Talk:Culture of England/Archive 1

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Culture of England. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090408180723/http://www.gunpowderplot.parliament.uk:80/adults_plot_ac.htm to http://www.gunpowderplot.parliament.uk/adults_plot_ac.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080928054144/http://dictionary.law.com:80/definition2.asp?selected=248 to http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=248

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External links modified
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I have just modified 4 one external links on Culture of England. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/poll/directors-directors.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110930173905/http://lso.co.uk/page/3151/LSO-and-Film-Music to http://lso.co.uk/page/3151/LSO-and-Film-Music
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110906053003/http://www.tennisfame.com:80/hall-of-famers/walter-wingfield to http://www.tennisfame.com/hall-of-famers/walter-wingfield
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061209192457/http://www.travour.com/icc-cricket-world-cup-2007-west-indies/cricket-world-cup-teams/england-cricket-team-profile.html to http://www.travour.com/icc-cricket-world-cup-2007-west-indies/cricket-world-cup-teams/england-cricket-team-profile.html

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External links modified
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I have just modified 5 external links on Culture of England. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080929075523/http://www.piers.co.uk/piers.htm to http://www.piers.co.uk/piers.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090505015321/http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/CUSTOMS/questions/costume.html to http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/costume.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080609053731/http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/TechnicalManual/Ch49-60/Chapter52/part1/part_1.htm to http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/TechnicalManual/Ch49-60/Chapter52/part1/part_1.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120615221043/http://statisticalyearbook11.ry.com/?id=82856 to http://statisticalyearbook11.ry.com/?id=82856
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130201123633/http://www.royalsocietyofstgeorge.com/bibliography.htm to http://www.royalsocietyofstgeorge.com/bibliography.htm

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
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Orphaned references in Culture of England
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Culture of England's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "NP": From Gothic architecture: Nikolaus Pevsner, An Outline of European Architecture.  From Isaac Newton:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:56, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

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The English character?
Stiff upper lip. Notion of "proper" (doing the right thing etc). you rock my home doggies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.239.112.14 (talk) 17:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Terrible
As of Friday 8th September 2006, this article is nothing short of terrible. It is full of of POV statements and unverified and nonsensical assertions. The lead section is scatty, lengthy and not-refferenced.

Culture of Scotland is a far superior article - I think this page needs a lot of work to bring it upto scratch! I've made some changes to fulfil even the most basic of Wikipedia's article requirements - much more is needed! Please help! 86.133.72.79 22:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * seems like alot of this is based on stereotype. wikitravels version is better. Pratj 23:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I totally agree, this article is utterly ridiculous. The opening sentence says it all: "The Culture of England is the national culture of England." Who wrote this crap? There is no way anyone could accurately sum up the entire culture of England in one article. The diversity of English culture makes it totally impossible to include every single aspect of English 'culture'. A section about music alone could be a mile long.
 * Even the bits this article has covered it has done badly. The intro seems to explain more about history than culture. The Art section is good but by no means comprehensive. The cuisine section in just one big stereotype. The folklore section is just a long list of words that most English people will have never heard of. Heritage section is ok but I don't see what it has to do with 'culture', seems more like history to me. As for the religion section - it makes us all seem like pagans. This article has an identity crisis. Is it about English culture? Or is it about everything to do with England ever? DELETE THIS ARTICLE AND START FROM FRESH NOW. Abc30 01:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * was the original wrote by an englishman or not. it seems like alot of this is what outsiders appear our culture to be rather than what our cultures really is. anyway, a rewrite of most sections is needed. the folklore section, i have never heard of most of them, they sound like pub names. Pratj 17:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I would urge users to take a look again at Culture of Scotland, but also Culture of France, Culture of Israel and Culture of India as good (but not excellent) examples of a national culture article. Surely the English can do better.... Brunel, Shakesphere, industrial revolution, King Arthur, Turner, castles, Lowry, Darwin, english language, Isaac-Newton, Dickins, knights, churches, farming, robin hood, beatles, elgar, etc etc. This isn't even scraping anything of a serious academic nature! 86.133.72.79 22:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy disputed
As other have noted above, the article is full of unsourced, innaccurate and absurd statements, implying for instance that Paganism is the major religion in England. I added an accuracy-disputed tag. As suggested, deletion and rewrite is probably the best thing to do.Paul111 10:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have been ultra-bold (nay, foolhardy) and reverted to the state of the article as it was on 4 September before many of the contested statements were added. It's a sketchy article which needs improvement. I'll put back the tag - but please revert if this has been a step too far. Man vyi 11:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A vast improvement. However, the article needs to concentrate more on English culture as a national culture, on the anomalous four-nation status in the UK, and how English culture relates to British culture. At present it is too much of a list.Paul111 11:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of England's leading contemporary artists include...
I just that you now start a consensus of big this list should be, othrwise this one will grow to the same size. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Since most of the topics are covered by a standalone article, maybe this would be better merged with culture of UK? at the moment it's still too piecemeal and like a list. Maybe it should concentrate on English culture historically, like before the union, how the english identity first emerged etc. Present-day inter-cultural differences in UK aren't really too pronounced in my view, and even now the article is more about historical contributions of the English than English 'culture'. Culture of France is much better, more about how the history informs the culture rather than just listing the history. Narpf43 (talk) 16:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Missing points
This article it not a view of the culture of England, but rather something closer to Merry England article.

If it is to be expanded in that way:
 * "There will always be an England while there is a country lane." The section on buildings should also include mention of cottages with examples as found in Cornwall, the Cotswolds, Half timber (black and white), and a couple from the north (Yorkshire and Lake District).
 * Oxbridge needs a section.
 * The Westminster Parliamentary system (The English fought a civil war on this issue).

If it is to be expanded in how England is today then it needs to reflect that the majority of people live in or near large conurbations, and should be based on government statistics on what culture in England really is. For example most people do not live in country mansions, but in small urban dwellings. Their major interests are probably based on things delivered via electronic media. Watching sport not participating in it, eating fish and chips (or whatever) etc.

-- PBS (talk) 11:03, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Bloat
Given we have a separate article on Culture of the United Kingdom this article is becoming problematic. It is increasingly populated with UK examples that are not uniquely English in nature. The assumption that "for UK read England" is problematic anyway but we shouldn't be expanding this. So authors such as Dickens are clearly English, but the BBC, the Royal Society etc are UK wide institutions. Opening this for discussion -Snowded TALK 04:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree it's bloated, and not just because of the UK and Britain.
 * Since it doesn't offer insight into the commonality of the various aspects, it reads rather like a laundry list. The "Tourism and cultural landmarks" section really is just a list. Perhaps reliable sources might be found for some over-arching story.
 * What is the definition of "English"? I feel that many items are there because they were invented in England, but are actually pretty common elsewhere, and might be claimed as typical of other cultures, e.g. football and seaside piers. We do already have List of English inventions and discoveries.
 * Shorten the many sections which have their own articles, e.g. Architecture of England, English art, etc.
 * Pare back some of the more questionable and unref'd assertions like "Gardening, visiting gardens, and a love for gardens are regarded as typically English pursuits."
 * the article is badly over-referenced.
 * regarding the UK and Britain, one could argue that many items supersede England, especially anything that happened since the industrial era. Not sure why Twiglets are omitted but perhaps because the company that invented them was pan-UK. Could the north even have been industrialised as it was without Irish immigration? --Cornellier (talk) 20:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There's a weird upper middle-class nationalism throughout the article too, and it does little to address the diversity of experiences/expressions in English culture. Intro seems like complete fluff "Humour, tradition and good manners are characteristics commonly associated with being English.[2] England has played a significant role in literature, science, social science, mathematics, drama, engineering, technology, democracy, music, and folklore. Birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, many inventions and technological advancements were made in England, and English inventors and scientists have influenced the modern world." and I'm very tempted to delete/trim it down quite drastically. Feel like the article should be informative rather than read like an overly romanticized "Visit England"/English and Proud brochure.Boredintheevening (talk) 11:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Multiple-image galleries
Multiple image says at the top of its documentation that Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text., and cautions us to "Be aware that this template does not respect users' default image size preferences."

This article had a few cases where four images were combined into such a sidebar gallery, but this is a lengthy article, there is room to put them next to the text. In some cases, such as the Lindisfarne Gospels, it may be better to have the image next to a paragraph that refers to Lindisfarne, rather than grouping it into a 2x2 gallery in another section.

I took a few of these out earlier today, and User:82.3.96.145 has put them all back in what I think was a straight revert of my edit with the summary "General article clean up".

Should this article be using 2x2 gallery thumbnails when there's space to use regular thumbnails? --Lord Belbury (talk) 15:56, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * IP seems uninterested in discussing this so I've restored the edit they've reverted, in line with Multiple image and WP:GALLERY. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:37, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I think the article is perfectly fine Lord. The images seem perfectly lined up and represented. I feel the image correction box should be removed because the images do not need fixing or moving around. Take a look at similar articles like Culture of Russia, for example, where they have excessive images and galleries. Culture of England seems far better presented than other culture articles.


 * Perhaps one area which could be improved is the theater section; either the Queen Elizabeth or gallery could be removed. I do think that section is the only area of improvement needed. Eng3rtd (talk) 11:35, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The problem isn't that the images aren't lined up or represented, it's that Multiple image says Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text and that we should only use fixed-px images like this "with very good reason" (emphasis in original). This is a long article, so there's plenty of space, and as you say, some images could just be removed. I don't think that's even Queen Elizabeth in the picture, it seems to be just a generic illustration of period costume (and not even theatrical costume). --Lord Belbury (talk) 11:50, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree regarding the Queen Elizabeth I picture, Lord. I could find a better image to place there and remove the gallery, if that's okay with you? A simple image showcasing everything English drama & theater represents. I don't think there is any need for the gallery. The Queen Elizabeth I picture seems randomly added. Eng3rtd (talk) 12:06, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Please do! --Lord Belbury (talk) 12:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Lovely. I'll work on that and add a better suited image. May I ask what sections are you not happy with currently? I could try to improve them slowly. Eng3rtd (talk) 12:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I've made some changes. Removed two galleries; separated two images in the performing arts gallery. I've changed the main image for theatre. Going through the article you were indeed correct; too much galleries. Hope it's a welcome change. If not I'll take notes and improve with immediate effect. Eng3rtd (talk) 14:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

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Lead changes
My main issue with the recent lead changes is the fact it goes too far into detail about one topic. We need to keep the lead diverse, with a brief summary of everything on the page. The problem with the past edits by user AbrahamTI is the fact the lead becomes more about immigration than the culture of England itself. I do agree that it should have some notes on the lead page, which it currently does. It's fine currently because it doesn't take away focus from the other aspects of the page.

When I tried to talk with user AbrahamTI about this, he blanked his talk page, which results in an edit war. I think the current lead is perfect and has aspects of this user's changes, but nicely trimmed down to not be excessive.

109.156.3.29 (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that the lead is now well-balanced, and an improvement to the previous lead 188.30.161.143 (talk) 15:02, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. 109.156.3.29 (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)