Talk:Cuba/Archive 1

This is the first Archive page for the Talk:Cuba page. The initial criteria used was that a topic must not have been discussed in the past three months to be moved here.

(Atheiest State)
Cuba is no longer an athiest state, Castro changed the wording to secular around the time of the Pope's visit. During the Pope's visit he also made December 25th a legal holiday, which it hadn't been for you know, 30 some odd years. Castro, though he rejected his Catholic upbringing, strongly encourages the trend of the now-defunct liberation theology, because he sees that it could be a strong ally of the state (see Fidel and Religion by Frei Betto, basically a transcript of his talks with Castro). If I have time later I'll fix this, but right now I don't want to risk adding my own opinions in because I'm rushing it. Anyone else wanna do it first? Liz ebcarter@gmail.com

(Various edits discussed)
I have removed "the most significant act of political repression in Latin America in a decade". This is not a fact, please look at Amnesty International reports on Americas for the last decade. Here is the link to the 2003 Summary http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/2am-index-eng.

October 11, 2004 (from johncsmith@btinternet.com)

I've replaced the 3rd, 4th and 5th paragraphs, I've placed the old ones below. Whoever wrote this reactionary, lying piece didn't bother to leave a note to explain to others why s/he did this.

"For several decades, Cuba received a large Soviet subsidy, whereby Cuba provided the Soviet Union with sugar and the Soviets provided Cuba with oil. Part of this oil was consumed by Cuba, the remainder was sold in the world market for a profit of several billion dollars. In return for this subsidy from the Soviet Union, Cuba supported communist insurgencies throughout Central America (Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Chile) and Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Ethiopia).   In Angola alone, Cuba had over 50,000 tropps.  The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 dealt Cuba a giant economic blow and when the Soviets stopped their $6 billion per year subsidy, the Cuban communist government called for "a special period." Despite being denied access to development aid from the IMF and World Bank (Cuba is in arrears to its Paris Club debtors to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars), Cuba's economy has not collapsed, although its per-capita income is still lower than it was in 1959. Cuba's economy today is roughly split into three parts: Agriculture and mining (tobacco, sugar, nickel, citrus), Tourism and remittances from Cuban-Americans in the United States.

"In 1994 the Clinton Administration enacted the Helms-Burton law. This law was enacted after the Cuban government shot down two private U.S. planes in International Waters.  The Helms Burton law, states, among other things that any foreign company that acquires property in Cuba that used to belong to a U.S. company will be subject to litigation.

"Currently, every country in the world is free to trade with Cuba. The country's major trading partners include Spain, France, Italy, Great Britain and Japan.  The economic embargo only applies to U.S. tourism.  U.S. agriculture companies are free to trade with Cuba provided that Cuba pays in hard currency.  All medical and humanitarian supplies are freely allowed to flow into Cuba.  American tourists who wish to visit Cuba mainly travel through Mexico or Canada.  Cuba's tourism industry has been severely damaged since September 11th.  As a "rogue state" that has consistently harbored terrorists (IRA, Colombian terrorists, African revolutionaries) many visitors have been fearful to visit the island.  Moreover, the Castro government recently arrested and imprisoned 75 independent journalists, artists and writers.  In 2002, the government killed a group of individuals attempting to escape the island."

Reasonable people disagree over whether a policy of paying production-based prices for sugar is a form of subsidy. No doubt both the EU and the US agressively subsidize agriculture, ESPECIALLY sugar; but the Comecon arrangement accomplishes the same thing. Regardless, this debate has no place in this article and so I have removed the following sentence: "This fair exchange is often erroneously described as a 'subsidy'."

--

Sunday 12 September 2004: I've rewritten parts of the Cuba article, to remove inaccuracies and hostile bias - from johncsmith@btinternet.com

--

Efghij, why did you remove the links to List of Cubans and List of places in Cuba? Wondering simply, Infrogmation 23:29 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, accidently deleted them while applying the template. Efghij

I moved Gregorio Fuentes from Writer (which he wasn't) to Other Figures. adiazpaz

question
I would like to know more about the lives of cubans. After so many years in socialism how is the economic distribution? was ever there a gini coefficient measured? Do all cubans with 26+ went to college? Can anyone give that answer (thats the kind of thiong you don´t google) --Zero00 14:46, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Why is the motto here different than in Spanish? 80.221.104.156 12:15, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The real figures of how many (percentage) of Cuban young people visit college might be found in the statistics of UNESCO.

It must be said that state sponsored "massivity" has dramatically dropped the "quality" of collegs and highschools in Cuba. In "my times" (I did highschool in Havana 1981-1984) there was an abysmal difference between elite or vocational education for a few and "normal/plain" school standards for the masses. I was lucky enough to study in a vocational highschool nearby Havana (called "V. I. Lenin"). When I started university studies in 1984, many students comming from "mass" highschools did not pass the first semester, and the others had to catch up for all the knowledge they did not bring from highschool...

Situation has even worsened in the last decade, unfortunately even so in primary education. The economic emergency of the 90's led to a dramatic shortage of teachers (many left the school to become e.g. self-entepreneurs, or simply left the country). The "solution" by the regime was to train masses of teachers (highschool graduates, bringing already heavy gaps in their knowledge, were "formed" to teachers in crash courses with a duration of less than 1 year). You can imagine the quality of these teachers. Another "solution" has been the use of video teaching. For each topic, e.g. maths, and each grade, e.g. the 4th grade, videos have been produced by the Ministery of Education and distributed among the schools. Children are suposed to learn the stuff at watching the videos. This measure aims at reducing the negative impact of being teached by misserably formed young teachers. But if I remember right, Cuban boys and girls are quite vital. And classes contain normaly more than 30 of those animated children. Can you imagine they learn anything at all? I can't. Even though, Cuban propaganda machinery tells the video approach is the best thing in universe. You are free to believe it or not. For me, I am happy I visited school in a "better era" and had real teachers I still remember today with admiration and love.

A final sad note: the vocational highschool "V. I. Lenin" in which I studied in the early 80's does not exist anymore...

I am happy to inform you that yes it does exist, at this day december 2004, i know this for a fact because i jut graduated in cuba and there are many friends of mine studying in the IPVCE (Instituto Preuniversitario Vocacional de Ciencias Exactas )[Vocational Preuniversitary INstitute in Exact Sciences]. Also classrooms dont have more than 30 students anymore, that applies to Preuniversitary Schools i really cant assure that for "tech schools". I also can assure that right now every primary school in the country have 15 alumns per classroom, pretty impressive number, and also high schools its trying to implement this. I sadly cant say good things about the "video classes" they have great content but in a classroom its difficult to pay real attention to someone who isnt going to call your attention, or its going to tell you to "shut up", so i think that isnt working so well... but i am sure in sometime it will be revised this method. I wanted to put right all those points so the people that read this dont think what its not. --Gotten 03:24, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

execution of "dissidents" vs. "reactionaries" vs. "opponents of the revolution"
These terms are not identical and have slightly different implications. Since it's a very serious allegation, it's important to get the term right. I suggest we look at what kind of people were executed before we make further edits, preferably from sources that are not partisan. pir 12:11, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I have no idea who was executed for what immediately after Castro came to power; I reverted on the assumption that the original author who used "dissidents" had a better idea than either the Old Bolshie who maintained that "dissidence" is by definition impossible (immediately) after a revolution, and that Pir's well-meaning attempt at reconciliation could be (I don't know if is is) technically wrong, as "dissident" does not necessarily equate to "opponent of the revolution". (And shouldn't it be capitalized "Revolution" here, as we're referring to a particular Revolution, in this case Castro's?) Again, my intent was simply to revert to a previous author who presumably had a better idea what he meant to write. I have no dog in this fight, and will accept whatever the consensus opinion agrees on, as I have no inclination to research the matter. -- orthogonal 12:23, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * By the way, what does mean "Old Bolshie"? [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 19:47, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Old Bolshevik -- but I was being funny (or trying to) by using it in that sense as well as in a less precise American way that mostly just means (ideologically) (Soviet) Communist. No offense intended; I try to have a bit of fun, especially on Talk pages. But in seriousness, I think saying dissidence is inherently impossible, and that all opponents of a Revolution are, by definition "reactionaries", has a quaint and doctrine air about it. -- orthogonal 03:55, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Ah! Thanks for the explanation! I agree of course that not all opponents of a revolution are reactionaries. Reactionaries are those who wish/attempt to recover situation that was before the revolution. [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 07:39, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * As far as I understand, dissident is one who opposes to the established regime. In the transitional time there couldn't be dissidence, but only competitive opinions on further development. [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 15:15, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Man, you are a Marxist! Thesis, then antithesis, and only then synthesis. Once Castro came to power, he was the power, and his opponents were dissidents. But in all seriousness, you sound like the very model of the "New Soviet Man", and I think that adds a useful diversity to Wikipedia. Glad to meet ya. -- orthogonal 16:24, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your kind words and brilliant compliments. As for the "dissident" word, read Merriam Webster or dissident. I'm right, you are not, it's that simple :-). [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 19:47, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * It's a bit difficult to find neutral information via a quick google search. This site sells UK Foreign Office microfilms. One description states: "In the six months since the revolution began, the execution of over 500 Batista supporters led the world’s media to describe the state of the country as a ‘bloodbath’ and sparked worldwide concern over the real intentions of Castro’s pro-communist government". This communist pro-Castro website states "In the wake of the revolution, Raœl [Castro] began to punish Batista supporters. After he became head of the Armed Forces he directed the execution of nearly 100 officers and soldiers of the Batista Army and ordered them buried in a mass grave near Santiago de Cuba." A staunchly anti-Castro website reports the execution of 72 prisoners by firing squad but doesn't state why they had been imprisoned . This anti-Castro site might describe the same incident: "Raúl Castro directed a mass execution of over 70 captured soldiers by bulldozing a trench, standing the condemned men in front of it, and mowing them down with machine guns". Right-wing US site interview with apparently anti-Castroist: "...in January 1959, Raúl personally supervised the execution of over one hundred police and military officials and Batistiano soldiers."
 * While there are reports of purges of dissidents including revolutionaries that criticised Castro's regime, I couldn't find reports that these dissidents were executed. This superficial google search suggests that only Batista supports opposing the revolution were executed.pir 13:16, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I still suppose that purges of dissidents started much later than "relations with the US rapidly deteriorated". Therefore I remove mention of dissidents from this sentence at all. I hope, there's no problems with this? [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 15:15, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Look, Castro (according to the facts pir has unearthed (bad pun unintended)) had his own salsa-flavored, Mariachi Band accompanied Katyn Forest, but without any convenient Nazis to blame it on. What do we call this, "removal of the remnants of hostile classes"? If we don't call the victims "dissidents", what do we call them? "Revanchists"? "Chernosotennyj"? "Bonapartists"? "Oboronchestvo"? "Trotsky-fascist hyenas"? Cuba's own "White-Guard"? "Bukharinites?"
 * We should conform the NPOV policy. Disputable allegations and implicating wording violate this policy. So they shouldn't be used, ok? [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 19:47, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Trade with US
"In late 2003, and early 2004, both tourism levels and nickel prices increased, as has the Cuban trade with the USA. One other factor in the "recovery" of the Cuban economy is the remittances of Cuban-Americans (which constitute one-third of the Cuban Economy). Cuba currently trades with almost every nation in the world except the US."

One sentence says Cuba trades with US the next one says it doesnt. Does it?

I would suggest people editting this page read NPOV and in particular "Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete". If people think a certain paragraph is biased it should be corrected by counter arguments, correcting facts etc. Do not delete vast chunks Robneild 11:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Right on!! ;Bear 17:50, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)

Missing history...
1492 Christopher Columbus lands on the island called Juana by the Amerindians, which later became Cuba. 1511 Administrator Diego de Vela´squez arrived in Cuba and established the first settlement in Baracoa, on the easternmost part of the island. The city of San Cristo´bal de la Habana is founded. 1517 The Spanish Crown authorizes the importation of black slaves. 1518 Against Vela´squez’s order, conquistador Herna´n Corte´s departs Havana to conquer Mexico. 1538 La Fuerza, a fortress that stands as the oldest inhabited building in the New World, is built. 1555 The pirate Jacques de Sores burns the city of Havana. 1728 The first university on the island is founded by the religious order of the Dominicans in Havana. 1762 The British land in Cuba and introduce new ideas and trade. 1810 German-born traveler and intellectual Baron Alexander Humboldt arrives in Cuba, and his visit brings to the island European ideas and Frenchmen fleeing the French Revolution.

Luis, William. Culture & Customs of Cuba. Westport, CT, USA: Greenwood Publishing Group, Incorporated, 2000. p xvii. http://site.ebrary.com/lib/gwu/Doc?id=10018030&ppg=17

Copyright © 2000. Greenwood Publishing Group, Incorporated. All rights reserved. 1812 The Aponte conspiracy. The black Aponte was accused of conspiring to create a black republic in Cuba. 1844 The ladder conspiracy, in which blacks were accused of conspiring to overthrow the colonial government. Blacks were tied to a ladder, whipped, and coerced into confessing. 1847 The first ships with Chinese indentured servants arrive in Cuba. 1865 The last slave journey across the Atlantic. 1868 The Ten Years’ War, fought by those seeking independence from the Spanish colonial government, begins. 1878 The island is divided into six provinces. 1879 The Guerra Chiquita (the “little war”), another war between Spain and its colonies, begins and lasts until 1880. 1886 Slaves are emancipated. 1895 The Second War of Independence begins. Jose´ Mart•´, Cuba’s national hero, is killed fighting for his country’s independence from Spain. 1898 The U. S. battleship Maine explodes in Havana harbor, and the United States declares war on Spain. 1901 The Cuban Constitution is completed, and the Platt Amendment is included in it, giving the United States a legal right to intervene in the internal affairs of the newly created republic. 1902 The Republic of Cuba is born. General Toma´s Estrada Palma is Cuba’s first president. 1912 In the race war, La Guerrita del 12, thousands of blacks lose their lives. 1933 The dictatorship of General Gerardo Machado comes to an end. 1934 The Platt Amendment is abrogated from Cuba’s constitution. Women receive the right to vote.

Luis, William. Culture & Customs of Cuba. Westport, CT, USA: Greenwood Publishing Group, Incorporated, 2000. p xviii. http://site.ebrary.com/lib/gwu/Doc?id=10018030&ppg=18

Copyright © 2000. Greenwood Publishing Group, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

Map
A controversy has erupted over the choice of map for this article. The two candidates are shown here, along with any others that other Wikipedians may choose to enter. Feel free to make any comments. The lower map may also appear in the corresponding Geography article for this country. Kelisi 02:52, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I prefer the lower map, --SqueakBox 02:58, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)



Cuban biotech
I heard Cuba has world-leading biotech and microbiology research (vaccination, etc.) They sell anthrax antidote to USA, etc. Why there is no word on education and academic sector in the article?

(Query about U.S. knowledge of Castro)
Does the U.S. know any information about Fidel Castro at the Time Please respond!!!

Bay of Pigs
I added the April 1961, Bay of Pigs Invasion to liberate Cuba; by those Brave Cuban Patriots of the Brigade 2506 to this websites History of Cuba.

How dare us ever forget those men who fought and died to Liberate Cuba, from such a foolish old fossil!

Frank Lopez del Rincon slopes25@hotmail.com