Talk:Cue sports/Archive 1

General comments
I'm confused... is it fair to say that "pool" or "eight-ball" is a type of Billards? (ie: Billards isn't so much a game as group of different games played on a table with balls and a stick?) A Genus, rather than a Species as it were. Tenbaset 22:30 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)


 * If "golf is a pool game", is it not played on a pool table rather than an (English) billiards table? -- Picapica 20:41, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The links to online pool look like total spam. Also, online pool has very little resemblance to the real game so I think for these reasons they should be removed. [-- anonymous]


 * Billiards is generally agreed on to indicate either a) Games played on a table using balls and a cue to strike them, or b) Carom billiards.
 * Golf can be played on any table with six pockets. I have read that the traditionally its player on a 12 ft snooker table which of course makes it a very difficult game.  11/04/2004 [--anon]


 * I did a complete rewrite on the page. I believe I incorporated the salient points of the existing page.
 * I moved some stuff on Russian Billiards to a separate page.
 * I tried to clean up the game list so it was less confusing.
 * My knowledge of regional game play is US based. I would like to see more details on billiards play around the world.
 * MJB - 11/04/2004


 * Please don't do things like that! This is not your personal blog.  If you're going to change something significant, then it (as in that specific point you want to change) should be discussed here first, especially on an article topic of such broad interest as this!  --Smccandlish 06:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This article needs more links. (BTW, what date format is 11/04/2004 ?) 213.51.209.230 15:53, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I do not know what tags to use to grab the date? Or is it purely manual?
 * By links, do you mean hyperlinks in the article, or links in the reference section? [--anon]


 * I like the changes made to the cue and billiard ball section. I am not sure I agree about the comment of two piece cue being used by more experienced players.  Its not a matter of how good the player is, its simply a matter of whether a player needs a transportable cue or not.  Its common for league players to have two piece cues regardless of their skill level.  68.115.54.113 23:46, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)MichaelJHuman


 * This article needs more information on the history of the game. It is not mentioned specifically when or where billiards came into existence. Rvinall 01:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * In fact, the history of billiards is given a sentence on snooker but not here. I added some history links. Jake 21:08, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Made some changes
Changed some of the major references to cue sticks to "pool cues" because pool cues is a more popular term (per a google search on "cue sticks" and "pool cues" and "pool cues" getting more responses). Remade the external links section... Added a few, gave 'em descriptions. Changed a few small grammar inconsistencies.

Link of 8-ball went to the grand theft auto game. Changed the link to the game (Eight-ball).

&#91;--anon.&#93;

"Billiard" or "billard"?
Is it plural or singular? In German, it's called de:Billard.

Did you ever hear "playing the diamonds"? this term was used in the disney cartoon "Donald in Mathmagic land"... it says, you can easily calculate how to play a ball by counting and dividing diamonds on the table... i actually never understood how they meant to do it ("Disney nonesense"), maybe someone knows more about it.

thanks, --Abdull 12:12, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * That advice was for French (pocketless) billiards. Billiards (sic) is singular.
 * Google 'diamond system billiards' --&#91;anon&#93;


 * Yes, it's "billiard&#91;s&#93;" in English, with two i's. "Billiards" is a singular noun meaning the game (or class of games), and it is also an adjective referring to the game (e.g. "billiards player").  "Billiard" is a noun referring to the action of succesfully scoring a point in a carom game ("Wow, nice three-cusion billiard!").  "Billiards" is also the plural of this noun ("He made 7 billiards in a row.")  Even more confusing, "billiard" is also an adjective referring to the game ("billiard cue", "billiard balls", etc.), and is more commonly used as such an adjective than "billiards" - "billiard player" is just as valid as "billiards player", while "billiards cue" and "billiards balls" are rather rare usages.)  The game itself is never called "billiard" (in English).  Hope that helps!  &mdash;  SMcCandlish &#91;talk&#93; &#91;contrib&#93; ツ 03:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Commercial Links
The external links section is a constant annoyance to me. I remove what I consider to be blatently commercial links, and they get remade. Its sad. As to history, I recall sketching out a history section. Not sure what happened to it. I thought it was a separate link. [-- anon]


 * Yeah, there are still a lot of spammy links in many of the articles in this topic's diaspora. They're on the radar... &mdash;  SMcCandlish &#91;talk&#93; &#91;contrib&#93; ツ 13:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe I have nuked all of the spam links at this point. There remain some directly pertinent links to some sites, of course, but the random, irrelevant, spammy, and nonauthoritative (when that's an issue) ones have been deleted.  If more are found feel free to remove them yourself of course, or report the issue here and remove the "Resolved" tag from this topic (or just start a new one). &mdash;  SMcCandlish &#91;talk&#93; &#91;contrib&#93; ツ 00:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Four Ball
Four ball is a very popular carom game played in Korea. Even though I can't find an English webpage that explains how to play (an indication the game may not be popular among English speakers), I feel the game should be documented in wikipedia.

I can attest that the game is played in the US, as I know it's played in a pool hall in Boston that has carom tables.

I'd like to gather up all the information I have on Four Ball (hopefully by finding a set of rules from a book) and write up a new article. Any objections or thoughts from other people before I move forward?

Note that it's a *carom* game, not to be confused with "American Four-Ball Billiards". The following quote from the Billiard Congress of America website explains American Four-Ball Billiards:

The dominant American billiard game until the 1870’s was American Four-Ball Billiards, usually played on a large (11 or 12-foot), four-pocket table with four balls - two white and two red.

fyi: The game is played with two red balls and two white (cue) balls. One of the white balls is spotted or yellow to differentiate it from the other.

Thanks everyone.--PaulLopez 04:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Hadn't noticed this post before, so this note is a bit retroactive: The vague mention of a variant in the four-ball article stub led me to fork it into four-ball and yotsudama after some investigation. Both articles need more material and especially some references. &mdash; SMcCandlish &#91;talk&#93; &#91;contrib&#93; ツ 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Diamond systems
I played pool for the first time in years Saturday evening. AND--"playing the diamonds" from "Donald Duck in MatheMagic Land" popped into my head. So, I tried to remember how that technique worked---but I couldn't. I did find that if I aimed the cue ball at a diamond, I was much more successful in knocking the target ball into a pocket. I did a Google search on "playing the diamonds", and this Wikipedia discussion page was the only hit that came up relevant to pool or billiards. Go figure. Hard to believe "playing the diamonds" was a technique known well enough to be explained in a Disney movie from the '50s and yet has no direct references on the Internet. Jeff Wilson--Milwaukie, Oregon

^^^ I would imagine that "playing the diamonds" is a reference to using the "diamond system" to calculate certain shots, usually banks and kicks, sometimes assigning numbers to each diamond and using basic math and geometry to increase the probability that the shot will be online. try searching for "pool diamond-system" in google for more information. MK Ohio

There are multiple diamond systems out there, and none of them is perfect. Most are used for 3-cushion billiards, but even there the systems aren't perfect because the rebounds off the cushions are not perfect (for multiple reasons). In other words, the angle of incidence is not equal to the angle of reflection. So, although such systems can give a general idea of where the ball will rebound to, experience and practice are the best "systems." Brian Pearson -- Saline, Michigan

Beer-In-Hand?
Someone uploaded a beer-in-hand pool game, which is OK if it is a real game. However, does the billiards glossary really need a "Beer in Hand" entry? Mrpaulus 17:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Does this really belong in the glossary? I have been playing pool for 15 years, and have never heard that term. Its a pool variant not a general term. Also, it does not strike me as a common word. The glossary is not that long, and as such should only include the most used terms associated with billiards (.e.g. bank shot) MichaelJHuman 16:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think not (re: does it belong in glossary); it's nothing but a college WP:NFT smartass variant of "jacked-up pool" (which may or may not already be in the glossary) and drinking game. Not novel in any way.  The Beer-In-Hand article is subject to an AfD as of this writing. &mdash;  SMcCandlish &#91;talk&#93; &#91;contrib&#93; ツ 21:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: The AfD succeeded. &mdash; SMcCandlish &#91;talk&#93; &#91;contrib&#93; ツ 08:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This talk Page
I updated this talk page so that the table of contents would show up at the top to facilitate better communication. When making a new comment please put use an existing subject section or create a new one - thanks! Mrpaulus 17:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Further Cleanup?
This article is still tagged for cleanup from December 2004. What items are recognized as needing cleanup before we remove the tag? RJFJR 21:33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The section on shooting techniques is full of bolds. is this preferred style?
 * What is the status of the proposal to create a disambiguation page? (It's discussed above but I only skimmed through that while looking for cleanup discussions).
 * Well, no arguments were made against creating a disambiguation page. I still think it's the best idea, since most of the information presented here as general refers only to pool games. RMoloney 02:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The list of games has about four games. four games! There are hundreds of variations of billiards, and we need them desperately. --Ballchef 11:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

General comments again
I added most of the content to this page, but obviously numerous edits have been made. I am not a professional writer, or even a good one. When I reread the page, some of the wording is awkward. It would be nice to have some of the writing redone in a better "voice". Overall, I am happy with the content now. When I first saw this page there was practically nothing here.

The reason I had a section on 8-ball and 9-ball was because these are the most popular games in the US. I felt the article benefited from the discussion of a particular game from a general viewpoint. I am no longer sure this makes sense. Perhaps that needs to be converted to a more general discussion. After all, there are separate articles for those games. Having them described in any detail in the main article does not make sense.

I am not sure this really needs a disambiguation page. By definition, billiards is the blanket term for all cue and ball games played on a table, at least according to all respected billiard authors such as Mike Shamos. I think this goes back to the article being made more general, and sub topics being broken into separate articles.

Anyway, that's my two cents for improving this.

MichaelJHuman 15:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Changes
I just stumbled on this site (actually just realized it was editable by the public) and have been working to add to many of pool and billiards related articles. I am a professional pool player and have an advice column at allexperts.com under the title Pool_Teacher. I Just finished a cleanup, most significantly to clarify the use of the word "english" as referring predominantly to sidespin, and not to follow or draw. (See e.g., http://www.easypooltutor.com/article62.html)

--Fuhghettaboutit 04:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I have rewritten much of this article and expanded it significantly (more to come). In rewriting I came across the following page: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/gr.aspx?word=Billiards&source=http%3a%2f% It appears that the kernel for that page or for this page, I cannot tell which came first, was word-for-word plagiarized from the other. As it states on that page, "This article needs to be cleaned up to conform to a higher standard of quality." Regardless of which came first, I agree. --Fuhghettaboutit 02:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm pretty much done with the major revision. I believe the glossary I have added is the largest and most accurate on the internet in its definitions, and the only one I have seen which has common pool hall vernacular included. There's a whole language spoken only by pool players. I believe I have covered most of the words and expressions that are extremely common. What still needs significant work IMO is the section on three cushion billiards, and artistic billiards should be added in various places. It is a really spectacular game, and I have not seen it mentioned here or on wikipedia at all. Maybe I'll write the article. --Fuhghettaboutit 06:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is too long, the Glossary should be put on a seperate article page and the article should be linked to the main one. There might also be some other sections that should be seperated from the main one, such as english/spin, and perhaps some technical things. Think about someone that is new to billiards and they come across this page. Although it is extensive, it might be overwhelming, and as a pool player myself, I don't want to see that happen. 128.6.175.17 13:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)