Talk:Crotalus (instrument)

category and definitioon
The deviceses in question are clearly clappers and rathchets. One sorce sats "clapper (crotalus)". Maybe some other source says "rattle", but "rattle" is also a synonym of ratchet. Neither of tghem is shaken idiophone, i.e., Rattle (percussion instrument). Therefore the category is inapproopriate. Loew Galitz (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Also "krotalon" is not a rattle either: it is a clapper (musical instrument). So the source that translater crotalus as rattle is sloppy in terms of mysical instrments.Loew Galitz (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * multiple sources state that the term evolved from the word krotalon, where if meant rattle. Besides the source you've repeatedly removed (without citing anything else), here is another article discussion the instrument. Another source, the The Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere is cited on the Crotalus snake genus article. Here, too, "krotalon" means "rattle" (which makes sense, as the genus refers to rattlesnake species). Unless you can muster a source that says this definition is errant, I have two reliable and one semi-reliable sources that contend for the etymology I provided. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Here is another academic reference of "rattle" being an accepted definition of krotalon. It would seem that, given typical American English usage, "rattle" is a synonym. I wrote this article in American English, and discounting a source because it uses a well-documented etymology is inappropriate without issue-specific sources. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Whatever these sources say, I cited you an Encyclopedia Britannica article on "krotalon". And it is clearly not a rattle. The sources you mention are not of expertise on ancient Greek musical instruments. Here is a ref from Greek-English Lexicon:, which translates it as "clapper". Same with crotalum . There is nothing unusual that uneducated translation proliferate. However we in Wikipedia have to struggle for preciseness. You cannot use sources about snakes to find meanings of Greek words. You have to use direct sources. Loew Galitz (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You cited material that makes no reference to the liturgical crotalus, describing different items. I merely demonstrated that the term evolved and diverged to also refer to rattles, however imperfect that may be. You are using WP:SYNTH to discount multiple sources that explicitly describe the etymology of the topic of this article using sources that make no reference to it. When I did the same to show you that those sources you removed were not "ignorant", you said they were irrelevant. You can cite as many sources as you like about Greek cymbals, but the fact is clear that the word "rattle" appears to be an appropriate (and sourced!) translation of the word krotalon. ~ 23:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Another thing: our job at Wikipedia is to match a high standard of reliable sourcing. However, it is not our job to discount reliable sources simply because we have a hunch they're wrong. Unless there is sincere reason to believe something is false—which there is not in this case, as a result of the various other translations of the term into "rattle"—we are to follow the reliable sourcing. ~ 23:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The sources you cite are not reliable about the translation of the word because they lack appropriate expertise. And mine is not a "hunch": I cited you three extremely appropriate sources: EB and classical dictionaries. And they disagree your source about rattlesnake in terms of the meaning of the Greek word. In case of contradictions in sources we use the sources which are closest to the subject in question, which is the meaning of the Greek word.  Loew Galitz (talk) 00:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Again, these are sources regarding Ancient Greek practice. I trust a liturgical historian would know more about the etymology of a niche Christian liturgical word than a dictionary that does not cover the subject at all. Once again, you are discounting reliable sources not because they disagree, but because they simply don't cover it. Please not insert unsourced information. That's the last I have to say on this time-sink. Thank you for improving the wiki as you know how, even if I disagree with you here. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)