Talk:Cult of Reason/Archive 1

Chronology

 * This is about an issue that has now been dealt with.

The article as it stands lacks dates and strongly suggests that the Cult of Reason formed in reaction to Robespierre's Cult of the Supreme Being. I'm not certain, but I think it was more the other way around. Certainly the public celebrations of the Cult of Reason all predate the ascendency of the Cult of the Supreme Being, which came after Hébert was guillotined. But I'm much weaker on this period than I am on 1789-1792. Does someone have this chronology clear? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:11, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I had the same impression based on an article I found on the Web. -- David Wallace Croft 04:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)]]


 * Since no one has commented to the contrary in the nearly year and a half since I brought this up, I am editing accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 22:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * At least browsing the web, all indications seem to be in the same direction, although I haven't spotted anything from a source so authoritative as to be definitive. is typical. - Jmabel | Talk 22:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Cult is masonic
It is a masonic and deist cult. Cult is based on French Freemasonic principles. So it is a masonic cult. It will be very wrong to say it is an atheist cult. The main motivation behind the cult was Masonic Enlightenment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.228.39.56 (talk) 13:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Atheist or deist
The first sentence (see quote below) seems contradictory: it states that the Cult of Reason was an atheist religion, but that it had once worshiped a goddess (the personification of reason). Which is it? Atheist or deist? If it was both, then we shouldn't state that it was one "rather than" the other. E. Cobham Brewer's book states "[t]he Goddess of Reason was enthroned by the French Convention at the suggestion of Chaumette; and the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris was desecrated for the purpose." It seems to me the term atheist is a poor description in light of this fact and that we should perhaps strike it from the text. Any other ideas? MisterDub (talk) 19:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

"The Cult of Reason (French: Culte de la Raison) was a creed based on atheism, rather than the preexisting deist goddess of reason, devised during the French Revolution by Jacques Hébert, Pierre Gaspard Chaumette and their supporters and intended as a replacement for Christianity."

"They worshipped Reason, but they didn't believe in her existence as a conscious being outside the human mind. There is a difference between believing in deities and worshipping them. Atheism usually refers to the lack of the former." Mortimer Lanin

I am in agreement that the Cult Of Reason is not an Atheist Religion. The apologetic to suggest it's based on "atheism" is without citation and would literally require ignoring the historical worship of the Goddess. Goddesses were often associated with Wisdom, and this goddess in Greek would be Athena, a goddess of wisdom and war. This Goddess may also be in relation to Hokmah to whom in Proverbs is depicted as lady wisdom as Proverbs is "Wisdom's Rebuke" we come to know as Hokmah in Proverbs 8. In some literature she is referred to as possibly Yahweh's daughter There is no way this is an Atheist religion based on "Atheism". Especially when the cult worshiping a goddess in any way, shape, or form cannot by definition ever possibly be "atheistic". Claiming this is atheistic is a gross lack of understanding what atheism actually means. Dechristianization does not equate to atheism when it's being replaced by another religion and another idol, or concept of god. Even if we consider Mormo's clarification that this goddess is not some sentient being, it's still the idolization of Reason as a GOD even if argued it is within ourselves. That's is equating reason with divinity, and worshiping it as such is not Atheistic, or Atheism. Hence if Atheists worshiped Nature as a GOD, they would then no longer be "Atheists", they would in fact be Pantheists. You can't replace one concept idea of god for another and then claim it's Atheistic.

Under this understanding, I am striking out "Atheism" as there is no academic foundation to support the idea even if the idea is in reference to the abstract of the idea that gods are within our selves as that would be worshiping our selves as idols.


 * Perhaps it's not necessary to describe the Cult as strictly atheist, since its tenets were hardly set in stone and varied considerably among time and place. I made a revision now which hopefully redresses things. SteveStrummer (talk) 03:22, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I wonder if antitheistic is really a better adjective. Do we have sources that mention either of these terms (atheist/antitheist)?  -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 16:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


 * MisterDub, It's not atheistic at all. Reason is not something we can attribute to as only a tenet of Atheism. There is no Atheistic concept in the Cult of Reason, please see the definition of Atheism. Since they are worshiping Reason as a Goddess, it can not be "anti-theistic" or "Atheistic". Trying to rename or suggest it as "Anti-theistic" is just another way to try and call it atheistic. And all religions with a GOD concept are dismissive of the existence of the gods of other religions whether or not they get violent and aggressive in denying other concepts of god to promote their own. This is clearly theistic, and the Cult of Reason should be classified under theism. You can say they were anti-Christianity even though one of the main offenders, Jean-Baptiste Carrier, was likely a Jesuit. Though I am not even sure if he was a part of the Cult of Reason, it's noted that the Jesuits were repressed by France and the Roman Catholic Church prior to the French Revolution. And more notably, there is no evidence of him being Atheist either. I can not find an academic source that shows anything in the French revolution being done for specific purpose of Atheism. This especially with the cult of reason. Thus the historians as far as I can tell only suggested it is based on atheism because it was anti-christian. That's not how you determine what is and isn't "Atheism". SniprKlr (talk) 05:06, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * SniprKlr, I'm aware of what these terms mean, but I'm asking if we have reliable sources that characterize the Cult of Reason as either. If not, maybe we should remove the adjective entirely.  -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 23:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and done. Perhaps we can bring the terms back later with reliable sources. SteveStrummer (talk) 23:47, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, SniprKlr: the question of atheism vs anti-theism is a very difficult one to answer, but one point is certain: the Cult of Reason was not "clearly theistic". Members did not "worship Reason as a Goddess". The quotation from Momoro is quite straightforward: Reason is a human faculty, to be venerated and respected but never idolized, because it is not an entity unto itself. The article on the Goddess of Reason confuses this subject greatly by its very existence, and for this reason I have for a long time pondered putting it to AfD. I'm loath to delete any article about the French Revolution, but that one only serves to confuse readers who, understandably, assume there must be something more to it, and hence draw the conclusion that the Goddess figure was somehow really important. She was not. She was a costumed figure at a celebration: a mascot of sorts, no more important than the similarly-styled "Goddess of Liberty" who usually accompanied her. Her role would probably not be remembered at all but for the fact that Momoro's own wife famously played her in the Paris festival (Mme. Momoro happened to be an actress). Carlyle treats the Goddess with brief whimsy, and very few accounts even mention her at all. I still don't yet know what to say about atheism vs. anti-theism, but "clearly theistic" is, as they say, right out. SteveStrummer (talk) 23:27, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I disagree.. Having any concept, belief, or worship of a GOD in any context is by definition theism. You cannot claim it is anti-theism when the opposing cult is appears to perhaps be theistic. Especially when you need citation to show they are against the belief in gods entirely. You can only at best suggest this cult was anti-christian. If they are equating Reason to the likeness of a GODDESS in any form or way, it is by definition in my understanding theism, or maybe possibly agnostic at best. Your argument does not fit in the definition of Atheism or anything regarding as being "anti-theistic". You have no citation to even show any of them including Momoro saying they are atheists, or saying they denounce the existence of all GODs. After all, one of them turned out to be Deist. As far as I can tell, they are idolizing liberty / Reason as a part of themselves. But even if they weren't as you suggest, this doesn't really say anything about their personal beliefs in Gods in general were, or were not.  The quote you presented by the way does not say they "shouldn't be idolized". You are now skewing the quote, and thus you are going to need further citation. But at this juncture, I don't think atheism or anti-theism fits. I think for now it's better to say they were anti-christian and leave it at that. And the very reason you don't find or see much in regards to what you are looking for is because the cult's existence quickly evaporated. There wasn't much there to begin with to draw any significant conclusions on.  And that clearly was due to their total lack of reason as irony seems to have killed that cult, especially after the start of the cult of the supreme being. Furthermore, Other references such as the following suggest that liberty and reason are being equated with divinity:

"This impious and ridiculous mummery had a certain fashion; and the installation of the Goddess of Reason was renewed and imitated throughout the nation, in such places where the inhabitants desired to show themselves equal to all the heights of the Revolution."--Scott, vol. 1, ch. 17.

Said the orator who introduced the worship of Reason: "Legislators! Fanaticism has given way to reason. Its bleared eyes could not endure the brilliancy of the light. This day an immense concourse has assembled beneath those gothic vaults, which, for the first time, re-echoed the truth. There the French have celebrated the only true worship,--that of Liberty, that of Reason. There we have formed wishes for the prosperity of the arms of the Republic. There we have abandoned inanimate idols for Reason, for that animated image, the masterpiece of nature."--M. A. Thiers, History of the French Revolution, vol. 2, pp. 370, 371." SniprKlr (talk) 24:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.149.243 (talk)