02:11 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Other information in the article has come from visiting a dozen or more crop circles in England and studying the phenomena first hand.--User:217.36.14.132

I just read this from the article and got the biggest laugh of the day.
 * "One theory is that crop circles are created by flying saucers landing in a farmer's field and flattending(sic) a neat circle of the crop -- however the increasing complexity of formations makes this theory less likely. "

..yeah 'cos extra-terrestrials who have can fly thousands of light years from other planets, would find it really hard to draw geometric patterns other than circles. If crop circles were only circular it would be much more likely that aliens created them. Mintguy 13:44, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC) -see the whole picture by looking at the different repositories of crop circle photos : some are made qith hundreds of circles, some are made qith some "scanline" manner ... Lucy Pringles got some beautifull aerial picture of it.


 * What would be the advantage to aliens of having such oddly shaped ships? r3m0t 20:14, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

-irrelevant question : crops are not landing path but more signs for us to see...(interpretation regarding the huge amount of data contained in the designs)

An anonymous IP came by and added a bunch of fairly POV material to the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Crop_circle&curid=56206&diff=0&oldid=2786672

Why do you say POV? They are actual observations that were made. Isn't it POV to claim that they all are hoaxes?Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think some of it can be salvaged, and I'll try to come back here and fix it another day, but others are encouraged to take a crack at it. Thanks, BCorr ¤ &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 04:45, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

I removed the statement that religious people love conspiracy theories because I think it is not true and because the statement was unreferenced. Please add a reference for this statement before re-adding it. Andries 15:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"This sparked controversy that they were merely trying to confuse the issue and in so doing made crop circles seen as a 'fringe' or 'esoteric' field of research, because the sort of people who have a religious need to believe in things like "crop circles" and loathe Occam's Razor."

does anyone know what the second half of that sentence is trying to say? does it make sense to anyone?


 * I think it's missing a "they are" after "because". It's probably just your average hard-core atheist's POV. --Ssokolow 07:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

critic
this article urgently needs some organization. it's confuse. needs headings, bolds, history.

I would love to do that, but my experience has been such that it might mean going to war with whoever is in charge here. Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

== critic critic ==

pot, kettle, black
 * Yeah, because we all know ordinary message discussions should be held to the same standards as articles. (Sarcasm)

a good PD image of a crop circle?
Does anyone have a good, public domain image of a crop circle that could be displayed as part of this article? - Bevo 21:29, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You can feel free to use any of my pictures from my website, petersorensen.com (there are a couple of hundred going back to 1996). Contact me at croppie2@yahoo.com if you want written permission. All the best, Peter Sorensen

"When the surveys photographed ripening crops or drought-stressed terrain they revealed what were soon termed "crop marks", the differential ripening of the crop that revealed differences in the subsoil caused by the buried remnants of ancient buildings. Archaeological were soon instigated, but, though many previously unsuspected archaeological sites were found, no crop circles were ever recorded."

Archaeological were soon instigated? What does this mean? -- claviola 00:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * 'Archaeological investigations were soon instigated" My bad. Fix him up good now. --Wetman 07:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

''Among proponents today, most suggest that there are both natural and hoaxed circles. They suggest that natural ones tend to be simple and seem untouched and seem to have unusual electromagnetic properties and that the hoaxes are more complex and have definite signs of manhandling.''

I think that it is incorrect to say that natural crop circles tend to be simple. We have examples of extremely complicated ones.

Varnav 18:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is it POV to state that on a certain afternoon, a few hundred yards from Stonehedge, a crop circle consisting of dozens of circles appeared within a time frame of 45 minutes. The guards at Stonehedge said it wasn't there on their rounds, and then it was. Also sen by an airplane pilot,Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hardly NPOV
I'm putting npov on this article, since to me the overall tone is an assertion that belief in the authenticity of circles amounts for the most part to unscientific New Age kookery. Not only do I not agree, but this is not at all what I consider NPOV.

Sounds right to e.Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Petrus4 12:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I would consider myself a "believer". (I don't think all Crop Circles were made by man. Although, I'm not about to claim it's aliens.) However, I have to agree that this aricle isn't NPOV. For a start the section named "Hoaxed circles" suggests that some circles aren't hoaxed, which is hardly a proven fact. I don't think this article will be that hard to fix. I might even give it a go myself. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 12:59, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * I have to say that I think this article leans towards "beliving" not the other way round and I disagree with your last edit. We must maintain a scientific viewpoint, no matter what we persoanlly believe. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 13:10, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * While the word "unscientific" is technically correct (The alien/other beings hypothesis is untestable), it does bear a huge amount of negative connotation with it. I must say, though, that no matter how you write this entry, if you rely on a factual based way ("Some people believe..." etc.), the circle-making-aliens believers will come off in a negative light.--Jonthegm 18:49, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * "Unscientific" in its sense of unprovable or depending upon supernatural forces is not merely "technically" correct, it is perfectly correct and colorlessly neutral at every level of cultural literacy. Any opinions to the contrary are misguided. --Wetman 21:38, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * NPOV doesn't mean that you have to be gullible. Crop circles are a gag, and they were never anything more than that.  Would you want an article on three-card Monty to say that it's a "game of chance"?

History
Crop circles go back at least to the 1920s, if not beyond (earliest report so far discovered date back to 1590).
 * So what? People have had boards and rope for millennia.
 * SSo what does that mean?Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Distribution
They occur worldwide (e.g. 1997; USA, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Nether lands, Belgium, UK).
 * Again, so what? People see them on TV, see the woo-woos getting all excited about it, and decide to do the gag themselves.

So what does that mean?Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it means that people see them on TV, see the woo-woos getting all excited about it, and decide to do the gag themselves. *shrug* --Mal 00:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I applaud your masterful use of reiterative logic. -- Dark fred Talk to me 18:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Perpetrators - Non/super-human?
They have appeared in a field cordoned off by infra—red cameras and motion detectors; no human activity was detected.
 * citation, please?

Eye/ear Witnesses
At least a dozen people have witnessed formations occurring in front of them. In one case — Vivien & Gary Tomlinson — this was accompanied by an extremely loud noise like “pan—pipes”, which actually perforated Vivien s eardrums.


 * Twelve people, out of over six thousand million, have claimed to have seen these "formations"? All the while, someone was playing pan pipes? Freaky! --Mal 01:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have seen talking Bananas --84.13.246.206 16:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Visible Nodal Changes
Nodes on the stems of plants from a formation often show nodal elongation or enlargement far beyond explicable natural causes, such as phototropism or negative geotropism. Sometimes, large holes or “expulsion cavities” are evident, where moisture has exploded out.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel

Cellular Changes
Over 90% of samples from formations studied every year show microscopic pit-holes in the nodal cells, indicating flash heating in a micro-second.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel

This could also suggest a severe temperature change in the samples after being taken from the particular location. Strangely enough, over 90% of all crop circles are explained as hoaxes, nothing more. Very difficult to believe we are alone, but as human nature exists, so does the ability to trick one another for selfish reason.

All you need is ONE Tommy Mandel

Carbon Blackening
Some plants in crop formations have been found covered with a thin layer of carbon.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel


 * There was a UK documentary which follow a team of crop circle creators. They mentioned that they often added charcoal and sulfer dust afterwards just to confuse the paranormal "scientists". -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Germination Changes
Seeds from within a crop formation show marked differences in germination to that of control samples. The germination rate is either vastly increased, or slow and inconsistent, or even refuses to germinate at all.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel


 * Because the seeds originated from different crops and thus were created with different amounts of water and nutrients a test of this kind would be scientifically impossible. Germination is highly dependant on local weather and crop conditions. Even between bags of seed and adjacent plants there is huge varience. -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Perimeter Stalks
Some stalks are pulled into the flow from beyond the perimeter stalks - this does not happen when the formation is made with boards or rollers.

And sometimes standing stalks are found with flattened stalks all around.


 * lol these guys are funny! I'm starting to respect crop circle makers more and more! --Mal 01:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Crop Selectivity
It has been observed on several occasions that odd stalks of another crop, or sometimes, other plants, such as thistles, remain standing, while the crop is laid flat.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel

Bent Rape Stems
Early UK formations are often in oilseed rape, in which the stems are found to be bent right over. This is an impossible effect to hoax, since rape stems are very brittle. Some samples taken from formations continue bending into a 360 degree curl.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel


 * Done by draggin a soft tarp, one person at each end, weighted at the end with a light board. One person stands still the other moves to form the circle.-- Dark fred Talk to me 21:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Nitrogen / Nitrate Ratios
In 1995, the Agricultural Development and Advisory Service found an increase in the nitrogen/nitrate ratios inside some formations, but the ADAS department which did the tests was immediately shut down afterwards. This research has since been taken up again by Jim Lyons, who stated in 1998 that the results again showed an increase, and that they would soon be published. (I haven't found them yet).

Time Dilation
2 separate groups of experiments have been performed showing that clocks inside formations lose or gain time compared to those outside. This could be due to an extreme electromagnetic field contained inside these formations.

One researcher ws watching a tractor approach, he turned around and when he turned back it was several minutes closer. Time warp is often discussed.Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't even have to bother with this one. :) -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Magnetic Anomalies
Magnetic effects can be seen in some formations using a compass, which can deviate several degrees from true North. If a magnet is dragged round the formation, there will sometimes be iron particles found sticking to it. Also, minute, partially melted particles of meteoritic magnetite have been found in a centrifugally distributed pattern.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel


 * Magnetic compasses don't point to true north! They always deviate by a few degrees and instead point to magnetic north. (although this varies even depending on the local magnetic field). Second point, iron filings, even if not left by the hoaxers to confuse you have an obvious reason for being there. Combine blades have been used over this spot of terrain for 40 years at least. -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Electro/mechanical Failures
Many electronic gadgets have been found to fail inside crop formations, including cameras, video equipment, power-packs, and tape recorders. They often function perfectly just outside the formation. Several TV crews have picked up severe interference. Mobile phones, if the batteries work, often won’t transmit or receive in the formation. Combine harvesters have also broken down several times while harvesting formations.


 * Many electronic gadgets have been found to fail outside crop formations, including cameras, video equipment, power-packs, and tape recorders. They often function perfectly just inside the formation. Several TV crews have picked up severe interference. Mobile phones, if the batteries work, often won’t transmit or receive in the formation. Combine harvesters have also broken down several times while harvesting. --Mal 01:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Photographic Anomalies
Many photographic anomalies have occurred in formations, but the most inexplicable one shows a ghosting effect in part of the image; the people photographed inside a formation are recorded in 2 images, but in the ghosted one, they have moved relative positions!


 * Many photographic anomalies have occurred outside formations, many inexplicable ones show a ghosting effect in part of the image; the people photographed outside a formation are recorded in 2 images, but in the ghosted one, they have moved relative positions!

Menstrual Disruption
Some formations have caused disruption of the female menstrual cycle, and in some cases, even post- menopausal bleeding following a visit to a crop formation.


 * Some events other than crop formations have caused disruption of the female menstrual cycle, and in some cases, even post- menopausal bleeding having not ever visited a crop formation.

Endocrine Effects
Lucy Pringle has announced the results of a test in which the melatonin levels in 2 subjects had been found to rise significantly after visiting a crop formation. Melatonin is produced in the pineal gland, and has many effects, including pituitary gland output, and thence the hypothalamus, these last 2 in turn, inhibiting gonadal hormone output. This could explain the menstrual effects. Melatonin can also cause elation and REM sleep — the dream states that correspond to theta activity in the brain. There may also be a connection to the magnetic anomalies, since Serena Roney Dougal has found that electro magnetic fields can affect melatonin production.


 * Wow you mean standing outside all day looking at crop circles can cause Melatonin changes? Who would have thought that standing outside would affect a hormone which is controlled by sun exposure? -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Balls Of Light
Many people have reported seeing balls of light at night, over crop fields in which new formations are discovered the following day. Several videos have been filmed of balls of light in crop formations, apart from the infamous Oliver’s Castle footage. Even crop-circle hoaxers have admitted encountering ‘flashes of light, pillars of light, and balls of light‘, while out in the crop fields. But then again, they are "hoaxers".


 * But they never went out to investigate? Perhaps to chase off the college students who were ruining their crops? Too deathly afraid of these balls of like (flashlight beams)? -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Miracle Cures
Lucy Pringle reports having taken many people with arthritis and rheumatism into the formations, who, she suggests, have subsequently recovered. A woman who had Parkinson’s disease stopped shaking for 24 hours, and one deaf person permanently recovered their hearing.


 * Many people with arthritis and rheumatism (and other ailments) report having improvments to their health or condition following having drunk water from a particular source, having visited a holy shrine and various other things. --Mal 01:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

SOURCES!!

Dead Porcupines And Decapitated Dogs
In the 1991-93, in Canada, (in 2 separate events), 2 porcupines were found dead in crop formations. One was blackened and almost disintegrated. The other was squashed flat. (links to dead porcupines and decapitated dogs)


 * lol ok .. leaving a single blade of a crop standing is one thing.. killing animals is a bit cruel tbh! I wonder what caused these mysterious deaths, menstrual bleeding and, conversely, miracle cures. It doesn't seem to be very consistant, does it? Perhaps its the effect of the aliens' time machines or warp drive signatures left behind by their visits.


 * I wonder if they get sick/miraculously cured on board their spaceships. --Mal 01:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the "timewarp" cause the poor porcupine to perish of old age? But really I doubt the hoaxers killed them, prolly just picked them up off the side of the road on the way to the crop. -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

SOURCES!

Scared Horses & Howling Dogs
Horses have been observed to refuse to go into a crop formation, even while being whipped by a humiliated farmer's wife. Dogs often bark madly the night of a formations arrival. One farmer s dog stopped 15 metres from a fresh formation and howled when its owner went in. On the 2nd day it went down to 10m, on the 3rd day, 5m, and on the 4th day, the dog entered the formation.


 * Horses have been observed to refuse to go to location x, even while being whipped by a humiliated farmer's wife.


 * Dogs often bark madly. --Mal 01:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Underground Water
According to Glenn Broughton and Steve Page, who have continued research started by Brian Grist., 90% of formations in Southern England lie on aquifers (water-carrying rocks — mainly chalk, limestone and greensand).


 * Does that 90% include all the known and verified man-made patterns? (as if there are any other type lol!) --Mal 01:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh hey - perhaps the people that make the crop circles are under alien influence. --Mal 01:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 99% of england is positioned over limestone and chalk aquifers, I am surprised the number was only 90%. You can dig down 5 feet in most of Southern England and hit water. -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Intricate Lay
The crop in a genuine formation is often found to be in layers, with each layer swirled in a different direction. Some of the smaller, outlying circles are often found swirled into cones with a hollow in the centre — the stems are woven together like corn dollies. Bundling is another effect, where the crop is twisted into bundles as it is laid down, with the leaves coiling round groups of 4 or 5 stems.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel


 * I didn't realise there were disingenuous formations!


 * They have certainly developed the art extremely well since it was started back in the 70s. --Mal 01:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Radiation Anomalies
The Grasdorf formation in Germany 1992, registered a radiation level 76% above the safe legal limit in German work-places; it dropped back to a lower reading later, which is normally impossible - radiation levels usually stay constant. Michael Hesemann suggested that the Geiger-counter may have been picking up “a hitherto unknown energy”.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel


 * What are the radiation levels in the other ninety million crop circle formations..?


 * Michael Hesemann's equipment may have been acting up.. or he's just seeking his 15 minutes perhaps. --Mal 01:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Trilling Noise
A 5 to 5.2 KHZ buzzing, or “trilling” sound has been heard and recorded in several formations. It was detected by a BBC sound engineer, and recorded on his tape, just before his camera broke down. Although it has been said to be identical to the call of the Grasshopper Warbler, the BBC tape has been analyzed by a NASA specialist, who said it is NOT birdsong. What is more, in the famous Billy Meier UFO case, in 1975—76, Meier had recorded a 5.2 KHZ buzz.


 * Birds in a corn field? My God call the government! -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Rapid Daylight Appearance
The “Julia Set”, a fractal pattern of 151 circles that appeared at Stonehenge in July 1996 appeared in broad daylight, between 5.30 p.m. and 6.15 p.m., according to a pilot who flew over the area, and back again 45 minutes later. Two other witnesses — a farm worker, and a security guard at Stonehenge confirmed that there was definitely nothing there earlier in the day.


 * And despite the fact that a docuemntary of the Hoaxers was shown on BBC the next month people still insist that it was real, it baffles the mind. -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Insects Stuck To Crop
In some formations, flies have been found stuck to the crop, by their wings, as if the wings have partially melted, or by their tongues.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel

White Substance
A white sticky substance, or white crystal powder or sometimes a white cob-web-like substance reminiscent of the UFO-related "angel-hair", is sometimes found in formations. Dr. Levengood has tested some of these, and found a silicon-hydrogen compound which had been formed at over 3000 degrees Celsius.

Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.188.163.3 (talk &bull; contribs) JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 12:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC).

= If the Ailen Beings who fly to earth from -literaly- billions of miles away, use advanced laser or microwave-beam technology, and leave large diagrams in the fields of honest, hardworking farmers, can do ALL of that, why not simply leave us something more permanent and tangeible, say, like a pair of stone tablets? Or perhaps Technium, somthing that can be only produced by an advanced technological civilization?

My point is that if something wanted to go to the efort to fly over and talk to us, why would they try to hide it or obfusicate (sic) it with bizzare geometric symbols? -PTTG (PS: I DO belive in aliens, just not UFOs) =

Just because they may be an advanced life form, why assume that they know how to communicate with us? Have you ever tried talking to a bee or a cat? I find it funny when talking about aliens in this way. I mean, if the do exist, they probably come from a completely different solar system. Don't you think questionioning there motives is a bit presumptuous? These marking might purely be for their own benifit as reference points or something. Hell, for all we know it could be young alien vandals! Soupisgoodfood 01:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

-because they want to talk to the ones that will understand, and leave the other in the mist. All the UFO field is covered by this disinformation signals from diverse sources and lead to believe that "we are not ready" (as a specie) but that "some have been contacted" as people and subject. for common people, it could be synthetised as this : "the best proof that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the galaxy is that they never tried to contact us" (bill paterson)


 * Just a wee comment on the person above's belief in aliens and not in UFOs. I believe in UFOs. UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. There are simply loads of them. The possibility that they are piloted by aliens is however not my first instinct!


 * As for aliens - I think the law of probability suggests that it is more likely than not that there are other animals out there, somewhere, that have a level of intelligence and consiousness on a par with (or even exceding) that of human beings. However, just because its possible doesn't mean that is is. --Mal 01:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Article Cleanup
I removed the NPOV tag and replaced it with a cleanup tag. The article seems to be reasonably neutral. Remaining POV statements are mostly isolated and need to be fixed during cleanup. IMO, this is what still needs to be done to clean the article up:
 * Crop the external links a lot to fall in line with External Links
 * Split-up the Conclusions section and merge in to other (or new) sections
 * Copyedit the whole article with a emphasis on NPOV and prose. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 16:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

US has them, people HERE in the US are...
The US has these things, even appearing in snow and ice.

In the US, people tresspassing on other's property will likely end up shot and killed,especially in Texas,LA.,AR.,certain other states, yet there are these glyphs. If the owner is "merciful", the offender(s) will end up in prison for a wide variety of charges, if the property owner is not "merciful", the offender(s) is shot and killed. I used to live in some of these places.Martial Law 04:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Trampling the crops is equivalent to "B&E w/ intent to commit a worse crime" in some people's minds.Martial Law 04:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hoax??
Well, here there are mentions of some being a hoax some not being a hoax, in my opinion they are all hoaxes.

Firstly no one has ever provided a valid theory which proves that this crop signs have been made either naturally or by extraterrestrial influence, leaving theories just pointless theories.

Observations supercede all theories. Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And Secondly, I strongly belief on Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, they claim to be the early makers of these designs.

From above: "The “Julia Set”, a fractal pattern of 151 circles that appeared at Stonehenge in July 1996 appeared in broad daylight, between 5.30 p.m. and 6.15 p.m., according to a pilot who flew over the area, and back again 45 minutes later. Two other witnesses — a farm worker, and a security guard at Stonehenge confirmed that there was definitely nothing there earlier in the day."

'Conclusive' (At least I think so) evidence was given on a TV program last night (Monday 19 December 2005) on Sky One (UK), the program is called "Danny Wallace's Hoax File" and is a program made by Danny Wallace, where he mentioned his favourite hoaxes of all times, obviously this was his number one, and I would have to agree with him on that.

Some good evidence was provided on the program, which reinforce my opinions on this signs.

Furthermore there has never been any evidence to prove the existence of extraterrestrial life, and in my opinion this is just a dream fuelled by Hollywood Paddy -) 21:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Use of 'Hoax'
This article refers to manmade circles as hoaxes, but there is nothing to support the notion that any crop circle has ever been anything but manmade. How then are hoax and hoaxers applicable terms? Crop circles are art akin to graffiti, and the article should reflect that reality. Wpjonathan 21:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it is because they were considered to be made supernaturally, and the creators didn't come forth to explain the phenomenon. They were intially hoaxes and/or pranks. AFTER one of the hoaxers revealed himself, it has obviously become an 'art form' or graffiti. Of course, despite this, conspirationalists still contend that most/many/all/some of the crop circles are not man-made... and so the hoaxes continue. --Mal 07:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ice Circle / Argument against Hoaxes
Want to see a ice circle ? See this link: Ice Circle Martial Law 21:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC) :)

You get a hoaxer trying that here in the States, he/she will get shot. Not only that, these things are getting really complex, and extremely LARGE. Farmers here in the States don't put up with these shennanigans, since crops are harmed, if not destroyed by hoaxers. Danny Wallace should come to the States and see our crop glyphs placed on the of property of people who will shoot to kill any intruders trying to create these things. US laws give the farmers the right to use lethal force to stop criminals breaking into their property. This is NOT vandalisim, personal attacks, etc., just the cold steel hard truth. Martial Law 21:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

IF the hoaxer survives, the hoaxer can look foward to being in prison for MANY years for fraud, Conspiracy(if more than one hoaxer is involved), inciting a riot, criminal mischief, vandalisim, burglary, tresspassing, other charges under US law. Martial Law 21:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC):)

The ice circle is in Canada. Cheers. Martial Law 21:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC) :)


 * Could you BE more incoherent?--Deglr6328 09:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Martial Law?? I don't doubt the law in the US allows trespassers to be shot legally. But this does not prove that they are not hoaxes. If no one finds out you are doing it, you can't be shot? right? [[Image:Flag_of_Ireland.svg|20px]] Paddy -) 20:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * As farmers,ranchers,others tend their land, they often do catch intruders, and kill them or let the Sheriffs' Office have them for prosecution, if the owner is so inclined. Martial Law 23:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * As if legal ranchers and farmers are'nt bad enough about killing intruders, those growing illegal drugs(pot,weed, grass, that sort of thing) will surely kill tresspassers, and have been known to use booby traps on tresspassers. I'm a evidence man myself. Martial Law 04:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In the US, if you're caught, you will get shot. Posted land. Violet and purple paint splashed on trees and the like on the property owners' property also means posted. Some states, such as Texas has made it legal to kill tresspassers, and if the property owner believes his/her life, loved ones, property is in danger, he/she is justified in killing the intruder. That is US law. Martial Law 23:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * No, in the US you cannot be shot for trespassing. The shooter would go to jail for the rest of their lives. In only one state Texas are you allowed specifically by law to shoot someone who breaks into your home. To avoid going to jail you still need to prove that you were in danger at the time. We have laws in this country, I don't know where you come from. -- Dark fred Talk to me 21:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Signs
No mention of the film Signs on this article? It would be a good addition to the article, showing the importance of these signs for today's society.

I don't know much about this film, and I don't have the time now, but once I get to see the film and I research a bit into it, I will add something to the article, maybe someone can add a bit about it here. Paddy -) 00:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

"Conclusions"
This article looks pretty good, though I'm not particularly familiar with the material. However one section heading caught my eye - "Conclusions". It isn't our job as Wikipedia editors to draw decide which version of the truth is correct. We're just here to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. I suggest that we should refactor the section, which has good material, so that it does not make its own conclusion. That's the job of the reader. -Will Beback 08:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Investigation
I'm currently investigating a plant glyph that happened in Louisiana, near Barksdale USAF Base. This thing was found in a area that is full of woody weeds native to the area. This may not be a hoax, due to the nature of these plants. Of course, I am wondering why there is no plant glyph found in a forest. Trees are just plants, just like any other plant. If one is made in a forest, that should settle this matter. Go to the Coast To Coast AM Gallery. There is a pix on this plant glyph.Broken plants are used to track elusive criminals who may have escaped prison. Martial Law 22:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

A crop circle in tr3ees has been found. Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Using damaged plants is a requirement in tracking skills. Tells what happened, when it happened to the tracker. Martial Law 23:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Still does not prove if these are a hoax or not. Martial Law 23:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Some are counterrfeits, some are not. Only need ONE real one case is closed.

NSA Related Topics
How can the NSA tap into what appears to be a alien communications signal ? Do "We" really have that capability ?! Is there something going on here ? Martial Law 23:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Intent to edit
Hi, I have read the research on crop circles and intend to add my comments to Wikipedia in accordance with Wikilaw. Is there going to be any problem with doing that? I will be citing scientific sources and I will not end with aliens. For example I will discuss this article found at http://www.bltresearch.com/ohio.htm

Tommy Mandel 03:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Just examined your source, you should take this to Coast To Coast AM. Did you state that a glyph was created in a forest, bending, yet not damaging trees ? The reason that aliens are assumed in the creation of these things is that UFOs are usually seen in the area, along with animal mutilations, and some of these things are really complex, and some appear to be similar to ancient Egyptian writing or Mayan writing, or what was allegedly found on some of the UFO derbis found at Roswell, New Mexico. In one in case, someone videotaped white lights flying in a field, and a glyph was found in that field. Martial Law 19:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC) :)