Talk:Cruthin

Deletion of Infobox
An old infobox is being deleted by abusive editors pushing a revisionist point-of-view, using unilateral declarations of "nonsense" to enforce their edits & POV, etc. When I ran across this page years ago, it had the infobox. I was surprised by the information, so I began researching the topic and found many old histories. Recently I found references to the founder Ollamh Fodhla & his six successors being called "the seven Cruithnian kings that ruled over Ireland". I thought I would update the infobox, and my edit alerted new editors to begin vandalizing the page. 72.214.191.126 (talk) 22:59, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
 * On the contrary - an unhinged, POV-pushing, Original-Research peddling, user is acting in bad faith by continuing to re-insert unsourced, nonsensical material to the article, Cagwinn (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Croats
''There seems to be a connection between the ALPS and ALB.ANIA, with the *ALP, *ALB root associated with mountains. Now, Celtic culture is thought to have arisen in the Alps (Haltstadtt culture), and to this day Britain is called Albion (cf. M. Gibson's war cry in Braveheart, "Alba gu brath!"). My point is, the CROAT people live in Albania.... and the Cruithne live in Albion... could there be a connection?'' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs).


 * No. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.97.195 (talk) 19:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * None whatsoever.104.169.26.177 (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Problems
There are a number of problems with the content as stated. In particular:


 * It is far from certain that the Picts spoke a Celtic (or even Indo-European) language, as the article on the Picts states.

--Saforrest 20:18, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * It is apparently false to say, as the article does, that the custom of body-painting had died out among all other Celts at the time of Roman contact. This custom was still practised among the British and Irish, as Caesar said in his Gallic Wars.

I've revised the bit about the Cruithne being identified with Picts to make it clear that this derives from O'Rahilly's model, which is influential but not universally accepted. As for the body-painting, it's true that Caesar refers to the practice in Britain (although he doesn't mention Ireland) in the 1st century BC. However the word Pict first appears in Roman writings about the 3rd century, so by the time the Romans were calling them that the practice had died out elsewhere. --Nicknack009 21:55, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

To the user (66.32.112.142) who changed this article to read that the Cruithne were non-Celtic and non-Indo-European, I've reverted what you wrote because it distorted O'Rahilly's argument. It may be that the Cruithne were not Celtic-speaking, but O'Rahilly argued that they were, and didn't claim they were the first ethnic group to inhabit the British Isles as you had him say. O'Rahilly's arguments are far from universally accepted and I'm sure other scholars claim otherwise, but I'd ask you to make their arguments without making a scholar you don't agree with appear to say something he didn't, and cite sources. --Nicknack009 18:10, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid that the reliance of this article on a single view, one which which is not the mainstream view of scholars makes it highly unreliable. I suggest that a substantial rewrite will be required in order to represent current knowledge about the historical Cruithne.

Is there any historical evidence of a group called the Cruithne in Ireland, or of any non-Gaelic-speaking ethnic group, either in O'Rahilly's book or elsewhere? If so, can that be summarized in this article? At the moment it is vague on specifics. Lfp 20:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)LFP.


 * To say that O'Rahilly's views are "not universally accepted" is today, I think, a huge understatement. It's unfortunate that he seems to be the major reference for this article.  ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 00:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The article states that the Annals of Ulster refers to a deceased County Down man in 698 as "nepos Predani", the Latin form of a "grandson of the Cruithne man". I've checked both the CELT translation and MS Rawl B 489 and cannot find that latin quote under the year 698 or proximate years. This statement would therefore seem to require correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.239.233 (talk) 19:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The article states that the P-Celtic Pruteni is recorded in Ancient Greek as pryteni and refers to O' Rahilly. Could anyone check whether in fact such a Greek form as 'πρυτενι' actually exists and whether O' Rahilly says it does? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.239.233 (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
IPA please? —Keenan Pepper 00:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody? —Keenan Pepper 00:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not familiar with IPA tbh. Is there a list of people that do know it? Personally, I think phonetic spellings are far more useful to the average reader in any case. --Mal 15:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, IPA is a phonetic spelling. What part of IPA chart for English is hard to understand? —Keenan Pepper 18:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * oʊ ɑː dʒ ʍ θ and tʃ.. for example! --Mal 18:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Those are all right there in the chart... I don't understand the problem... —Keenan Pepper 20:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably because you are familiar with it. I, on the other hand, am not. I haven't a clue what dʒ is.. d3? .. dz..? Or oʊ.. what's that, o +upside-down omega? ɑː = a plus broken small capital I..? --Mal 05:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The point of the chart is that you don't have to know what the symbols mean already. You just find them in the chart and it tells you what sounds they correspond to... Look, this conversation is getting ridiculous. If you know how to pronounce it, just write the pronunciation in whatever form you want, and then I'll try to decipher what it means. —Keenan Pepper 23:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think its getting ridiculous. I was making a point - that point being that, by looking at the IPA symbols, I have no idea how to pronounce any given word. I would have to look up the IPA table, decypher each 'code' by looking back and forth between the table and the article, and then try to put it all together. By making this point I was trying to be helpful.
 * However, I suspect its either policy or a guideline that IPA exists alongside certain types of words. I'm not quite sure how to pronounce Cruithne (I've always said "Cru-ith-nee"), but the term Cruthin is more familiar to me. I'm pretty sure its pronounced as it appears: "Cruth-in". Hope that helps. --Mal 19:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I had another look at my example, and I should have noted that the "cruth" part should be pronounced with a roo, as in crew - as opposed to a ruh sound as with rough. --Mal 01:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the article on the name of the asteroid 3753 Cruithne it's pronounced (English krew-een'-yə; Modern Irish ['krɪnʲə] krin'-nyə). Never having heard the word I can't comment either way~ Brother William 15:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, after a short bit of research I've stumbled upon a pronounciation that rings a bell with me. The pronounciation could be "creen-ya" and apparently this later manifested itself as the pejorative word "creenie" in the Scots language. --Mal 01:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that the perjoration was brought into Scotland to differentiate between Romanies and our own travellers and tinkers. What nobody seems to mention is the present day spread of the surname Walsh/Welch (modern Irish English Brannagh ie Briton) in Ireland. Surely descendants of the Cruithne/ Priteni, who if one goes by the traditions, are one and the same as Picts: the famous Penn/Ceann linguistic difference very obvious.Brendandh 22:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What's your point about the Walsh surname? I always understood it was a Cambro-Norman import.--Shtove 21:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been researching the Cruithin for over 10 years. Although I had read the term from time to time in books mainly on the Celts: in 1996 I saw a multi-cultural project on display at the public library in Derry, N. Ireland in which living people identify themselves with the Cruithin. I later did research at the National Library in Dublin on the Cruithin and read the bood by Iain Adamson which is an amatuer effort worthy of consideration. Oddly there is resistance towards the Cruithin although they have been written of since serious studies of the Celts have been made. Skene collected most of the material in Gaelic and Latin and Greek which concern us nearly a 150 years ago. He uses the term. So do such diverse authors as the Chadwicks, the Lang's and P.B.Ellis as well as dozens of others. Why do some want to call them mythical? I'd love to read the myths, where are they? The Red Hand may qualify although I have yet to see a well written account of it.

Although the term Pict is widely used it is certainly not the end of the story. The history of the Western Islands is rather complex and dynamic. More needs to be recovered regarding the various cultures which co-existed for thousands of years together. I understand myself to be related to Celts and Cruithin. I personally am offended by the Cruithin being called "semi-mythical" how many references do a people make? Roger Anderson Hull

PS I think the term is related to the ancient trade language of Koine Greek and relates to the use of Barley,(Krithinou. This seems to be a cognate of Scotch as well perhaps. In other words, the Cruithin grew, malted and brewed beer earlier than much of the West. This is my personal speculation but I have discoused it with some authorities, especially those interestes in the Celts and the history of beer making. I think the Cruithin were also likely early converts to Christianity and were practiceing the common habit of people of writting themselves into the Bible. Please write,Cruthi@juno.com also I have a paper on Beer, the Celts and Cruithin that I am willing to E-mail.


 * As a native Irish speaker, I can tell you that Cruithne is pronounced /krihnə/ or /krihənə/. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Laois
The county was formerly known as Queen's County, but up till it's countification (?) in the 1550's the territory went by the anglicised name Leix (under the rule of the O'Moores, I think). Laois is hardly a revival of the name - the territory has always been known as such. Same applies to Breffni, the Owls, the Brenny, the Ards etc.--Shtove 17:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Merging
There seems to be no reason to merge this article with Picts. The Jackson quotation ("... were not Picts, had no connection with the Picts ...") is repeated approvingly by Ó Cróinín in Early Medieval Ireland at pp. 48–49. Marjorie Anderson, Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland, at p. 130, says that there were no Irish Picts until Conall Mageoghagan made a hash of translating the so-called Annals of Clonmacnoise. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I merged it because it was stubby. If there are objections, I'll leave a merge note up for further discussion, no hurry. If we can compile a discussion of the Cruithne as independent of the Picts, I have no objection to a standalone article. dab (𒁳) 12:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's around 200 words. It would be much longer if we added something on "Cruthinian identity in modern Northern Ireland". Longer again if someone can find a discussion of the meaning of "Cruthin" in made-up Irish genealogies. And while we're here, I'd rename this either Cruthin or Cruithni because parentheses are ugly and cruithne appears to be wrong. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

ok, let's do it then. I agree this can well remain a standalone article if expanded along these lines. Discussion of the name at Picts is still warranted, with a link to this article. dab (𒁳) 13:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I oppose merging. Significant changes would have to be made to the Picts article and it's not even clear what, if any, relationship there is between Picts and Cruithni.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 00:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's been a month now and the proposal has had no support so I'm going to remove the merger tag.

3753 Cruithne
Am I the only one who came here looking for 3753 Cruithne, a.k.a. "Earth's second moon"? If not, it might be worth linking to it, disambiguifying, putting in a reference at the top, or whatever it is that the more wiki-versed among us tend to do. Cheers! Audionaut (talk) 09:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah. There is a link, I see. Sorry... Audionaut (talk) 09:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

King List of the Picts
The Pictish Chronicle has as the first King of the Picts as the eponymous "Cruidne filius Cinge, pater Pictorum habitantium in hac insula. C annis regnavit". This is entirely cognate with the eponymous founder of Gaeldom, Goídel Glas. The seven sons of Cruidne son of Cinge, also give their names to the ancient divisions of Alba (taken from the article on the Picts):
 * Cait, situated in modern Caithness and Sutherland
 * Ce, situated in modern Mar and Buchan
 * Circinn, perhaps situated in modern Angus and the Mearns
 * Fib, the modern Fife, known to this day as 'the Kingdom of Fife'
 * Fidach, location unknown
 * Fotla, modern Atholl (Ath-Fotla)
 * Fortriu, cognate with the Verturiones of the Romans; recently shown to be centered around Moray

There certainly should be more on this, in this article, than Ó Cróinín and Jackson's dismissal of the notion that the historic Cruthin were not in some way connected with the Picts. Brendandh (talk) 11:16, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

county Londonderry v. Derry
There seems to be disagreement over the use of county Derry or county LondonDerry. Which is correct, and why? Thanks Jim1138 (talk) 02:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * See DERRY. The policy is to use Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. --Nicknack009 (talk) 08:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Derry is correct. Londonderry is the name given to it by the government of the gerrymandered British "state" which continues to occupy the north of Ireland. --SnorlaxMyther (talk 01:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * How is Derry correct for something, by your own admission, the British government created? Canterbury Tail   talk  03:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Because the British presence in Ireland is illegal as the state of "Northern Ireland" was created without the consent of the majority of the (at the time) 32 county state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SnorlaxMyther (talk • contribs) 15:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Re the supposed "middle road" proposed by Brendandh - WP:DERRY is already a compromise, and one that's clear and works pretty well, so please don't undermine it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:15, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Cruthin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081121135501/http://www.lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume8/volume8_3.html to http://www.lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume8/volume8_3.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Not trying to come off as agonistic here, but Alex Wolfs theory is really daft and why not included other theories on this page alongside wolfs?
I'm by no means an expert when it comes to this subject so feel free to correct me here, but from what I gathered skimming wolfs theory a while back his reasoning and evidence for connecting the kingdom of Dál Riata to the Cruthin and in-turn being descendant from the Epidi is really wafer thin and he makes countless leaps of supposition. I'm paraphrasing here, but from what I gather his theory can be reduced down into two basic points. The first is that the Dal raitans had a famous horse god as their deity and Epidii means horse, so therefore the Dal raitans were descended from the Epidii. This evidence is absolutely tissue paper thin and silly even at face value. Horse Deities in ancient Ireland where incredibly ubiquitous so to suggest there is a connection based on that is very unlikely. The second piece of evidence he puts forward is the idea that dal riatia was part of the same country as the chruthin this is to say that dal raita was part of the Cruthin, but this assumption is based on the idea that dal raita bordered in chruthin territory so it must have been part of the same country right? This assumption completely ignores the fact that in ancient Ireland kingdoms would often trade commerce and goods by boat and that links between a country where quite often created by sea routes as much as land especially in places that hug the Irish sea. It's no coincidence then that the most common surname in Ireland is Murphy/ó Murchadha meaning sea warrior, so Dal Raita bordering a cruthin kingdom doesn't mean it was part of the cruthin. There are many historical examples of other countries bordering another country on both sides. Finally the dal raita genealogy is very clear that the dal riatians ancestors where the Iverni and Darini, which are not cruthin. To simply wave away the importance of their genealogy with little regard because you have a suspicion that you think it was motivated by political means is very foolish and frankly disrespectful. As if to say I know more about these peoples history than they do You can't just ignore such an important genealogy and claim it's just a total fabrication so you can make your theory fit, if we are going to ignore Irish genealogies completely than what else do we have?

Anyway, I'm wondering why Alex-wolf is giving a whole section and other theories on the cruthin are not, especially when alot of those theories are actually more plausible.