Talk:Cuisine of the Midwestern United States

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Jibarito?

 * Does this deserve a mention? - http://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/November-2013/In-Praise-of-the-Jibarito-Chicagos-Greatest-Food-Invention/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.126.150.152 (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Bland
Ok, I'm confused. How is saying "Midwestern cuisine is sometimes refered to as bland." POV. It's a -statement-,,,, some people think Midwestern cuising is bland. Duh. Common knowledge. Hardly POV. Meat, taters, no spices. Heck the sentence immediately before uses the phrase "lightly spiced." It's hardly POV. Rick Boatright 17:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) (Also, _not_ an anon edit. )


 * Sorry about the "anon" bit - it's the first "POV" thing I have on Firefox's auto-form agent. However, unless you can substantiate that "some people" think that way, then that statement is a thinly-veiled POV (Avoid weasel terms). - jredmond 18:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sokay. But uh, I'm confused. "Midwestern food is bland" is a _truism_ of our culture. All the classic jokes apply. "White food for white people." I mean tuna-mushroom soup-macaroni hot dish? With potato chips or the all-time midwestern classic tuna-mushroom soup-Tater Tot hot dish? Macaroni and cheese. Do a google search for "Midwestern food" The top eleven hits contain the word bland. This is, after all the part of the country that leaves the pepper out of the cream gravy on the chicken-fried-steak. Unless, I suppose it's possible that you're one of those easterners who think that Pensylvania is midwestern. Rick Boatright 18:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * As my User: page notes, I'm from Missouri. I'm courting cliché here, but please: show me. - jredmond 18:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Kansas. But ok. References will follow. :-) Rick Boatright 19:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * An Italian Beef with hot peppers is definitly not bland. Neither is a Hot Dog with the works. Reub2000 19:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * True enough, but hardly midwestern cuisine either. Chicago is an ethnic urban center.  Midwestern cuisine _has_ to derive from the vast agricultural expance rom the Ohio river to the rockies... and can't be characterized by the Italians and Poles in Chicago, or the italians in St Louis.   In that regard then, I offer the following proposal.  "Simple but hearty."  in place of bland.  Rick Boatright 19:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Newsflash: Chicago is in the midwest. Reub2000 20:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * True. Are you prepared to contend that Chicago is _characteristic of the 12 state region_? -- I added an "Urban Centers" section to deal with that. Rick Boatright 00:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It is definitly not representitive of the whole area. But generalize an area when a major population center in the area doesn't fit the generalization.Reub2000

-
 * from
 * Midwestern cuisine utilizes simple ingredients to make basic, practical foods that do not contain exotic seasonings and require ordinary cooking techniques.


 * from
 * Crop after crop, season after season, and year after year the farm family ate well, but they ate plainly. Only in the winter, when the pace slowed appreciably, did the farm wife have time to experiment with recipes, and by then only her canned and frozen foods were available. We ate midwestern (frozen) corn fritters, but never "sauteed fresh corn with coriander butter," (frozen) asparagus casserole with cheese, but never "fresh asparagus with Sauce Maltaise," (canned) cherry co

bbler but never "fresh cherry clafouti."
 * from
 * It is simple but hearty -- great roasts and stews, Cornish pasties (meat pies), sarma (Croat cabbage rolls), many different kinds of breads and cakes, trout and whitefish, relishes and pickles, pies and cranberry muffins.

The term 'bland' carries a definite negative connotation. If you're going to use that term, you'll have to find a direct quote, preferably from a food expert. Otherwise use the quotes you've found -- simple but hearty, ate plainly, simple ingredients, practical foods. Those are non-judgmental terms. Bland means 'lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting.'  valereee (talk) 11:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

extensive refactor of main page
I did a very extensive reorganization of the main page to attempt a description of the influences and development of a regional cuisine. Part of the problem I'm having, frankly, is that, other than simply geographical confluance, many authors deny the existance of a "traditional" 'midwestern cuisine, and contend that the region expresses merely a melange of the various immigrant cuisines it derives from. It is certainly true that the regions cultural history is shallow, extending back less than 200 years while other areas have RESTARANTS older than that. anyway, without adding extensive references, this is my best current shot. Rick Boatright 19:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Juicy Lucy?
I am from Minneapolis and have eaten at about every restaraunt of note there, and have never EVER heard of the Juicy Lucy.

Sukiari 08:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You've apparently missed Matt's Bar and the 5-8 Club (the classic Jucy Lucy/Juicy Lucy establishments) in your dining experiences. -- Kaszeta 18:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I read that City Pages article too. It's what we call 'marketing' in the real world. And I've been to Matt's more times than I care to remember. Sukiari 23:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You've been to Matt's "more times than you care to remember" and never heard of a Jucy Lucy? Sorry, I find that very hard to believe.  Seriously, that place has been pushing Jucy Lucys like a crack dealer for decades -- Kaszeta 02:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't go to Matt's to eat! Sukiari 10:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Nor, apparently, to read the signage (the place says, and has said "Home of the Jucy Lucy" on it, and has for at least 15 years).  If you're just there to drink, I hope you like 3.2 beer -- Kaszeta 13:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Unless somebody can mention several restaurants in Mineapolis / St. Paul where Juicy Lucy burgers can be had, I am going to delete the reference.

Sukiari 21:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * In addition to the above-mentioned restaurants, a few other places in the metro area serve it (see this list), under a variety of spellings. Probably more places than have lutefisk on the menu.  Additionally, the Jucy Lucy warranted its own chapter in John T. Edge's Hamburger and Fries (ISBN 0399152741), and there are several web references to this burger phenomenon.  So just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


 * Mind you, I'm not entirely happy with the way the text was worded, so I've taken a stab at editing it to make it more accurate. -- Kaszeta 18:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I just think it's hardly 'well known' in Minneapolis or elsewhere. It was a trend food - the edible Pog of Minneapolis if you will. It is not well known or widespread in Minneapolis, St. Paul, or elsewhere. Perhaps its the only Minneapolis based dish of note, but I think a caveat that it is hardly well known there, and only available from a handful of burger joints should be added.

Sukiari 23:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Not an unreasonable summary -- Kaszeta 02:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I live in Minneapolis, and have been aware of the Juicy Lucy for decades. Matt's is probably the best known source, along with the 5-8 Club, and another little 3-2 beer joint known as The Cardinal at 38th Street and Hiawatha Avenue... all three of these places are within walking or biking distance of each other on a nice day, assuming one would care to walk or bike after eating one of these things. It's similar to a "Patty Melt", which is a cheeseburger with the cheese on the inside, but served on a bun rather than toast, and a heck of a lot tastier. I have also run across the juicy lucy in rural Minnesota.

Ice Cream in Minneapolis
To quote the article: "Twin Cities residents eat more ice cream per capita than in any other region of the country." Anyone have a cite on this? This sounds dubious, since (a) when I lived in the Twin Cities neither the ice cream consumption nor number of parlors seemed unusually high compared to other places, (b) conflicting data (indeed, it's hard to find a place that hasn't made this claim, and (c) usually these sorts of claims are dubious anyways. -- Kaszeta 18:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Twin Cities not having an identifyable food?
How about: Wild rice soup, fried walleye, hot dish (Casserole to those who live inside the 394-494 beltway) and corn dogs? (Invented at the Minnesota State Fair).

ColdRedRain 14:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Try to tell me that Detroit has more Polish food than Chicago
If I am reading this page correctly, it would seem that Detroit has more Poles than Chicago. This is clearly incorrect. Chicago has more citizens of Poland (not to mention American Citizens who consider themselves Polish) than any other city in the world, with the exception of Warsaw.

Cleveland
Nothing at all about Cleveland here? I know it's probably the blandest of the Midwestern bland, but there must be SOMETHING worth mentioning (wish I could think what it is...) JDS2005 07:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

"Blandest of the Midwestern bland"? I'm sorry? Kielbasa and other sausages, pierogi, saurkraut balls (actually invented in Akron), great Hungarian fare such as stuffed peppers and chicken paprikash and, recently an Iron Chef (Michael Symon)! How is this "blandest of the bland"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.100.185.46 (talk) 19:15, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Twin Cities Cooking
As a long term resident of the Twin Cities, I'll be the first to tell you, Minnesota cooking will never be influenced by the minority groups who live here. Everybody here can't cook and will never be open to spicy foods from the Somali, Hmong and Mexican immigrant groups that come here.

Don't expect to see any samboosa hotdish anytime soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ColdRedRain (talk • contribs) 01:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Ha interesting observation given that the entire article itself is just a humongous hodge podge of assumptions. I will be cleaning the MSP section toward a more conservative assumption of our cuisine. davumaya 03:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Cincinnati Chili
A major food. That is the reason the road food people gave Cincinnati a multiple star. And no restaurant mentioned - Cincinnati chili is an icon of the city. --Dumarest 21:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The current wording in the article is inaccurate in that "Cincinnati chili" is what the chili/thin meat sauce is called, not the word for this method of serving it. The preparation mentioned, of spaghetti, chili, and cheese, is called a "3-way". There is also a 5-way with onions and beans added to the 3-way, and a 4-way that includes either onions or beans. Cincinnati chili is also served, probably as frequently (as in both are offered; I won't speak to popularity) in a coney preparation (over a hot dog in a bun), often topped with cheese as well. Ullpianissimo (talk) 10:44, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

The Dakotas?
It is surprising that an article on Midwestern cuisine contains no mention of the Dakotas or widely distributed foods such as fleishkeuchle or knoepfle soup.85.50.70.69 17:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Michigan
Another well known food item from Michigan is pickled bologna or pickled ring bologna. Its not fancy, but its delicious and a well known Michigan staple. I love the line from the 'You Might Be A Michigander If...' list...."If you can tell the difference between Farmer Peet's and Kogel's Pickled Bologna, and strongly defend your preference about which one goes best with Pinconning Cheese." I didn't add it to the article page because I'm not sure what qualifies, but I thought I'd add it here for consideration. JSDA 08:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Language (soda vs. pop)
I move for the deletion of this paragraph. The reference is just an internet poll, not good research, and the researcher is obviously biased towards one over the other (quote: "People who say "Pop" are much, much cooler."). 69.95.240.154 (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Any opponents to this discussion care to weigh in? Clamshell (talk) 15:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the soda verse pop issue is notable and interesting as it relates to regionalism and Midwestern culture. It doesn't sound like this bit is based on a good source, but the subject is a good example of the distinctive word usage that would be good to cover in the article as it relates to food and drink items. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

New comments regarding Milwaulkee fish fry and scrapple's origins
What about the Milwaukee Fish Fry culture? I didn't see any mention of this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.235.202 (talk) 17:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Under Wisconsin 75.57.123.89 (talk) 07:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Is scrapple really a midwest food? I thought it was from the Philadelphia area.

Fold-over Pizza
I'm from Ohio and have lived in Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati and have never heard of "fold-over" style pizza. It may exist, but it's certainly not a major regional food. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.97.99 (talk) 22:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Urban centers/Barberton, OH
Does Barberton OH belong under the heading urban centers? Their dish may very well belong in this article, but I'm not sure any city this small can be called an Urban Center of the Midwest. Not sure what a better heading would be, though. valereee (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

see also section
Why is there a link to list of african-american museums? valereee (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I have removed the link, which is rather unrelated to the topic of Midwestern cuisine. North America1000 15:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Misleading Article
This entire article is nothing but an intellectually infantile, parochial stereotype. The "Midwest" isn't even a meaningful cultural-geographic category, and a lot of the stereotypes presented in the article (and in its "Talk" section) are the OPPOSITE of what I experienced my entire life growing up in almost every cultural-geographical region of the "Midwest" (I use quotes because I think the term isn't meaningful enough to be useful, and in fact can often mislead).

You quote: "Crop after crop, season after season, and year after year the farm family ate well, but they ate plainly. Only in the winter, when the pace slowed appreciably, did the farm wife have time to experiment with recipes, and by then only her canned and frozen foods were available. We ate midwestern (frozen) corn fritters, but never "sauteed fresh corn with coriander butter," (frozen) asparagus casserole with cheese, but never "fresh asparagus with Sauce Maltaise," (canned) cherry cobbler but never "fresh cherry clafouti."  What is this source?  The subjective experience of one person in one (socioeconomically deprived, it sounds) household in one county in one part of one state?  Creative writing?

Moving on. The "clafaouti" referred to by the author quoted above is these days sold in France in yogurt cup-like containers in supermarkets for less than a euro (manufactured by companies like Danone and Yoplait), and it's certainly not viewed in its nation of origin the way the quoted author views it (in fact, clafouti [a hearty egg custard served when homemade like a pie / tart] is actually a very homey dish, and these days the majority of households in France, when they bake a dessert like clafouti at home at all, wouldn't likely do so without a pre-made ingredient or several). In fact, in the 1950s United States, purchasing pre-made food ingredients in the supermarket was viewed as a sign of modernization / hipness / even, yes, wealth. I believe what's going on here (with the "clafouti" excerpt author above) is the glamorization of a French word referring to a French food, however homey that food might often be in actuality. (The author strikes me as quite ignorant of international food culture in general -- and perhaps even a bit deceitful, since her odd account makes it hard to believe that (s)he actually grew up on a productive, prosperous farm in the Midwest, as my own ancestors did.) What I'm calling into question with this paragraph is the credibility of what seems to be one of the main sources used by this article's editors.

I grew up in nearly every cultural region within what's usually defined as the "Midwest" and my experience couldn't have been more different from the author's quoted in the paragraph above. I had never lived outside of the "Midwest," in fact, until I moved to the Washington, D.C. area about ten years ago. I miss the fabulous FRESH, creative, funky, foodie, gourmand, fabulous offerings in the large cities and mid-sized towns of the "Midwest" where I grew up more than you could possibly imagine. A "sandwich" in the D.C. area / Mid-Atlantic region generally refers to a gigantic hot concoction loaded with meat and cheese. When I ask about good sandwich places here, I'm directed to delicatessens, not cute café-bakeries serving light and creative house-made salads, sandwiches, soups, grainy breads, and baked desserts. (Such businesses are VERY much a "Midwest" tradition -- or at least the parts of the "Midwest" where I grew up -- and would be considered by the vast majority of Americans as very "foodie" establishments.) Vegetarian options tend to be sparser in the Mid-Atlantic than where I grew up. Produce in grocery stores in much of the Mid-Atlantic (especially the D.C. area) is as often decorative as something anyone would actually buy. DINER FARE? The part of the country where I live now invented it, and it's still what you'll find more than anything else in this area. To reiterate, growing up in the "Midwest," I became accustomed to LIGHTER FOOD (yes) than I can easily grab here. Ironically, as I read the "clafouti" excerpt, I couldn't help recall that I grew up eating things like (very generally, since a lot of these dishes sound a bit dated to me; I was growing up at the pinnacle of the "New American" movement, in the "Midwest" and elsewhere) -- "sauteed fresh corn with coriander butter" (honestly, do you think such a dish is consumed regularly by even a single Long Islander?) and "fresh asparagus with Sauce Maltaise." (My mom, who was born in Iowa, as was I, was by far the most "foodie" individual I've ever personally known.) At some point I'm going to take on a large research project involving food and the American "Midwest" (I work at the National Archives as a cataloger, so I have access to at least some sources that will help me with this). It's a project that's been begging to be completed for nearly a century now.

Important to note: the southern parts of Illinois, Indiana are culturally Southern, and far more like Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, and even inland parts of the (North-) East Coast, as far north as New England, than the rest of the "Midwest," as is almost the entire state of Missouri (minus its two largest cities). This is an extraordinarily complex issue, though, since there was also a culture shared historically by the nation's largest Northern cities, which exist in both the Northeast and the "Midwest."

Iconic, if generally unhealthy, foods originating in a few restaurants in the early-to-mid twentieth century in one city in one cultural-geographical region of an enormous, diverse, maligned, misunderstood, generally *not truly experienced*-by-its-detractors part of the country do not represent that region's cuisine. Such foods were springing up in cities across the United States around the turn of the twentieth century, when American families first started eating outside of the home very regularly / casually. Obviously, something as iconic as Chicago-style deep dish pizza and Vienna Beef hot dogs, St. Louis's quirky offerings (including "toasted ravioli from "the Hill" gooey butter cake, provolone pizza, and plenty of others) are definitely worth highlighting in an article like this, but there seems to be a tendency by Wikipedia editors to associate foods like these from a particular city in the "Midwest" (something like Cincinnati chili, which I ate for the first time in Alexandria, Virginia's world-famous Hard Times Café) with the entire region's cuisine.  (If one insists on associating Cincinnati Chili with an entire region of the United States, (s)he should associate it with the Northern / Upland South, since Kentuckians would be far more familiar with the dish than the vast, vast majority of "Midwesterners," many of whom would live farther away from Cincinnati than Cincinnati is from NYC.)  Incidentally, for iconic "junk food" dishes associated with one particular large city, the Northeast takes the Tasty Kake.

The molecular gastronomy movement originating in Chicago badly needs a write-up, as does Chicago's restaurant scene in general -- it is one of only four cities in the U.S. to have its own Michelin guide, and until very recently was only one of three.

Restaurants in Kansas City, Missouri/Kansas have received more James Beard awards per capita than any other locality in the United States (and this isn't just a recent trend). A mention of KC's restaurant culture is due, and I don't just mean its internationally iconic barbecue (what most these days think of as "barbecue sauce" originated in Kansas City, but KC barbecue has largely ignored by the TV "food dudes). I'm also referring to the city's *very* long-standing (and surreally surprising to first-time visitors) incredible restaurant / café / gourmet food scene.  To quote native Missourian Mark Twain, "Truth is stranger than fiction."

BAKERIES as a center of Midwestern cookery needs to be emphasized.

Pea salad, as well as other dishes associated with (exclusively, for some reason) Midwestern picnics and potlucks, were some of the most popular side dishes served at the Waldorf-Astoria New York in the 1920s, as well as the nation's other toniest hotels and restaurants in that period. (Cottage cheese was also universally served as a side dish at these places in the early half of the twentieth century.) How such foods began to be associated strongly with the Midwestern United States is a subject I plan to tackle in my research project (and eventual book, possibly). I have some theories, but they *don't* involve the "Midwest" hanging onto these foods after they were seen as commonplace (and eventually dated) elsewhere in the country -- that's more of a Northeastern thing. -- 96.241.166.156


 * The above is entirely original research. Content to be added / changed must be verifiable with inline citations linking to independent, third-party, reliable sources. — Confession0791 talk 21:36, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

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Ohio shredded chicken
There is a new addition regarding Ohio cuisine over at. Your assistance is welcome! Ibadibam (talk) 05:40, 2 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Hm...it's definitely a thing, per various recipes and blogs and one article in Lancaster Online. Dann Woellert covers it in a lengthy blog post; he's got multiple books on food history in print, but if it's only in his blog, that's pretty shaky. Certainly it wouldn't rate an article. --valereee (talk) 10:41, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Minneapolis
To the IP who is upset about the removal, can we discuss this? I think everyone's work is important and we can work on adding the sources together.

Some of the content is promotional and would have to be rewritten. This includes using words like "authentic", "well-received", "Chicago-influenced African American barbecue restaurants", "quite popular", "the famed Nicollet Avenue", "very popular", "Thanks to her persistence and success" ... all of this will need citations.

Hickoryglaze (talk) 19:33, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Hello. as far as using terms such as authentic and quite or very popular, I am of the belief that in reading the entry in context contributors have simply used adjectives for descriptive purposes and not in a promotional manner as if they were attempting to do blatant advertising.  The famed Nicollet Avenue is well know locally as "eat street"  and it provides a reader with direct information. I'm sure it won't be too hard to find a source for that.  The issue with "Thanks to her persistence and success" is cited in "Catching Up with Sawatdee's Supenn Harrison". Twin Cities Daily Planet. 21 February 2011. Retrieved 16 July 2015."

174.20.76.213 (talk) 21:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I read your comment on my talk page and am making some changes based on your comment. I removed the waterfront development and Kramarczuks. Minnesota has a very rich food cultur, and some of these details would be especially valuable in the main article and the city articles.Hickoryglaze (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Recent edits
There have been some recent edits to the article that make sense and some that doesn't make sense. It would be great to have some input here on what should be in the article and some help to correct some content.
 * finding sources for uncited content
 * finding better sources for content attributed to blogs or restaurants

Other than that, it would be best not to removed cited content without discussing it on the talk page. Regarding removing links - I am not sure why gyros were removed. It's not any more standard than ice cream cones. From my experience living in the Midwest and other places, there are some cities that have a strong Greek presence - and others that don't. I think it's good to call it out.

There was a lot of content removed and then some added back so it's probably best to look at this diff for changes made between November 21 and today.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Restoring the sections for Columbus and St. Louis with cited content is urgent. It would be great to have some input on that.
 * As for the list of foods, I think removing ice cream cone, and maybe a few others is a good suggestion, for the same reason. Before I started editing, the article introduced the list as foods that "often feature uniquely Midwestern preparation styles", which I adhered to when I decided to remove "gyro (loaf-style)". (Is that a sandwich? I couldn't find anything about "loaf-style" gyro on Google.) Now that you mention ice cream cone, I do think it's another good candidate for removal. I'm happy to discuss further, and it would be great if we could restore the other content with good sources. Rosegallow (talk) 00:10, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Addendum on "gyro (loaf style)" is a type of meatloaf that is baked in a pan at home and sliced thinly "like gyro". It looks like Meatloaf is already linked in that same section. If this is content we want to keep, would explaining the significance of "loaf style gyro" in the meatloaf article be helpful? Rosegallow (talk) 02:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I have had gyro meat in the Midwest, but not loaf style. But, that's not to say that Greeks don't eat it like that. Is it necessary to have "loaf style", which limits the types of Gyros? See Pesto Veggie Gyros, Midwest Living here; Gyros, Chicago Tribune here; Hamtramack, Gyro capital of upper Midwest, Metro Times here, interesting page (blog?) about Greek food in the Midwest here, but not likely a reliable source.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly, it's "Greek food". I have been looked around for a more reliable source and found things like "Greek food has escaped the America tendency to appropriate foreign cuisines" and Greek churches sponsor festivals to introduce non-Greek Americans and neighbors to "Greek food and culture". It's always, always described as "Greek food". There are many similar foods (like pho or kolaches) that are not listed, and others that are (like pierogie and Chicken paprikash). Some are less justifiable than gyro. Rosegallow (talk) 15:35, 5 December 2022 (UTC)