Talk:Crown Heights Tenant Union

Review and moving forward
@Firefangledfeathers thanks for cleaning up the page! I'm making this section here so we can discuss moving forward with the article off user talk pages lol. Also pinging in @Beccaynr and @Ppt91 since I'd also appreciate your help reviewing too!

Quick questions to start us off: TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 03:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Are there NPOV problems to be addressed? I can't help but admit I'm rooting for them lol, but at the same time the sources and facts make it hard for me not too. I want to make sure the language/tone is neutral and encyclopedic.
 * 2) How's the structure and formatting look? How can we organize the article better?
 * 3) Are there any questionable sources that need to be addressed?
 * 4) Any parts with excessive detail in need of trimming?
 * 5) What main points do you think the lead should cover? I'm thinking 1) their origins, 2) their activities, 3) their structure. Not sure whether to flip 2 and 3 though.


 * I just got started with some copyediting. You'll have seen that I removed some non-notable names of people accused of wrongdoing. I do think some of the paragraphs near the end involve CHTU only tangentially, and some could probably be condensed and aggregated, a la "The CHTU also supported protests against x, y, and z." More weighty feedback to come, but I'll probably keep going with the mostly ce work for a while. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:14, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * TheTranarchist, I'm done with the copy edit! I do think some aggregation of the various cases would help, especially ones where CHTU is just a passing mention in the story (e.g Albany Ave, Park Place). There's also some info in the lead and infobox that isn't found in the body. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the ping, but it will probably be a bit before I can fully focus on this. Beccaynr (talk) 03:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping! I'll need some more time to look into NPOV and sources, though I will say for How's the structure and formatting look? How can we organize the article better? the structure seems ok overall and Any parts with excessive detail in need of trimming? is what I'd focus on. It looks like some sections of Activities are wordy and deviate from summary into detail that might not be of interest to the casual reader. At the same time, lead seems too short relative to the rest. Those are just some quick thoughts and I'll be happy to help as much as I can along the way.  Ppt91    talk   16:26, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem, there's WP:NODEADLINES! I'll get started trying to trim down some of the excessive detail. For the lead, I haven't had a chance to really update it yet and wanted some comments on what we should include based on the state of the body atm first. If you think it would be easier to improve once it's more detailed as opposed to sorting it out on talk prior, I could update it as best as possible before asking for a review of how well it follows the body. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 05:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:NONPROFIT notability
(refactored into a separate section to help organize discussion topics)
 * CHTU is briefly mentioned here, with context: She Couldn’t Afford Her Rent And Had Nowhere To Turn. That’s When She Joined A Tenant Union. (Buzzfeed News, 2020). Beccaynr (talk) 05:50, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd seen that while combing though articles, but it seemed to trivial a mention to include at the time. Quoting here to make referencing easier: Esteban Girón has been organizing tenants in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, since 2013, but has seen the number of people participating in their community meetings quadruple in recent months. His hyperlocal volunteer group, the Crown Heights Tenant Union, which covers one neighborhood, joined forces with the Brooklyn Eviction Defense during the pandemic. On reflection, it may be useful to add their connections with BED to the lead and use this reference to back it up (as they're already mentioned a lot in the article I believe). TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:46, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I started conducting research because it can be challenging to establish notability for a local nonprofit organization per the WP:NONPROFIT guideline, so my initial focus is on the non-local coverage, e.g. The Guardian, 2016, The Nation, 2020. There is also the 2014 NYT source that appears filed as regional coverage. My initial sense is that sources like these can help make a section about this local organization WP:DUE in the Tenants union article (which from my view, would also generally benefit from expansion), but I also have some general concerns about whether this local organization has sufficient support for a standalone article at this time based on my initial review and applicable policies and guidelines. I'm sorry to only provide general feedback without having much time to expand on it, but please let me know if you have questions/concerns/thoughts about this and I will try to respond when I can. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 16:18, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback! I was thinking about expanding the Tenants union after this one! Since that one will probably require reading a lot of books and scholarly sources I wanted to get my feet wet with this first one lol. I'd want to expand the article generally before starting to include specific modern notable unions. Also tempted to propose a tenant unions/rights edit-a-thon in some relevant wiki-projects since there are quite a few I've came across that probably merit their own articles.
 * For some WP:SIRS for establishing notability: The Indypendent (2014), In These Times (2015) (Couldn't find at RSN but it seems a solid source with a clear editorial board/policy), The Inypendent (2016) (not sure if this qualifies as an interview), and the Guardian 2016. Additionally, there's a chapter in "Tales of Two Cities: The Best and Worst of Times in Today's New York" called "A Block Divided Against Itself" (available as an epub via libgen) which provides an autobiographical account of gentrification and tenant organizing in NYC that provides the CHTU SIGCOV. I think many not listed but present in the article also qualify as WP:SIGCOV since they discuss in-depth particular activities of the org and then touch on the org itself, fitting in between "more than a trivial mention" and "the main content". I think those all considered together are enough to meet WP:ORGCRIT but can try and find more to make sure the case is solid! I also think that given the extensive coverage of their activities they merit a standalone article, as I also can't see any articles where we could include them instead. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 05:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The WP:NONPROFIT guideline includes, Organizations whose activities are local in scope (e.g., a school or club) can be considered notable if there is substantial verifiable evidence of coverage by reliable independent sources outside the organization's local area. So to review some of the sources identified: As a general article construction comment, my preference is to start with the strongest sources supporting notability to build the core of the article. This also helps make it clear to reviewers as to which sources should be reviewed to most efficiently assess notability, because quality, not quantity is the key, and an article bombarded with references, especially local sources, can raise concerns. Basically, the best sources should usually be the most-cited sources, and can also help identify the most notable aspects of the subject, which can help guide the organization of the article, and then the lead. Beccaynr (talk) 19:04, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The Indypendent (2014) - this source, according to its About us page, is based in Brooklyn, which is the local area of the organization. In addition, while this page mentions winning "more than 50 awards from New York Community Media Alliance for excellence in journalism" it also says the "newspaper is produced by a small paid staff working in tandem with a network of volunteer contributors" and I am not finding editorial standards nor information about the author of the 2014 source. With regard to the depth and independence of the 2014 source, there is a fair amount of reliance on the statements by CHTU organizers, e.g. " said Cea Weaver, who works closely with the tenant union ", "Girón [...] claims", "what he said", "Girón told The Indypendent", "organizers say", "the tenant union plans". There is also independent context, commentary, and an overview of the history of the first year of the organization, but there seem to be a variety of issues that weigh against this source as helpful for supporting notability per WP:NONPROFIT.
 * By contrast, the In These Times About page clearly identifies its staff and editorial policies, and they are based in Chicago, and the author of the 2015 source is clearly identified. As to depth and independence, the In These Times (2015) source includes some context and commentary, but also includes substantial quotes and paraphrasing from "Joel Feingold, an Occupy veteran who helped found the group in October 2013" and "Roger Myers, a member of CHTU who has lived in Crown Heights for more than 40 years". I think this is a closer call with regard to support for notability per WP:NONPROFIT, but from my view, there are at least 5 grafs of direct and independent content in this nonlocal coverage that appears reliable.
 * a chapter in "Tales of Two Cities: The Best and Worst of Times in Today's New York" called "A Block Divided Against Itself" (available as an epub via libgen) which provides an autobiographical account: I can access a partial preview via GBooks, but autobiography is likely problematic for independence of this source.


 * Thank you for your feedback! I see you're on a wiki-break so no pressure to respond - hope you feel better soon! Below I'm making a centralized chronological list of national/nonlocal sources providing SIGCOV for establishing notability and to keep in mind when I'm revising the article per your notes.
 * New York Times (2014): While it's filed as NYRegion, the NYT is an important enough source to bear it in mind, and it's stronger than more localized papers such as the Brooklyn Paper given how large the NY Region is and small Crown Heights is comparatively.
 * In These Times (2014)
 * The Guardian (2016)
 * The Real Deal (2019): 1 paragraph, but very info-packed one establishing some of their importance in NY politics. They've also briefly mentioned the CHTU in reference to one of their eviction defenses and subsequent court support a few times.
 * The Nation (2020): Not sure if this qualifies as SIGCOV, as it's a quote and 2 mentions of the CHTU being involved rallying an eviction defense.
 * TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, TheTranarchist - I am still in the midst of herding the cats of my medical care, but I am optimistic about a good outcome. In the meantime, please note that The Real Deal is a trade publication, so it is probably not one of the better sources (see e.g. the discussion in WP:ORGIND), and the mention in the source listed above does not seem particularly direct or in-depth, based on my quick review - there is more in the source about one of the founders, but the limitations of WP:INHERITORG should also be considered. But I am tending to think the coverage in The Nation is more significant because I read it as a report on the impact of CHTU organizing, e.g. an e-mail about the action via the Crown Heights Tenant Union listserv, as well as the commentary comparing the action with the BLM movement, along with As Inman pointed out, “Black homes matter.” Fighting for Black housing is fighting for Black lives. The role of the CHTU is more interwoven into the reporting and commentary in this source, so this seems to be more significant coverage. Cheers, Beccaynr (talk) 01:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Images
I've been trying to find some good images for the article but I don't have much experience with adding images (apart from logos) so I'd like some feedback. From what I've seen in the sources, the Urban Homesteading Assistance Board has provided a lot of pictures of them to various news agencies, and I also found these images from them on flickr that seem to qualify as free use. Would it be appropriate to add some of those? If so, any stand out as particularly good? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The Flickr images you linked are not compatibly licensed. Any license that restricts commercial use won't work for us. I don't think this is a case for non-free files, as non-free replacements could reasonably be created. You might try reaching out to the group via email or social media to see if they're willing to release an image or two. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I just shot them an email asking them to put a few images into the public domain we can use: 1) the founders or an early meeting 2) one of an eviction defense or march, and 3) one of their collaborations with the Illuminator collective. I'm about to rework the article a little more and cut down it's size, but I think I got the lead/infobox/body in sync. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:22, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Heads up, last night I got a reply back from the CHTU so we should be able to add some images soon! Not sure about a precise timeline but things are moving forward. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:24, 1 April 2023 (UTC)