Talk:Crossplay (cosplay)

Unclear
The discussion of female and male crossplay is all very unclear... Is "male crossplay" males dressing as females, or males dressing as females?

Also, in my experience, which is not to be taken as fact, it is more common (recently, anyway) for females to dress as male characters at US Conventions. Nowadays many conventions are fairly evenly balanced in terms of male/female attendees, and since there's no particular social stigma for female to male crossplaying, it is widely done.

--JimboOmega 01:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

At some point the accuracy of the article has been damaged - women crossplaying as male characters is dominant in the US, but men crossplaying as female characters is more common in the UK and Japan.

10:59, 12 August 2005 202.213.224.208

In Kochikame
There are many "crossplayers" in the comic of Kochikame.

For instance, 聖羅 無々 is a "crossplayer" of Sailor Moon

I've also heard another intresting character named 伝嬢 雨亭裸. I am not sure, but he sounds to be a male, and he is a crossplayer of Utena Tenjou. AirBa 10:10, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Gender not sex
opposite gender not opposite sex. I am making that correction. Gender is the social construct of the dicodemy of what we think of as masculinity and feminity. sex refers to the genetic reproductive role. Fictional charactors only have gender thus the correction. 69.171.135.10 04:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Fictional characters literally have neither. They are generally portrayed as having both. --Random832 22:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Man-Faye?
I find it more than a bit insulting to see Man-Faye as being the single (and quite predominant) image provided for this article.

I think it would be both fairer and more accurate to show both sides of crossplay: the "joke" variety (such as Man-Faye), and the "masquerade" variety (such as Anja, the German crossplayer listed in the external links).

On an unrelated note, I'm going to add a new link to the External Links section: a very detailed article about crossplay that was recently published on TokyoPop's website.

WikiZipo 07:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Techniques; Too much emphasis on MtF
While I agree that there is a lot less information readily available for MtF crossplays, and that there is more of a social stigma attached to it, I think that the article is leaning too heavily towards being more of an MtF article.

Might have something to do with being written by an MtF crossplayer?

Also, should techniques be added? I'm debating.

Mukino 01:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Had you read my last edit before you posted this? I noticed that you did actually edit it yourself. Before I edited it, there was even less mention of FtM crossplay. I would like to write more, but i can't find much else to say except random thoughts and factoids.

Good idea removing it from the "transgender" category. Some who do it are TG, but I doubt they're a majority, and it's largely incidental -- crossplay is a fan activity, regular crossdressing is not.

WikiZipo 11:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't even find your last edit; sorry.

I was going to add my own thoughts on FtM crossplayers, being one myself, but I was booted off the computer before I could. I'll add to what we've got for an article now, though.

Mukino 22:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm being a little confusing; I'm using my Crossplay.net nickname here so people there will know who I am. Here is the article before and after my initial major edit: Before, After

WikiZipo 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah; I see what you mean.

Mukino 02:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. - I just registered an account for this nick and changed all instances of it in the Talk page, so hopefully this will alleviate confusion. Rather than "Zipo" I am now "WikiZipo" (original nick was taken, unsurprisingly).

WikiZipo 04:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Genderplay Crossplay and Man Faye
I just found Man Fayes place in the Cosmos while working on an outline for this article. Please read the Gendefuck article in Wikipedia first to help understand this. I used much from the GF definition and will list my changes and reasons.

Genderplay Crossplay is a costumed gender performance which plays with or parodys traditional gender roles and perceptions and issues. Genderplay Crossplay is generally an intentional attempt to present a confusing gender identity which contributes to dismantling the perception of a gender binary.

I changed the term from Genderfuck to Genderplay Crossplay. Removeing the F___ word makes it more acceptable to the under 18 portion of the community which is a large portion of the community. It also makes it more acceptable to the people that don't require shock value in a word to understand a concept. The word “Play” actually describes what is going on and the F___ word does not describe anything specific. But mainly I think Genderplay Crossplay is a kinder and more accurate word for Man Faye as a person.

I also included the word parody in the definition because it happens.

I don't think the majority of the Crossplayers are purposly trying to dismantle or make statements about anything. We are just trying to be ourselves and have a fun time. I think this can be one part of our definition also. --JTH01 17:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Parody Crossplay would only be considered Genderplay Crossplay if the person was purposly sending mixed gender signals. Parody with clear gender signals would just be plain Parody Crossplay. --JTH01 01:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Major Axe Work and insertion of outline
I just restructured the article around an outline I developed. It is from my limited point of view but it is something that others can add to, build around and delete as necessary. Crossplay is a modern term and will be hard to find citations. The best I can offer is consensus from crossplay.net. Any readers of this entry should be aware of these limitations. --JTH01 17:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. :) I also find it hellaciously difficult to cite things when terms like cosplay and crossplay are filled with so much opinion, especially crossplay.

I'll work with the outline you've got.

Mukino 22:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Mukino Thank You for Your contribution. The article will continue to be lopsided until people contribute enough to make it a full article. Please be specific when pointing out what you feel to be opinions. In a sense, until strong consensus is built for specific topic or valid citations are found, much of this article will continue to be from a limited point of view.

I invite you to join the discussion at crossplay.net Could you state the country you are from to help give a perspective of your viewpoint. In the U.S. it seems like it is accepted for women to wear mens clothing in normal life which is a contradiction of your obsevation if you are from the U.S. (but feel free to correct me on this.) The overall acceptance of Crossplaying in the Cosplay community is an important point to be made.

Since I have almost zero citations at this time, I am depending on consensus from forums at crossplay.net for the credibility of this article. --74.71.220.179 02:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm experienced with writing opinionated essays, so I often don't recognise when I've put something in that could be construed as biased.


 * I've already been in the discussion at crossplay.net. Also, I'm from Canada. I do think that the social stigma for FtM in the way I've presented it is accurate, because even though it's acceptable nowadays for women to wear clothing styled after men's fashion, there are still plenty of people who would think such things about wearing actual men's clothing (I know quite a few people who would think I were transgendered if I suddenly came to school wearing nothing but male clothing). Mukino 17:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Aw Geez Mukino, I thought everyone in Canada was totaly cool ... Sorry to hear there are still idiots. --JTH01 19:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The article has been expanded, and this is starting to be a good thing, but for the moment I think it's a bit of a mess. A good deal of information has been completely removed for MtF, some of which I wrote a good deal for. I don't take it as any personal insult that it's been removed, since it wasn't pulitzer-prize winning material anyway, but I think it shouldn't be removed until it is replaced by something else, unless of course it was inaccurate.

The outline gives contributing users an idea of one direction this entry could go, but for anyone looking for definitions it looks pretty messy. I think the outline should be commented out. That way, anyone editing the page can see your notes in as much detail as you wish to provide, but the article will remain more clean and organized on the "outside."

If you want to learn how to do more with Wiki's various tags (such as "commenting out" text), just ask, and I'm sure someone will be happy to assist.

WikiZipo 04:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Potential citation sites
There isn't any/much information in the article that these can be used to support at the moment, but I think that they can be useful in the future (feel free to shoot me down).

http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=25277 http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=90579 http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=76543 http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=91900 http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=78915 http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=83285 http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=65895

Some of them are repeat threads, but might have some useful information if perused.

(Gah, forgot to sign this) - Mukino 22:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Zipo I said I took an Axe to the article. Perhaps I was not very careful. But I think those entries were joke and parody entries which made the article lopsided towards that aspect. Perhaps reenter them under Genderplay (if that term even lasts). Also FtoM can also "Genderplay" so I think it deserves a section of its own. But I think the main efforts should be put into mainstream crossplay first.

Think of the outline as mini stubs. The headings may be totally inappropriate. You have a much greater knowledge here and perhaps you can develop a better list of topics to be expanded.

I'll be leaving on a road trip shortly and may not be in touch for a while. Thanks for working on this. This Wiki entry was how I found the crossplay.net community.

--JTH01 19:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy
There's nothing in here about the mere fact that a striking percentage of male Anime characters appear extremely androgynous, and thus if one would want to cosplay them accurately one would have to be female.

Forums
Using forums as a source is a bit dodgy. Rich Farmbrough, 23:16 9 February 2008 (GMT).

The challenge is that most of the crossplay phenomenon is undocumented except in photo format. The only site on the net to be dedicated solely to crossplay is www.crossplay.net, and most of its content is in the forums (and, of course, photo gallery). The same goes for cosplay.com, which has a rich deposit of crossplay resources but again stores all their FAQs and instructionals in their forums.

There is one significant article on a major website we have found that covers the subject (the TokyoPop article cited at the bottom), but if we just quoted that throughout the whole entry there'd be too little variation of sources.

WikiZipo (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:36, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Aria H. Kanzaki by 結佳梨Yukari 01.jpg

Requested move 25 September 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus  Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 17:58, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Crossplay → Crossplay (cosplay) – There is WP:NOPRIMARY between this and cross-platform play, which is commonly called crossplay. I believe a disambiguation page should be made at crossplay linking to both to be more precise and eliminate confusion. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 14:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose as WP:OVERPRECISION. No need for a title change. There's already a hatnote pointing to cross-platform play on this article, just as good as a dab page for someone who might be confused. Station1 (talk) 17:41, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * My argument is that crossplay is a rather common term for cross-platform play, to the point it would be WP:ASTONISHing for someone searching for it to arrive here. A search for "crossplay" among VG sources brings up more mentions of cross-platform play than the cosplaying term. The term is totally ambiguous at best.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:52, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Even if crossplay is totally ambiguous, the ambiguity is resolved by the hatnote. A hatnote serves precisely the same function as a dab page, but without inconveniencing those readers who are in fact seeking the title's current topic. Under the current setup, people wanting this topic are on the correct page, while those seeking cross-platform play are one click away. If the proposal is put into effect, everyone landing on this title will be one click away. Station1 (talk) 07:05, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Station1 and WP:ONEOTHER.  Bait30   Talk 2 me pls? 06:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 5 August 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: page moved to Crossplay (cosplay). Muhibm0307 (talk) 05:37, 12 August 2021 (UTC) Muhibm0307 (talk) 05:37, 12 August 2021 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Crossplay → Crossplay (cosplay) – As with the previous move discussion, there is WP:NOPRIMARY for the term in question, as it is at least equally likely for it to be used in a gaming context (referring to Cross-platform play) than a cosplaying one. The argument of WP:ONEOTHER used in the previous discussion does not apply, since the word has no primary topic. Crossplay should be made a disambiguation page. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 00:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it's arguable that this may be a case for a primary redirect, with the gaming term as the primary here. But regardless, the proposed move would be necessary, as the cosplay term is certainly not the primary here.--Yaksar (let's chat) 00:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually I'm going to make a clearer !vote: Support, but with the primary redirect going to Cross-platform play, which appears to dominate both usage and page views. But I also certainly do not oppose the proposed move, since once this page is not at the base name it will also be easier to confirm if the other is a primary. --Yaksar (let's chat) 01:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Support this gets 1,557 views compared with 4,184 for Cross-platform play, Google also returns cross-platform play first. I wouldn't primary redirect though since I don't think the views are within order of magnitude to have that especially given that people may have got to cross-platform play by typing that.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:43, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose for exactly the same reasons as the previous RM (please see above). A dab page hurts people looking for this article while offering no benefit to someone looking for the one other article beyond what the hatnote already provides. The proposal is not for a primary redirect. Station1 (talk) 19:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. WP:ONEOTHER, which was the justification for the previous RM, requires a primary topic; I'm not convinced that the article currently at Crossplay is one, given its lower pageviews. 162 etc. (talk) 06:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.