Talk:Crossbow/Archive 2

West Africans brought crossbows to US?
"Other sources note its usage in Western Africa, with enslaved Africans bringing it to America."

Is there a source for this? I highly doubt "enslaved" Africans brought crossbows to America. I highly doubt they had crossbows. I'm removing this.
 * should be a start. I've replaced it, with a ref. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 04:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Read the sources to an article. Wandalstouring 15:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Lateran II
Has anyone bothered to read the canons of the second Lateran Council ? There is a wikilink that shows that nothing in that council speaks of crossbows or arbalest, the only relevant canon is the 29th which speaks of slingers and archers... Also I would like better substantiated proof for the Urban II forbiddance Chris CII 15:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Slingers and archers includes all range weapons. The crossbow was nothing special, it was a bow.

French wiki says: L'usage de l'arc et de l'arbalète est proscrit à l'encontre des chrétiens (canon 29).
 * Wandalstouring 17:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's an often-repeated statement that the church outlawed crossbows (when used against Christians) specifically, but at least with regard to the 2nd Lateran council, that doesn't seem to be supported by the text shown in the Wikipedia article on Lateran 2. Many sources I found in a brief search repeat the notion that "crossbows were banned for use against Christians", and mention both Pope Urban II and Lateran 2, but mostly without any details or evidence of real research into the issue. One source specifically states that Lateran 2 didn't apply to longbows, but still with no indication of real research. Another source quotes language (including the original Latin) from Lateran 2 that doesn't seem to be in the Wikipedia article, though this quote doesn't include the text where the weapon(s) are named, and the difference from the Wikipedia article may just be a difference of translation. I'm inclined to think that it's a myth that the Lateran 2 "Anathem" applied specifically and exclusively to crossbows, but it's an amazingly widespread myth. With regard to Urban II, my search didn't turn up anything with any original text from his decree or whatever it was. I'll look into this some more later.KarlBunker 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In the Medieval source book I found the following citation:
 * http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN2.HTM
 * 29. We prohibit under anathema that murderous art of crossbowmen and archers, which is hateful to God, to be employed against Christians and Catholics from now on.


 * But read the footnote:
 * 1. There are no surviving acts of the council and very little can be surmised from the records and chronicles. The sources are collected in Hefele, Histoire des conciles d'apres les documents originaux, trans. and continued by H. Leclerq 1907-52., 5/1, 721-722; but see also, Bernhardi Jahrbuecher der deutschen Geschichte, I Leipzig 1883, 154-160.
 * Wandalstouring 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see the sourcing improved on this section of the article. If the historical record is thin, that's fine; we need to say that. If we're claiming "experts" have a different idea, we shouldn't cite a single self-published work; where are the experts, plural, and what consensus is there? --Thatnewguy 19:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed the emphasis on that section so that it's less of a polemic based on a single "self published" source. The wording is now "may have banned", which I hope is a compromise that should leave everyone equally displeased. Rogerborg 11:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Crossbowmen usually had two servants...
The discussion starting with 'Crossbowmen usually had two servants...' seems a bit spurious. The Xbow was used for hundreds of years in many different contexts so a blanket assertion like this seems a bit odd. Can someone add who & when to this section? And even a cite? Ashmoo 01:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It refers to Richard Lionheart and his crossbowmen on the crusade and to the Landsknecht crossbowmerceneries. The drawing one had a special name "Spannknecht". So it is said in special regard to Europe from 9th to 15th century.

The Roman ballista was either operated by several men. It is unlikely for lighter versions with poisoned bolts like the Chinese operated.

Wandalstouring 02:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hussite Wars shows crossbowmen with shield carriers. But they did not have this approach of master and servant because they were a religious group fighting for survival. Perhaps the passage can be rephrased to fit them too. The depicted equipment is far too good for an army relying on farming flails.

Wandalstouring 16:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

platearmor crossbowproof
In Nuremberg there was a special treatment for high quality armor. It was shot squarely with a crossbow. The bolt only left a small mark. With this sign of steadfastness it was sold throughout Europe as crossbowproofed armor. It was too expensive for most soldiers or knights to afford. In formations the ones with such protection were among the first ranks (receiving more payment) or commanding officers. Wandalstouring 02:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Modern crossbows and hunting with the crossbow
There is lots of research about the employment of the crossbow in Europe during the Middle Ages, sources about China are almost totally lacking. Despite the fact when it FIRST appeared little is said about development and employment. China did have a Middle Age.

Today crossbows are still used for a variety of reasons, especially in hunting, sport and still military. Especially hunting with the crossbow is an interesting part that is definetly mentioned too short in this article. Most times a crossbow was shot, it was practice and second came hunting, warfare is a rare exception. Wandalstouring 01:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * True, but warfare was certainly the most interesting use of crossbows. Not many people want to read about hunting with a crossbow, and nobody wants to read about practice shots with a crossbow. :-)
 * It's the uses that had historical importance that are most interesting. KarlBunker 02:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, crossbow is the best weapon to kill whales (sure Greenpeace would like to know). I just assume, that as the biggest multilingual free-content encyclopedia we should provide some information besides this warfare-thingy.


 * I agree, and as you said, it would be nice to have more info about Chinese usage of the crossbow too. KarlBunker 14:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I saw a crossbow (basic hunting recurve) used to fire a modified bolt with a cord attached used to take a tissue sample
 * from a whale. I don't think the animal was seriously harmed. - raptor 1 July 2006


 * It depends on size and intention. In former times it was hunting to kill whales. They are not only big animals. there are a lot more smaller whales. whalehunting was about hitting precisely the breathing hole to drown it with its own blood. in meantime the rope enabled to keep in contact with the dying animal. Wandalstouring 11:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * But it is nice to know that other things than killing whales are possible. Wandalstouring 23:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think crossbows are often used when they are needed to fire something much heavier that a bullet, eg. a bolt with a line attached for fishing/whaling or quick movement between buildings etc. -raptor 08:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you provide pictures and sources (manuals for vets, etc.) to spice up the article? ThxWandalstouring 17:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What exactly do you mean?
 * I have a photo of a modern recurve crossbow, what do you think? (It's mine so I could get a specific angle etc. if you like)

raptor 12:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a picture of a crossbow bolt used in whale research in the restructured article. cyclosarin 02:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

stationary devices for drawing crossbows
on the left bottom corner is a crossbow on a bench and a man turning a wheel of a mechanism under the table of the bench. the string faces towards this mechanism. Wandalstouring 13:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Beekeepers
Karl, that phrase sounds much better now, but the content is wrong. Wandalstouring 18:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How so? Let me know and I'll fix it. KarlBunker 18:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Up until the 17th century was about the specific style of beekeeping. I have no deadline for the use of the crossbow, but since the 15th century it faded out. So probably was no longer in use in the 17th. Wandalstouring 18:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, can you insert a short note that there were stationary devices for loading crossbows. See picture next to this. Wandalstouring 18:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't seem like this "stationary drawing machine" was used very often, so I'm not sure it's worth including in the article. The article is already a bit too much of a random collection of little facts, I think. KarlBunker 09:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Some little facts we can delete. They are contained in other parts of the article. Perhaps a new structure could help. Wandalstouring 11:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Modern Crossbows
"Modern crossbows are often made with a similar technology to modern bows, but also sprinsteel is still in use. Composite materials such as fibreglass and compound can be employed for either compound or recurve structures. Today strong compound crossbows still use pulleys or cams to provide a mechanical advantage." This section sounds really good but I'm not sure if "...and compound can be employed..." makes sense. raptor 01:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Modern crossbows are often made with a similar technology to modern bows, but also sprinsteel is still in use. Composite materials such as fibreglass can be employed for either compound, recurve or both structures. Today strong compound crossbows still use pulleys or cams to provide a mechanical advantage." Better? Wandalstouring 02:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you take compound to mean:"a modern bow that has pulleys or cams at the end of each limb through which the bow string passes"?
 * Also, are you from the US (with regard to laws)?raptor 10:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "Modern crossbows are often made with a similar technology to modern bows, but also sprinsteel is still in use. Composite materials such as fibreglass can be employed for either compound (inactive material), recurve (active material) or simple bow (active material) structures. Today strong compound crossbows still use pulleys or cams to provide a mechanical advantage."


 * No I am from Germany. Wandalstouring 11:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Would you be able to find out about some modern German/European crossbow laws? raptor 14:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, just translate them from wikipedia.de Wandalstouring 16:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The Article
This is a really good article. Colonel Marksman 16:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

external link statement
In our external link is the following statement.

"Many people assume that compound bows are faster at launching bolts. This isn't necessarily the case. Due to the mechanical complexity of a compound system, the force applied to the bolt is at it's maximum only halfway through release. After the midway point power diminishes rapidly. Therefore a compound crossbow delivers uneven levels of force during the launch process."

I think it is wrong, because a compound has increasing accelaration all the way, while a recurve has decreasing accelaration. The heavier the projectile, the slower is the speed and thus, the longer is the way it is accelerated from a recurve system and efficiency increases. If somebody objects my opinion he should tell, but otherwise I think we should delet external links with wrong claims. Wandalstouring 23:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

anonymous edits
several edits without sources have been made by 81.7.56.229 and I am not sure whether the info provided is true.

"lath" - prods of crossbows are flat and straight, not thick and bend, but calling it a lath?

some with sickle-shaped heads to cut rope or rigging - sure, I know such arrows, but are there any known crossbow bolts with this feature? It sounds like a waste of energy to me.

"can be" several times heavier - The lighter they are, the less efficient is the weapon system in releasing stored energy.

trigger (originally "tricker") - I could find no source for this claim and I do not think this is the right place for such a discussion. Wandalstouring 16:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Structure
This article needs some restructuring to be readable again. Suggestions? Wandalstouring 02:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * How about begining with history, then talking about technology, types etc and finally modern uses and legal issues using a more modern point of view? cyclosarin/raptor 04:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe like:

cyclosarin 05:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Introduction
 * History
 * Types of Crossbow
 * Repeating Crossbow
 * Seige Crossbows
 * Ball???? Crossbows (the ones that fire balls)
 * Recurve Crossbow
 * Compound Crossbow
 * Pistol Crossbows
 * Crossbow Bolts
 * Crossbow Accessories
 * Cranks and other cocking aids,
 * Sights
 * other...
 * Crossbow Hunting
 * Crossbows in Sport
 * Other Uses
 * Legal Issues
 * (By Country)
 * See Also
 * External Links
 * References

Some changes:

Wandalstouring 20:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Introduction (what is the content? Perhaps some basics on how a crossbow works and what it is)
 * History
 * Types of Crossbow
 * Acceleration system
 * simple bow/lath Crossbow
 * Recurve Crossbow
 * Ballista and others using springs
 * Compound Crossbow
 * Type of weapon
 * Small hunting crossbow/gastraphates
 * Pistol Crossbows
 * Repeating Crossbow
 * Arbalest
 * Siege Crossbows/Oxybeles
 * Ballista (short summary with link to the main article)
 * Bowguns (firing stones or lead)
 * Crossbow projectiles
 * bolts
 * others
 * Crossbow Accessories
 * Cranks and other cocking aids,
 * Sights
 * other...
 * Crossbows in Sport
 * Crossbow Hunting
 * Crossbows in the modern military
 * Other Uses
 * Legal Issues
 * (By Country)
 * See Also
 * External Links
 * References


 * Wow that looks really good, nice work. I might try adapting some of the current material to this new structure on my subpage, see Plan. cyclosarin 06:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've given it a start but some sections, especially the types of crossbows have to be updated before I can update this article. I also uploaded another photograph of the reticle of a crossbow telescopic sight. cyclosarin 06:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This structure works well, could you give me a hand, especially with the types of crossbows section please? cyclosarin 07:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Restructure
This is a plan based on the new structure of the of the Crossbow article discussed above. 

Please edit it here or above, and comment here or on the talk page. If no one objects I was hoping to finish this and add the new content to the main article. cyclosarin 02:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Can anyone please comment on this or edit it? In my opinion this could be used as the main article if the Technology section is integrated into this article and the middle sections are fleshed out. cyclosarin 02:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've almost filled the sections could someone maybe work on the Oxybeles section, pistol crossbows and crossbows in sport/target shooting? cyclosarin 02:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

When the last sections have content in them does anyone object to adding this to the main article? cyclosarin 12:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)