Talk:Cuba/Archive 15

Are U.S trade embargoes still in place on Cuba?
If so, who is part of it and how much is it costing the Cuban economy?

-G

Significant non-event ?
Should we mention Fidel's no-show at today's military parade ? And Raul's avoidance of the topic of big bro ? -- Beardo 18:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, since it seems necessary to polish up his nibs obit. El Jigue 12-02-06
 * If you guys can find verifiable sources, on this subject. Then by all mean, add it to the article. GoodDay 00:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

El Jigue


 * I've heard people joking, that - as the guy whose birthday was celebrated did not appear himself - the 'Great leader and teacher' might have been dead for months already. You never know, consider that my acquaintants had lived in the USSR for decades, so if we remind us of the late comrade Brezhnev's last years...Constanz - Talk 11:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The last video was 28 October - so that's five weeks and no sighting, isn't it. Odd that there wasn't even a video from him on the 2nd. -- Beardo 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately,  "between Raul and Fidel there is not the slightest bit of difference."]Constanz - Talk 11:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * EJ, you've got the varifiable sources. Now add the facts to the article, it will update the article further. GoodDay 17:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But he can't do it, since the article still remains half-protected for some reason. Could someone ask for unprotection?Constanz - Talk 10:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I requested semi-protection again because of the continual mindless vandalism (look at the history - 7 reversion on 30.11 alone). (I mentioned that under the Castro "chemo" comments above. -- Beardo 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

EJ will have to become a registered user. Then (maybe) he can edit the page. GoodDay 19:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, article also protected from 'new' registered users. Will just have to wait until the page is unprotected. GoodDay 19:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

number of political prisoners said decreasing
It appears that the number of recognized political prisoners in Cuba is said to be decreasing. However, limitations on free communication do not allow ready verification, and the actual number of political prisoners is believed to be far larger than the 399 mentioned above. El Jigue 12-10-06


 * Believed by whom ? What do Amnesty International say ? -- Beardo 16:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo What does how much AI dislikes Castro's policies in this regard. Last year they were talking of an absurdly low number of about 70. However, even the low estimate above is five times higher. In Cuba charges often do not reflect reality and repressive forces seem to be showing even greater force than usual ... In addition the Red Cross is not allowed access to prisoners. El Jigue 12-10-06


 * Sadly EJ, those links are not much use to me, as cubanet is one of the few sites blocked from here. -- Beardo 22:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo thank you. I imagine you can get Nuevo Herald material since the editor is "hijo de comandante Castelló." El Jigue 12-10-06


 * I think that I can everything that would fit Wikipedia's definition of "reliable sources" and a lot more besides. But cubanet is blocked. -- Beardo 03:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo can you reach this site   which quotes the State Department Report on Cuban Human Rights Abuses which states (in part): "Human rights monitoring groups inside the country estimate that the number of political prisoners in Havana stands at 350 to 400 persons. The authorities have imprisoned such persons on charges such as disseminating enemy propaganda, illicit association, contempt for the authorities (usually for criticizing Fidel Castro), clandestine printing, or the broad charge of rebellion, often brought against advocates of peaceful democratic change. Other estimates by human rights activists inside and outside the country put the number as high as 1,600 persons." Personally I think that even the largest number is low, but of course I cannot check that without being one myself (:>) El Jigue 12-17-06

The only problem with skip to table of contents.....
is it doesn't work with just two headings. -- Beardo 16:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It needs four. Note to archivist - In future, please leave four items when you archive this page. -- Beardo 22:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Forced "Contents" using " ", should work now with any number of headings. --Qyd 16:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

History of Cuba
Some of the stuff from here really needs to go into the main History of Cuba article, too. -- Beardo 22:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo: Castro is dead according to three reliable sources, apparently already embalmed. Raul is negotiating with the US for survival,,,,El Jigue 12-12-06


 * EJ - which sources are they ? -- Beardo 04:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Beardo, check the 'edit history' of this discussion page. There might be an El Jigue imposter, among us. I've informed 'EJ' himself, of the possible impersonator(s). GoodDay 01:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Suitable responses to this might include *Wasn't El J always an imp poster?; or * Given El J's enthusiasm for downbeat disinformation he's probably impersonating himself; or * I have it from several reliable sources that El J has been dead for several years, the imposter's getting careless; or *It's Fidel channeling from beyond/playing games from his sickbed (depending which rumour (sorry - reliable source) you are open to); or *Might this not be a better tactic than banning him for Wikisins - drown his true voice in impersonations until he registers as the only means of claiming authenticity. MichaelW 08:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Apparently, it is EJ on a new IP address. He's started to blog again as well. Sigh, and I thought he'd mended his ways. GoodDay 21:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

transition
US and Raulist plans for a transition are well underway   Oscar Corral who favors a transition between armed forces of both countries as is already underway is considered by many to be a Castro partisan, and perhaps one of the staff members of the Miami Herald and the Nuevo Herald who inform the Cuban government of pending stories in these papers.

What is more probable is that it will be a rescue operation, not a return of the refugees to the hands of the Raulist refugees because in resistance breaks out on a significant scale these refugees would be executed. Such a plan as described by Corral would almost certainly violate UN refugee resolutions, and far more significantly the US armed forces uniform code of military justice which aside from the major injustice would destroy the career of any officer involved.

In Cuba in such circumstance the low ranking street members of the Comite de defensa de la revolucion who are the eyes and ears of the Cuban government's will be a very likely target of popular rage.... El Jigue 12-14-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.113.199.109 (talk) 15:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC). :EJ, you're blogging again. GoodDay 21:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Coronel Buendia well that was all over both CNN and Fox tonight. New rumors are starting to circulate of massive offers for Milosovich type reward for Raul's capture and delivery to Spain for trial. El Jigue 12-15-06 :Well then 'Little Joe', add it to the article. If it's already there, why blog about it? GoodDay 19:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

"The coast of Cuba was fully mapped by Sebastián de Ocampo in 1511, and in that year Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar founded the first Spanish settlement at Baracoa. Other towns, including Havana (founded in 1515), soon followed. The Spanish, as they did throughout the Americas, oppressed and enslaved the approximately 100,000 indigenous people on the island. Within a century they had all but disappeared as a distinct nation as a result of the combined effects of European introduced disease, forced labor and genocide."

POV???? Can we remove this statement, it seems like blogging to me.Taz75

External links creep
The "External links" section has grown again to inacceptable proportions. Many links are commercial, some are suitable for sub-articles (or can be found there). Many links have no usefull content, or content only marginally related to Cuba. Remember, this is an overview article, it shouldn't cover all details, and nor should the external links provided. I propose a thorough cleanup of that section. --Qyd 16:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, Qyd.--Zleitzen 17:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * My mistake, however I thought and still think anybody looking up Cuba on Wikipedia would like to see more recent photos from the country so I didn't see any issue with linking to my photo gallery. Not everyone that is reading the Cuba Wiki page is looking for textbook information, I would guess most people may be researching for travel purposes or just out of curiosity since the country is such an enigma, hence the value of photo links. Just my opinion.TommyImages 09:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment removed
Earlier today, an anon wrote:

"  ==Cuber?==   Could someone PLEASE change Cuber into Cuba!!! "

This was to alert registered users of vandalism on the main page. However, that comment got immediately reverted (why ?) - and the vandalism remained on the main page for over 23 hours ! -- Beardo 16:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * We/I missed it for 23 hrs. BruceHallman 19:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Dates in infobox
Indeed, Z - the socialist nature was declared at the time of the Bay of Pigs in 1961. But Castro only entered Havana on 6 January (Che and Camillo were here first). I have put "triumph of the Cuban revolution" as the term that the Castro regime use. -- Beardo 02:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo You might check the exact date when Castro entered Havana,my recall is that it was eighth of January. At that time, if memory serves, the Directorio, the Autenticos and to some extent the 26th of July militia were in control of Havana,....El Jigue 12-16-06


 * I thought 8th, too but read 6th on the Cuban revolution page. Good point. (Maybe he entered on 6th AND 8th ?) -- Beardo 15:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Must have been an error on the revolution page, EJ's memory serves him well, it was the 8th.--Zleitzen 16:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Unless the photographers weren't arounnd on the 6th so he did it again when they were. -- Beardo 17:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Z and Beardo, thanks there is nothing like being there to remember ) El Jigue 12-16-06


 * You don't look that old, EJ ! -- Beardo 22:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo thanks but the long "column" came in with much noise. However, anti-Batista groups were probably in control of Havana by the end of the first day of the year. Castro's problem was that his people were not those in control then (see his "armas para que speech" a little later). El JIgue 12-17-06
 * So, what date are you guys decided on (to put in the article)? GoodDay 19:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

'Twas January 8th indeed. Goatboy95 17:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Limiting Links
Zleitzen: I can see the point of transferring links (not just erasing them) to the relevant subpage, but why remove the UK solidarity group link and not all political links? I've replaced that one. A better link would be a collective solidarity links of the world but the existing ones are years out of date.MichaelW 12:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Michael. I wasn't aware that I was removing certain political links and it seems to be an oversight. --Zleitzen 12:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed those links some time ago, and stand by that edit; only general links closely related to the article should be placed there as 1)wikipedia is not a link repository, and 2), as I said in the previous discussion, this is an overview article, it shouldn't cover all details, and nor should the external links provided. A UK group supporting some ideea on a general country page? No-no. You are right, ALL political links should go, unless they provide content related to the article text, and then they would show up at references as sources, not dumped in the external links section. --Qyd 16:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Can't see this working for a polarised subject like Cuba. As long as Cuba remains such a strongly politicised subject political links are IMO a necessary extension of the article, they are a way of fleshing out the bones of contention. They may help move the battleground from the wording of the article to an easier arena: what are valid links? MichaelW 20:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * My point is that political links should go to Politics of Cuba or Human rights in Cuba, links about economy in Economy of Cuba or Tourism in Cuba and so on, in specific articles listed at Topics related to Cuba. Cuba itself sould be kept as un-controversial as posible (by showcasing only well known and well referenced facts), it should just be an overview article. Having one too many external links is an invitation to spamlink and/or only loosely related links, that only dilute the quality of information. --Qyd 22:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Z's and Michael's approach (e.g. leaving these links) seems more logical under the present conditions vs the Island to remove these links to remote less commonly accessed sites seems equivalent to consigning them to "Gehenna" (spelling) El Jigue 12-27-06

Castro dying after a series of failed operations
It seems clear that Fidel Castro is dying after a series of failed gastro-intestinal operations .El Jigue 1-16-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 14:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
 * So much for the Communist prediction of Castro living 150 years. Perhaps that could be added to the article. GoodDay 20:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If you can provide a citable source, we'll consider it. -- Beardo 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Guantánamo Bay Human Rights Violations
I think this article should cite the human rights violations by the U.S in Cuban territory. Guantanamo Bay should be cited. Chico 01:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The special situation of Guantanamo Bay is mentioned in this article. The human rights violations are discussed in the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp articles, let's leave it to that. This article is an overview, it should not cover every single detail.--Qyd 03:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying go into details about the accusation, just leave the sentece I added: "The United States is also accused of human rights violations in Cuban territory, in Guantánamo Bay." Chico 17:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is a page for Guantanamo Bay already and i would think that would be more of an appropriate place for what your looking to add. Gums101 4 March 2007

Use of the Miami Herald as a source
Recognizing that the Miami Herald has been paid to create anti-Cuba propaganda, Miami Herald, I believe it falls under WP:V's definition of a source of dubious reliability, at least as far as reporting on Cuba goes. I'm going to remove citations of the Miami Herald, and replace anything they were being used to cite with citation needed. I'll see what I can do about finding alternative sources that support the same information, and I could use some help on that step. What's left will be information that comes only from the Miami Herald, so it will need to be checked on a case-by-case basis for its own verifiability before citing it. To ensure that information that came only from the Miami Herald can be found later, I'm going to leave a link to the current revision: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cuba&oldid=101467795 -NorsemanII 08:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Note: When visiting the Miami Herald website for those references before I deleted them, it said the requested document was not found for all of them. You can confirm this in the history. These links were bad anyway, even if they had been from a reliable source. -NorsemanII 08:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Norseman. There are several urgent reasons for you to revert those deletions immediately, since you are acting on partial information. Several points need to taken into account: (1) The Miami Herald was never paid to "create anti-Cuban propaganda." Instead a number of Miami Herald reporters and columnists gave presentations on Radio and TV Marti. These reporters were first fired and then reinstated since what they did was not a crime. (2) The Miami Herald staff includes a number of reporters who alliances are to the Castro government, including one senior editor who is the son of a comandante who died in the good graces of that goverment. (3) By the same reasoning one would have to delete all citations to present Cuban government publications since these are paid for by the Cuban government. However, above all you removed information in unlateral fashion without consultation with others and clearly without having made any contributions yourself. As to those links you say do not function, the Miami Herald archives will contain those citations and they can be recovered for a very modest fee. El Jigue 1-18-06
 * I tend to agree with EJ. Whatsmore, the Herald is too large a source and has too much information to be removed as a blanket measure. We simply have to use it for some information, as we also need Cuban government sources for occasional detail. Otherwise we'd be really struggling. The Herald can indeed carry anti-Cuban propaganda, but as EJ points out, it does carry a range of views from different staff. As for Cuban government sources, well they are a study in propaganda. We have to take the rough with the smooth and do our best on a case to case basis.--Zleitzen 00:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing citations of the Miami Herald shouldn't be a problem for two reasons. Firstly, if the information is not original research by the Miami Herald, then there should be alternative sources of the same information, including whatever source the Miami Herald got their information from. Second, if the information is original research, it shouldn't be in the article in the first place. Just to be clear on what the Miami Herald was being used to cite:


 * U.S. law allows the Attorney General to, at his discretion, grant permanent residence to Cuban natives or citizens seeking adjustment of status if they have been present in the United States for at least 1 year after admission or parole and are admissible as immigrants.
 * This should be very easy to confirm or deny. I believe there's a citation two words into this statement that supports this.


 * The escapes from Cuba are often daring and most ingenious.
 * Factual examples are preferable to statements like this.


 * In 2005 an additional 7,610 Cuban emigrants from Cuba entered the United States by September 30th.
 * This should also be very easy to confirm or deny, or to reword into something that can be confirmed or denied.


 * Citzens of Cuba must obtain an exit permit before they may leave the country.
 * Human Rights Watch or Amnesty international probably has information on this. It should be pretty easy to get a citation for it.

Regarding publications by the Cuban government, it's probably best to preface any information from such publications to acknowledge where the information is coming from, although I'll note that I didn't see anything from Cuban publications in the list of references. -NorsemanII 18:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

"Second, if the information is original research, it shouldn't be in the article in the first place."

This rule of thumb is used to prevent research from any old shlub calling himself a journalist from entering        the pool of information on wikipedia. All information about anything you can imagine is based on original research. Shall we "86" all research conducted by New York Times journalists as well? I don't understand this suggestion at all.

Best,

Goatboy95 21:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly, original research means research by the editor to Wikipedia, not research by the referenced source. OR is when I say "Cubans must obtain an exit permit because every Cuban that I have spoken to says so.", not when we refer to a cited source. -- Beardo 03:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The trouble with the Norseman approach is that valid information was deleted, instead of replacing the citation with a reference to Miami Herald archives. If Norseman wishes only to censor then, that is his problem not Wikipedia's. "From the fury of the Norseman, free us Our Lord" (old dark age prayer). El Jigue 1-24-07

Recent minor rebellion
Illustrating the point of the difficulty of obtaining information from Cuba is the following matter I recieved by e-mail today:

"It is common to read that nothing is happening in Cuba, as Fidel Castro, seems to be dying. However, this is not exactly true, what is more appropriate is to say no news of rebellion reaches the outside world.  For instance here is a description (footnote 1) of a minor rebellion among army recruits, which involved an escape and a relatively large military operation to capture them.  The rebels are expected to be shot......."  El Jigue 1-24-07

GA on hold
Reference 6 comes after the full-stop
 * Needs lots more references especially history, which only has about 6
 * Remove the external links from the infobox
 * Demographics is terrible formatted
 * cn tags
 * In addition, a lack of investment in infrastructure has forced the closing of many mills.[1], convert external link to reference
 * Some references are just URL's and are missing details such as publisher, last access date, check for more info
 * cut down on the external links


 * format refs with cite web, converted inline external links to refs (including the ones in the infobox). --Qyd 20:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Automated Review The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Economy is well referenced, do the same for other sections. M3tal H3ad 03:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
 * See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -  between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 005 metres, use 005 metres, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 005&amp;nbsp;metres.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.[?]
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 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
 * Please provide citations for all of the s.[?]
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Problems with the above
Despite major efforts of well intentioned editors, it is difficult to maintain the content of this page due to politlcal pressures and the difficulties with scholarly access to the Island. Scholars who visit Cuba are subject to prior screening to assure their intellectual product supports the present government, access to archives is selectively limited. "Data" produced by the Cuban government is incorporated without change or obvious citation into data provided by international agencies (e.g. WH0) then cited as "fact." This article is subject to constant "purging" most commonly by partisans of the present Cuban government. With some frequency citations to material that the Cuban government disapproves of are removed (for various odd reasons), and then claiming that the matter is not supported by references the "offensive" material is removed. Even material in discussion section is removed. El Jigüe 1-26-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 14:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC).


 * GA fail, needs more referencesM3tal H3ad 01:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC), still Fact tags.

Religion in Cuba
The present article is so bland and kind to the past and present circumstance of religion in Cuba, that it bears revision. A good starting point might well be: Super, John C., 2003 Interpretations of church and state in cuba, 1959-1961. Catholic Historical Review, 00088080, Jul 003, 89 (3)511-529.

A friend of mine excerpted the following from this article: “ Then in the fall of 1959 Raúl Castro disbanded the Comandos Rurales (Rural Comandos), a group formed in February, 1959, to promote community development in the Sierra Maestra.( n26) By the end of the year, the regime also made efforts to control the Central de Trabajadores de Cuba (Cuban Labor Confederation), purging from its ranks members of Acción Católica.( n27)” “The Church took the offensive when it organized the Primer Congreso Católico Nacional (First National Catholic Congress) in Havana on November 29, 1959. Some one million Cubans crowded the Plaza of the Revolution to attend Mass and to hear denunciations of communism.” “As resistance to the revolution became more difficult within Cuba, forces organized outside of it, culminating in the Bay of Pigs invasion of April 17, 1961. Much attention has been given to the three Catholic chaplains who accompanied the expeditionary force, which lent it the air of a crusade. Castro's reaction could be interpreted as a counter crusade. Widespread arrests, imprisonments, and expulsions followed on the heels of the invasion. The government arrested bishops, shut down La Quincena, the last Catholic publication, closed the offices of Acción Católica, and created a general climate of intolerance. More Catholics now believed that the struggle went beyond politics and involved the very survival of their faith.( n49)” Increasing confrontations hardened the relationship between the church and state, and contributed to discrimination, intimidation, insuits, sabotage, and much more.( n50) Even Cubans returning to Cuba from the United States in 1961 were filled with propaganda against the Church. In the summer of 1961, the widely read Spanish author José Maria Gironella sat on the deck of the Guadalupe as it steamed toward Havana and watched Cubans reading in Cuba Nueva stories about "nuns who killed children, about cardinals given over to orgies, and every time it referred to Spanish priests in Cuba, it called them 'Falangist clergy.'"( n51) Stories such as these fit very well with the government's emphasis on popular education to mold attitudes and beliefs. This was the education of home and office, of ballfield and beach, and it was an education that criticized religion and the Church.” “) The final blow came in May, 1961, when the government took over all remaining private schools, both parochial and non-parochial, and then closed them, displacing some 100,000 students.( n54)” ’ Events surrounding the feast day of the Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre in 1961 also help to explain the historiography of the revolution. The Virgin of Charity of Copper, a figure as celebrated in Cuban history as the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexican history, continues to influence Cuban identity, despite the efforts of the revolution to minimize her importance. Castro refused to allow the Church to celebrate the feast day on September 8, but did grant permission for September 10. When the procession left the church, the police and their supporters attacked it, wounding ten and killing Arnaldo Socorro, a young student. The following day the government claimed that Socorro had been killed by "falangist priests" bent on destroying the revolution. The government buried him as a hero, claiming that "reactionary priests" continued to serve the interests of "Yankee imperialists."( n57) The war of violence and propaganda would continue.” El Jigue 1-26-06

Cuban independence?
Currently the infobox has: which most anyone should agree is not correct. Both independence and a republic were declared on October 10, 1868 (although the movement was retrospectively called "the Republic of Cuba in arms"). Cuba gained independence from US administration on May 20, 1902. The 1959 date may be the date of the revolution, but it did not change Cuba's status. Even if Cuba under Batista was a US protectorate, it was still independent from 1902 (or 1898 depending on the point of view of some). As the page is currently semi-protected (most likely due to fanatics, trolls, trouble-makers or the generally misinformed attempting to change the info regarding Castro) perhaps a frequent user/watcher of this page should change the "Independence" info in the infobox.72.27.87.141 21:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Independence from Spain
 * - Declared October 10, 1868
 * - Republic declared May 20, 1902
 * - From the U.S. Administration January 1, 1959"


 * Correct of course, it seems that it was a piece of vandalism that nobody spotted.--Zleitzen 23:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thanks remember I do not have access. One could most logically argue that the concept of Cuba as a protectorate ended in 1933 with the removal of the Platt Amendment...  For instance were Cuba a protectorate in 1958 there would have no need for the US to embargo weapons imported by Batista. BTW "d From 1993 to 2004, the U.S. dollar was used in addition to the peso until the dollar was replaced by the convertible peso." would be far more complete as "d From 1898 to (circa) 1962 and 1993 to 2004, the U.S. dollar was used in addition to the peso until the dollar was replaced by the convertible peso." El Jigue 1-27-07

Some opinions . ..
How shall we proceed?

Yesterday I expanded the section regarding Cuba immediately after the revolution, speaking of the new fears sparked in the population as a result of the summary executions of civilians and "otherwise." someone expanded a bit to say batista collaborators, which is certainly true of course but took out the reference to civilians. Seems this is a rather dangerous edit, in that it would lead one to believe that civilians who opposed the new order were not targeted. Anyone care to remedy this? I don't want to do a simple revert but, this is rather worrisome as it disregards civilian executions, etc. This is the new edit performed after my expansion:

"As the months following the revolutionary army’s January victory went on however, the summary executions of suspected Batista collaborators – coupled with the seizure of Cuban-owned businesses and the rapid demise of the independent press, due to the powerful pro-revolution printing unions,[7] sparked new fears in certain sectors of the population."

Since it is a well-known fact that not only Batista sympathizers were targeted, shouldn't there be a cursory mention? Or are those lives less valuable than the Batistianos?

Goatboy95 15:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Since you believe these details to be well known, then perhaps it would have been wise to add sources for your claims. I changed it to "executions of suspected Batista collaborators", because - quite frankly, that is what all mainstream or serious sources say when discussing that early period. Your edit implies that there was some kind of Khmer Rouge cull of civilians - which is misleading/false, Goatboy.--Zleitzen 16:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Good lord, there certainly was no Khmer Rouge style cull. That's a bit silly. However, to say that non-batista-aligned civilians weren't targeted is more than a bit misleading. One reliable source I'd point you to would be the Cuba Archive, a collection of names, dates, etc of hundreds of executions at the hands of the regime. The archive, run by Maria Werlau and another gentleman, can't recall his name documents the execution minors, among others;

"Cuba Archive finds that some 5,600 Cubans have died in front of firing squads and another 1,200 in "extrajudicial assassinations." Che Guevara was a gleeful executioner at the infamous La Cabaña Fortress in 1959 where, under his orders, at least 151 Cubans were lined up and shot. Children have not been spared. Of the 94 minors whose deaths have been documented by Cuba Archive, 22 died by firing squad and 32 in extrajudicial assassinations."

I must say I'm a bit shocked by your response. The lives of non-Batistaianos are just as important and should me mentioned.

Going further, I no longer have a cousin to chat with as a result of his extrajudicial exectuion in 1960 however, since I'm Cuban, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry Zleitzen, usually, your comments and information are quite informative and useful however. That was just offensive.

Goatboy95 16:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry if my comments seemed offensive. The era we are referring to is the immediate-post revolutionary period and (as usual) I am re-hashing the details same 500-550 people executed in the first 6-12 months or so. Of which all mainstream sources refer to in detail as the "to-the-wall" judicial executions of Batista secret police figures and other collaborators. The 5,000 figures, which seem fairly accurate, span a decade that includes several wars (War of the Bandits/Bay of Pigs) and campaigns against continued armed "counter revolutionary" resistance groups. Incidently, Guevara's spell as prosecutor in La Cabaña lasted only 6 months in early 1959.


 * The Cuba archive is just one source and I have read it extensively. Maria Werlau, whose father was killed fighting for exile groups in the Bay of Pigs invasion, is not providing a rounded view of the situation. For one, she omits the charges against those who were "gleefully executioned" as she describes. It should be noted, of course, that Werlau is responsible for various essays such as "Does Cuba Have Biochemical Weapons?" and other such pearls.


 * An interesting story that might illuminate the issue is that of the trial of 44 Batista airmen in 1959, accused of war-crimes in Santiago. When these men were found innocent, rioting and deep unrest in Santiago against the descision forced a retrial and the judgment was overturned by Castro claiming "revolutionary justice is based not on legal precepts but moral conviction". The men were therefore sentenced to 20-30 years imprisonment. That provides a picture not only of the legal chaos of the era, but of the typical accusations, charges and punishments that were being banded about at the time. The heated atmosphere was compared to France in 1945 by various international observers, where there were also tragic cases of gross miscarriages of justice. However, it would be wrong to depict that era without any mention of context of those executions.--Zleitzen 18:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think about it. I believe it’s time to hang my hat and retire from any association with Wikipedia. Over the course of my time here, I’ve been able to interact with a great number of individuals with interesting points of view and excellent information to share. The subject in the above thread however really got me thinking.

Too often I’ve seen editors revert factual information in order to prevent any information deemed detrimental to the Cuban Revolution from entering related articles. These individuals, it would seem, believe that the accounts of mass executions and suppression of basic freedoms on the island are fictitious stories. As if those who actually experienced the island’s purges were suffering from some sort of delusion. To put it quite bluntly, it is offensive, turns a blind eye to history and quite frankly racist.

Apparently, those little brown folks down in Cuba cannot be trusted to elect their own leaders, or run their own government. So inept at self-governance are they that they require a military strongman to keep them in line via Stalinist measures.

Many just don’t seem to care about the executions of apolitical types, the lack of press freedoms, the inability for citizens to depart Cuban territory to travel the world without nearly impossible-to-obtain government permissions. All too often, those who deem themselves “Cuba experts” forget about the children aboard the 13 de Marzo tugboat, or the way in which family members departing La Cabana after visiting with condemned relatives were treated to the sounds of the actual shots that took their loved one’s lives.

Perhaps what is necessary is for those individuals to experience this sort of terror first-hand. To be honest though, I wouldn’t wish it on my own worst enemy.

Let’s be honest here. It has brought a tear to my own eye, what has transpired here. Truth is everything to me and I simply cannot be associated with a site which turns a blind eye to the brutal persecution of an entire nation’s population.

Many ignored the war in the former Yugoslavia until it was too late. Many chose to turn their eyes away from the plight of Europe’s Jews in the 1940s until millions of them were gone. Some governments openly supported brutal dictators the likes of Augusto Pinochet simply for pragmatic reasons. I will not be a part of that trend.

It is entirely possible that some of those responsible for the sorts of acts on Wikipedia of which I speak are agents of the Cuban regime. Sound crazy? Perhaps if you had grown up with a CDR (Commettee for Defense of the Revolution) on every block, it wouldn’t seem that way. Of course, I grew up in Cuba so, I really don’t know what I’m talking about. Leave the facts to armchair intellectuals living a world away to tell Cuba’s story. The Cubans themselves are apparently too slow-witted to do it themselves.

Please accept my apologies for the rather long-winded, emotional rant. Given the subject matter however, I believe it’s understandable. That’s all from me.

Good luck.

Goatboy95 17:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Giles stick with it at the very least your efforts and those of others are taking time away from Castro's friends and employees. Try not to argue too much with Z as he is trying to do what he can in academia. As to skin (:>) color I am of course pure white wait a minute "Oye manda Abuelita a la cocina que viene visita." As I was saying perhaps the greatest single purge was the elimination of most guajiros connected with rural revolt of War Against the Bandits, perhaps the saddest was the betrayal and discrete killings of former guerrillas who fought Batista or those poor milicianos who were sacrified by as if mere water by the Soviet style tactics of Jesus Enrique Lister during the Bay of Pigs Invasion. El Jigue 1-30-07

Cuba
I think that what i have read makes me want to say that cuba is a country that needs a change it sounds like it had a good run there for a little while but than was overturned and taken over by FIdel Castro. Since then it has been a place that many people are wanting to leave and are in fear of staying. I think that when Fidel Casto is out of office that this country might see a good change and get back to where it was 16:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Jason Febuary 5 2007
 * Well, that's the first prelapsarian criticism of the Cuban Revolution I've heard outside of hardcore Batistoid circles. Jason, I'd read a bit more of the history of Cuba before you attempt a substantial contribution. MichaelW 21:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Michael: That statement is a personal attack on all who criticize Castro, and violates Wikipedia rules. Please remove it. El Jigue 2-6-07208.65.188.149 15:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So all who criticise Castro believe that Cuba was a good place before the Revolution to which state it will return when he dies. Just who do you think you are kidding? A good place for who? Come on El J you've spent more than a few words here mocking the more idealistic supporters of the Revolution - whence the sudden umbrage? It is a common wisdom that a couple of weeks in Cuba will allow anyone to confirm their prejudices, whatever they be, but the longer you spend there the more complex the situation appears. On the evidence of Jason's statement I'd say the same was true of a limited reading. A personal attack on all... what splendid hyperbole - wasn't even a personal attack on Jason MichaelW 22:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Michael: That is another personal attack one is supposed to use cited sources. As to my credentials that you challenged ignoring my careful citations, you forget as pointed out previously in this forum I was a rebel in the Sierra Maestra mountains and fought in a number of actions especially on the Cauto Plains. Yes there were idealistic if not too practical supporters of Castro in Cuba, I was one of them, and watched how they were purged in one way or another. As to the conditions in Cuba one has only to point out that the MINIMUM wage in Cuba before Castro was low only about $60 US/month,(equivalent to about $300 today), however, at present the AVERAGE wage in Cuba is equivalent to $20 US and despite Castro Government claims heath and housing support is terrible. One notes with some humor that Castro was forced to bring in a Spanish surgeon to repair three botched operations by his "own" surgeons. It is irrational to blame the US embargo on Cuba, since the Cuban government now can trade with all countries in the world even the US. El Jigue 2-11-07 208.65.188.149 16:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm a trifle bemused. Are you having two conversations El J? mixing them around a little, confusion to thine enemies and all that. Whoever it was challenging your creds it wasn't me, I didn't mention conditions in Cuba either. I did say "the situation" there, not the same thing. Didn't even think about the embargo, let alone blame it for anything. I referred to idealists here at WikiCuba, not back then.
 * Meanwhile in Hiltons the world over the remote control of imperial influence has been found and put to good use keeping out those pesky commies. MichaelW 17:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Michael my apologies to you and your friend Jason. In my confused mind, situation and conditions mean similar things, while in reality you were clearly talking about the weather in Cuba, not the circumstances of most Cubans on the Island.

My only weak excuse is that Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus [] for under conditions one also finds 5 results for: conditions

Apparently conditions as most English words has a number of meanings: climate, context, environment, medium, and theory

e.g. Item 3 Main Entry: 	environment Part of Speech: 	noun Definition: 	surroundings Synonyms: 	ambiance, atmosphere, aura, backdrop, background, circumstances, climate, conditions, context, domain, element, encompassment, entourage, habitat, hood*, jungle*, locale, medium, milieu, neighborhood, purlieus, scene, scenery, setting, situation, status, stomping ground*, surroundings, terrain, territory, turf, zoo*

Again please accept my deepest regrets, and yes I do agree that the weather in Cuba is magnificent, most of the time. El Jigue 2-11-07 208.65.188.149 20:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Batista and the left
It is commonly known that Batista was friendly to and often protected the left. For instance, Koch, Stephen. 1994 (2004 edition) Double Lives,Enigma Press, New York ISBN 1929631200 on page 103 states: " He (Otto Katz) is known to have worked closely there (Mexico City) with the long time NKVD chieftain Umansky, spending the war (WW II) much involved in Soviet operations within the United States and the Caribbean, working among other things with Fidel Castro's predecessor, Fulgencio Batista. Batista was at this time much admired and promoted by the left, and Katz was empoweredto make Batista grand offers on behalf of the Soviet Union if Batista would enter Stalin's sphere of influence. (footnoted to Otto Katz, FOIA dossier #65-9266)

El Jigue 2-6-07208.65.188.149 18:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

yes it did.

Article split?
Does it make sense to have two separate articles, one about the island of Cuba and the other about the Republic of Cuba, which consists of the island of Cuba plus many smaller islands? As an example of the potential confusion, this appears in the "Geography" section of the current version of the article: "Cuba is an archipelago of islands located in the Caribbean Sea, with the geographic coordinates 21°3N, 80°00W. Cuba is the principal island, which is surrounded by four main groups of islands." "Cuba" is the subject of consecutive sentences, but with different meanings in the two. I don't want to try to create distinctions where none exist, but I think in this case it might help clarify things.--Rkstafford 18:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Comandos F-4 group active again?
There is a report that "Comandos F-4" group is actively raiding into Cuba and has penetrated into a Cuban military unit and removed large amounts of weapons. No confirmation as of yet. Meanwhile in case of widespread exodus from Cuba the US is preparing a refugee camp in Guantanamo  El Jigue 2-16-06 208.65.188.149 15:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Meat for thought
Pointing out the lack of beef in the common Cuban diet[ is apparently objectionable to some. El Jigue 2-21-07[[User:208.65.188.149|208.65.188.149]] 16:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * EJ, what is that source? It appears to be a letter from someone called Carlos to a friend on an unnamed website. -- Z leitzen (talk)  16:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: that source is more than that, the "libreta" the ration book only allows beef twice a year (if a person can find it) in Cuba almost all cattle are property of government and slaughtering cattle is forbidden even if a guajiro is lucky enough to own one. This leads to ludicrous and cruel matters such as pushing a cow over a cliff, followed by an official investigation, and confiscation of the meat by local authorities. The problem is such, although "common knowledge" on the Island it is difficult to get data in a closed society. Let me see if I can find a reference more to your taste. El Jigue 2-22-07


 * Another useful thing would be to try to find how many Cubans rely only on the libreta for their food. Or related to that. how many Cubans have a source of convertible currency. -- Beardo 13:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

More Foreign press evicted
In a move that suggests a wave of increased repression is imminent more interanational reporters have been ordered to leave. El Jigue 2-23-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 16:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Moncada, Granma survivor and political prisoner dies
Thirty years to the date of his imprisonment, he was released and reunited with his four sisters in Miami.Bustos, Sergio 2007 (accesse 2-25-07) Cuban political prisoner dies (Mario Chanes de Armas) Miami Herald, Sun, Feb. 25, 2007 “Considered one of the founders of the Revolution, Chanes de Armas survived the Moncada attack, trained in Mexico, came over on the yacht Gramma and lived to greet Castro in Havana on Jan. 9, 1959, when the conquering heroes arrived on top of a U.S. Sherman tank. … Thirty years to the date of his imprisonment, he was released and reunited with his four sisters in Miami.” El Jigue 2-25-07208.65.188.149 00:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

New Location Map
The new location map is wrong, it did not high lighted Isle of Youth which is also part of Cuba. Petrovsky18 02:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed.-- Z leitzen (talk)  19:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Procastro editing underguise of removing vandalism
Under cover of vandalism, procastro editing continues deletions include: Education section "However, access to higher education apparently requires party membership since such is "a de facto prerequisite for high-level official positions and professional advancement in most areas.""

Requested references in History section were also deleted:

However, it is thought that, as in much of Latin America, the country's aboriginal heritage survives in part via the rise of a significant Mestizo population - El Jigue 2-28-07208.65.188.149 19:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding the removal of the survival of aboriginal heritage, unless I'm mistaken, the issue is done and dusted. There is clear evidence of the survival of Taino DNA throughout the Antilles. But could you format your refs before put them back in, EJ? At the moment your cascading ref list is hard to follow. Could you clarify which author wrote compiled which study?

Here are your references:"Lalueza-Fox, C. ; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Martinez-Fuentes, A. J,; Calafell, F. [Author]; Bertranpetit, J., Mitochondrial DNA from pre-Columbian Ciboneys from Cuba and the prehistoric colonization of the Caribbean. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 121(2). June 2003. 97-108." -- Z leitzen (talk)  19:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: The first reference the one you cite above, shows that the haplogroup sequences of mitochondrial DNA of pre-European Cuba (A, B and C) are the same as those found in present day studies of the Americas. Thus other reference which is from Puerto Rico, given that island's parallels in population origens, almost certainly reflects the Cuban circumstance:

The reason I can say this with confidence, although as yet it cannot be cited here, is that I am aware of data from participants in the National Geographic genome project who have Cuban roots. What puzzles me is why the subject of haplogroups of present day Cuba receives so little attention. It could be that the determination is relatively expensive perhaps $200 US/sample. El Jigue 3-1-06208.65.188.149 01:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Given that a few other people have contested this in the past it may be worth getting together a good content note or source note. Here's what Gott (p.7) has to say :
 * A third element in Cuba's ethnic mix, the trace of indigenous blood that runs through most of its people except for the most recent immigrants, has usually been ignored or denied. It is vigorously downplayed by most historians in Havana today, although those in Santiago are more freethinking. The official line, doggedly maintained over the years, in spite of increasing evidence to the contrary, is that the Tainos were destroyed during the early years of conquest. This is clearly not so.
 * If we cite Gott alongside the regional studies, then there should be little cause to contest this again.-- Z leitzen (talk)  01:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Z: thankyou sounds good...even if I find it odd that Gott would go against official Cuban government line. Two items struck me (1), the end of the last sentence of the second lead paragraph "and its location between water bodies also make Cuba prone to frequent hurricanes." seems to be taken from an extremely bad translation of a Cuban geography text (see modified text in article now removed "The island has a tropical climate that is moderated by the surrounding waters; however, the warm temperatures of the Caribbean Sea and its location which almost completely blocks access to the Gulf of Mexico make Cuba prone to frequent (passage of) hurricanes.")  (2) Moderated the pro-Cuban government claims of free access to education with the following (However, access to higher education apparently requires party membership since such is "a de facto prerequisite for high-level official positions and professional advancement in most areas.". In addition requirements for part time child labor  weaken  the Cuban Government's claim of free education for all). . El Jigue 3-6-07208.65.188.149 15:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've restored the Taino references, and added Gott to your sources. More importantly, I notice that we're still expanding the history section, which will eventually have to be cut down considerably and moved to the main History page. However, I imagine that delicate operation will not be without its traumas! I imagine everyone will have a version of events they would prefer highlighted or omitted.-- Z leitzen (talk)  22:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thank you Perhaps it could merely refer to a specific page perhaps DNA and Human Origins. El Jigue 3-6-07 208.65.188.149 23:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

One party Socialist state?
Although we all know that Cuba is considered "communist" by most westerners, the Cuban government following marxist dogma claims that a communist society has not been achieved. This is a religious concept in other context it could be called heaven on earth. Of course this is nonsense, however it seems insulting to multiparty democratic socialist countries to call Cuba a socialist state. Arguments on this matter are equivalent to calculating the number of angels who can dance on the head of pin (by my calculations infinity since angels occupy no space, and I am not a Baptists so I believe angeles if they exist can dance). Thus I modified socialist to one party socialist state. What modifier do you prefer. Authoritarian, rigid, controlled, while far more fitting are only going to cause trouble. My preference would be socialist absolute monarchy (>). El Jigue 3-6-07 208.65.188.149 23:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * EJ, I don't know why you've added info about China, Vietnam and so on to the page. Could you explain?-- Z leitzen (talk)  18:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Z: If the word socialist, a word with many meanings, is deemed the appropriate word to describe the government of Cuba then there is need to alert the naive reader by some means or other that Cuba is a one party totalitarian system. El Jigue 3-7-07208.65.188.149 18:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello EJ, Britain is defined as a constitutional monarchy - whatever that means - by almost all encyclopedias, but there is no need to list the other constitutional monarchies on that page to clarify is there? Likewise Cuba with Socialist republic, an equally uniform and established title across the board. I understand the reasoning for your addition of China and so on and don't see it as a big issue, but I hoped that the government section would attempt to convey the actual nuts and bolts (how many seats are on the assembly / what is the official title of Castro / How many municipal assemblies are there etc) rather than impressions (Cuba is a bit like China / is a controlled totalitarian state / is a workers paradise etc) which I fear leads only to edit wars, conflict and a poorer page. That said, China, Vietnam and so on are also termed Socialist republics so there can be no dispute about your accuracy. -- Z leitzen (talk)  19:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)