Talk:Cross-quarter day

Dates of the Solstices and Equinoxes
[|The US Naval Obseravtory publishes "the" national standard data for the dates and times of the solstices and equinoxes. The times given there are in UT (Universal Time -similar to GMT) so they read 5 hours ahead of what clocks are reading in the US's Eastern Standard Time or 4 hours during Eastern Daylight Saving Time. Neopagan publications have been mis-stating the dates of the solstices and equinoxes for generations now, probably just by copying from each other and being befuddled by the seemingly ambiguous dates they find when referencing the astronomical data. The following values represent the actual/correct dates based on USA time (EST/EDT).

MARCH EQUINOX: usually March 20th; occasionally the 21st; NEVER the 24th or 25th...

JUNE SOLSTICE: usually June 21st; occasionally the 20th...

SEPTEMBER EQUINOX: usually Sept. 23rd; occasionally the 22nd; NEVER (never) the 20th, 21st 24th, 25th...

DECEMBER SOLSTICE: usually Dec. 21st; occasionally the 22nd

Earrach

--- August 1 hardly marks the start of autumn so I would say these are all shifted by a season!

--

Yes, indeed. Cross-Quarter Days mark the middle of the seasons. It is the Quarter days (solstices and equinoxes) which mark the beginnings of seasons.


 * Cross-quarter days mark the start of traditional seasons, but the middle of astronomical seasons. November, for example, is the start of traditional winter, but in the middle of astronomical autumn.  Which makes more sense depends on what part of the world you're in---in some parts of the world it makes sense for November to be mid-autumn, while in other parts of the world, November is decidedly wintry. --Delirium 09:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Thinking of the cross-quarters as the midpoints of seasons is a bit misleading as well. The reason is that it insinuates 1 1/2 months of seasonal temperature lag, while most northern temperate climates have only about 1 month. And in some climates (like the West Coast), winter lag is MUCH shorter than summer lag.

I've found a nifty way to split the difference, though. I like to think of the period between a quarter and a cross-quarter as a "High Season," while the period between a cross-quarter and quarter is a transitional season. Not only does this system give you a better approximation of seasonal lag; it also acknowledges the fact that the four primary seasons tend to overlap. The period between Groundhog Day and the March equinox, for example, is a transitional period between winter and spring. Karlbonner1982 (talk) 07:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

British Isles part of northern Europe?
Looking at the article Northern Europe it seems the definition is ambiguous: the British Isles may or may not be included. I think it's worth emphasising that they are included, since the term "cross-quarter day" is a British term, and many Brits would think of countries like Sweden, Finland and Norway when reading the article as it currently stands, and might assume that the cross-quarter days are purely an imported concept. While the UK and Ireland are now part of the EU, they have long been considered somewhat separate from Europe, or "the Continent". Do you mind if I add those four words back? Fuzzypeg★ 22:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe it would be better to list the countries - removes any ambiguity... Bardcom (talk) 23:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I just added back British Isles, and suddenly realised that actually wasn't what you meant. ("British Isles" isn't a country!) If you want to list individual countries I'd be happy with that. And feel free to revert me if you wish until we sort out what wording we want. I wasn't trying to be pushy... honest. Fuzzypeg★ 22:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No worries - there's no panic or hurry on this. If you look at the wikipedia article on Northern Europe, you can see that it does include the British Isles, etc.  If we agree to list the countries instead, what about the list of Sweden, Norway, Finland, United Kingdom (or British Islands), and Ireland.  Have I missed anybody? Bardcom (talk) 23:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with this change. British Isles and Scandinavia is more succinct and reads better. I'll revert this until we have wider discussion. 86.27.230.177 (talk) 21:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The consensus here was to list the individual countries. If you wish to suggest anything different, carry out the discussion first, test for a new consensus, then make your change. In the meantime, I've reverted. --Bardcom (talk) 21:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy with individual countries as suggested by Bardcom. Is Iceland in the list? (I honestly don't know.) Is Iceland part of Scandinavia? Listing individual countries avoids any confusion. Fuzzypeg★ 22:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Europe/Mediterranean have different seasons to North America
Because of the Gulf Stream, Europe and the Mediterranean have seasons advanced by 45 days compared to North America. For North America, December 21 marks the beginning of winter and only on March 20 does the grip of freezing relax and do Pasque flowers - the first flowers of Spring - pop out of the snow. This happens in Europe and the Mediterranean around in February, around cross quarter day. So for Europe December 21 is mid-winter's day, in reality, not simply by convention. In the Mediterranean the observation of winter is even more profound - the rainy season is November through February. Astronomically the European Calendar makes more sense. December 21 marks the low light point and the middle of winter defined as the season of shortest days. Oneye1i (talk) 03:14, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

One also needs to remember that even in North America, there is a vast difference in seasonal weather in various locations. For example, growing up in the Midwest (Indiana specifically) spring weather didn't really begin to be consistent until late March, with periods of warmer weather followed by a bitter cold snap in early March at times. In fact the last time I was in Indiana was 23 March 2008. I'd arrived in Indiana on 20 March 2008 to weather that was sunny and warm. On Easter Sunday, I was in church and my then 6 year old son along with my best friend's son who was then 9 were a few rows away from us. I remember that going into church around 8am that the weather was chilly and overcast. But I did not expect what happened sometime between 10:30 and 11am. I looked out the window and saw snow falling. I was a bit worried my son would look out the window and in his excitement over seeing it snow (a rare occurrence in coastal South Carolina) would interrupt the service. In SC that day, the weather was sunny, and had a low of 46 and a high of 61 with no precipitation at all. In Indiana, the low was 25, the high was only 41. and there was snow(a small amount at .01 in). These two locations are separated by approx. 775 miles. 174.107.155.28 (talk) 02:03, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The day begins at sundown also not convention
That day begins at sundown - as it still does in the Jewish (Babylonian) Calendar - is not convention. It comes from the lunar calendar. The recurring event that is methodically and ritually observed is the first sliver of crescent moon in the West just after sundown, marking the New Month. If the month begins at sundown, then the day - which is a part of the month - must as well. Oneye1i (talk) 03:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing a change to the article? Itsmejudith (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

1. Propose change "since traditionally the new day was considered to begin in the previous night" and replace with "since in the lunar calendar days begin at sundown (since the new moon/month begins at sundown, marked by astronomical observation of the first sliver crescent in the west at sundown)." 2. I am a little unsure how to proceed with this one. All the holidays (holydays) listed are European, so we have a European POV (which is ok so long as it is acknowledged, but the reason is the whole concept). The concept of cross quarter days comes from Europe since something observable happens then - the season changes. We in North America do not observe season changes at cross quarter days, but on equinoxes/solstices, which are solar astronomic events. Even people keeping a lunar calendar do not ignore the sun - solar events are critical. In Europe, the solar events mark mid-season. The Gulf Stream advances European seasons by (approx.) 45 days, and that makes the difference. The Mediterranean region observes the rainy season begin and end around the cross quarter day (Nov-Feb). There is not observable astronomic event on cross quarter days that I am aware of. ... So please someone a little less neophyte than I integrate this! Oneye1i (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2011 (UTC)