Talk:Culture of Greece/Archive 1

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How much of the information on Greek Lit. and Greek Mythology should be replicated on this page? It seems that a lot of information (more regarding Mythos rather than the list that is the Greek Lit) is here. Estel 14:50, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * Essentially this page should summarise pages on each area of Greek culture – i.e. one or two paragraphs on each topic. Unfortunately, the subtopic articles may not be that extensive at present. Nevertheless, a hierarchial structure, with this page as the overall parent, should be the ambition. zoney &#09827; talk 15:10, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Compare also with other articles in Category:European culture (some of which are better-developed than others and all of which need some work). Culture of Ireland and Culture of Switzerland are fairly good. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 15:18, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cradle Question
Should it be the cradle of Western civilisation (rather than culture)? Filiocht 09:44, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

See article Cradle of Humanity. The term is also used in other articles: Greece, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Noricum --Rj 15:55, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * I am more used to "civilisation". Maurreen 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Fascinating article b.t.w. but I too think that "the cradle of Western civilisation" sounds more appropriate here. zoney &#09827; talk 17:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Religion
I greatly expanded the "Religion" section, which badly needed it. (I also deleted the gratuitous reference to the movie Troy, which absolutely didn't belong there.) I think I've presented a good summary of both ancient and modern Greek religions. What's missing is any reference to minority religions in modern Greece. Someone with more knowlege than I have on that subject is welcome to tackle it. McMullen 03:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Reference section needed
We all need to start adding references for our additions, please. Filiocht 08:44, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Added new pics and things
I am a patriotic Greek, but mybe there are errors in my new contributions, check through to see they are up to standard.

Any help?
I want to expand this article, I know my recent edits have pushed it out a lot but there is still a lot more to do. We are a proud people, let us band togethere and work together on this article.

Add a picture for dance?
The Greeks used dance as artistic inspiration alot, mainly for potter, perhaps it would be good to include a pic for the dancing section? I found a very beautiful picture of Byzantine Dance (a partially damaged fresco in a church) here as well, I have emailed the site proprietor to see whether the image is available for sharing.

Here is the pic:

http://www.annaswebart.com/culture/dancehistory/byzantio/byzfres.gif

http://www.annaswebart.com/culture/dancehistory/byzantio/byzantio.gif

It's a really nice pic, I'd love to be able to include it.

Hellenistic period
During the hellenistic period classical greek culture spread through from Egypt to India. This period was characterized by great achievements in the field of science and mathematics, so I think it should be mentioned, even though hellenistic culture was not restricted to Greece proper.

Merging with ancient greece
i think this article should be merged with Ancient Greece or Greece rossy 10:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism?
I don't really know much about Greece or its culture, but I'm interested to know why some recent edits made by an anonymous user were reverted as "vandalism". Edits made in good faith are never vandalism. If there's a dispute about any edits, remember to bring up discussion about it on the talk page, or on the talk page of the person who made the edit, preferably before reverting the changes. Jude (talk) 04:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * When a responsible editor with a 3000+ article watchlist detects vandalism and reverts it, it is common practice to look further down the User Contributions and see whether other contributions by an anonymous vandal detected in one instance aren't possibly also vandalisms: note this consistent pattern of vandalism. Since every other edit from User:86.138.0.221 is vandalism, including offensive vandalism on my Userpage (reverted), I'm surprised to hear that there is value somewhere in just this one series of edits. To be sure, after User:bookofjude (above) has gone carefully through all User:86.138.0.221's "contributions"—it shouldn't take more than half an hour— one trusts he will restore anything he considers an improvement, without further fuss. A little more attention given to repairing the work of vandals would be very welcome by the way. Looking through the edit history of Culture of Greece I note that User:bookofjude has never contributed a single edit. May one wonder what motivates this apparent interest? --Wetman 05:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why should you? What does questioning another's appearance like that contribute to the matter at hand? Take an actual look through that edit for me and point out any specific bad faith attempts to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia (that is, vandalism). Sure it's a good idea to check a vandal's prior contributions to find unreverted vandalism, and we thank you for that, but that is no reason to blindly revert even good faith content edits for coming from the same IP. IP addresses are frequently reassigned among different users, also, making blind reverting them a particularly bad idea. If an edit looks like it may have been made in good faith based on its merits, despite the user's other contributions, it probably is. Why don't you talk with him if you disagree with the content of that edit. Also, as a side note to both of you: edit warring is bad. Always and forever. Dmcdevit·t 06:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I *was* responsible for vandalism on Wetman's page, for which I was banned for a period of time, however, when I returned I found he had reverted nearly every single one of my major edits. I reverted them back, this is what began the edit war, if you check my user contribution page you will see that I have been responsible for a great deal of good edits. Wetman has been warned about this before, and he continues to blindly ignore Administrators attempts to deal with him. He MUST be banned.

User:Elevated Stork
Could you please try and reword your part on Greek film to fit NPOV, tie it in with Greek 'Culture' somewhat (perhaps mention the controversy of recent Albanian immigration and percieved xenophobia) and put it under the already existing 'Cinema' subheading in 'The Arts' category?


 * This edit has been fixed, and the account mentioned above blocked. Jkelly 16:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Mass reverts need justification
None was provided, reverting back to last good version.

Why are you reverting all these edits ? None of them are vandalism, and they all improve the clarity and quality of the English, as well as the precision and focus of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.38.20 (talk • contribs)


 * Perhaps due to browser problems on your part, you are chopping off the lower half of the article in some of your edits. See here for instance.  That is just going to be reverted; the article ended in mid sentence.  Jkelly 16:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

just my two cents
I think that there should be at least 3 articles, culture of ancient, byzantine and modern Greece. I strongly disagree with the pov mentioned above that ancient Greece is irrelevant with the Byzantine and the modern, I try to study the Greek culture of all these eras, and anyone who does so, can see and understand the continuity of the Greek civilization. To get back on topic, we should either try to expand this article to cover these 3 eras (or more) or we could rename it as Culture of Ancient Greece, or something similar - expand the seperate article and have here a summary of that era (and introduction for byzantine and modern era) and a link to the main article. MATIA 17:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

After reading this article a little more, I'm guessing that it shouldn't be seperated, it already has introduction-summaries to other wikis, so perhaps we should add what is needed here, and see about extra wikis for specific eras later. MATIA 17:24, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Other articles, more or less, related: Greek language, Byzantine art, Byzantine architecture, Byzantine music, Category:Greek architecture, etc. Some of them are already present as links but perhaps we should add some summaries about them. MATIA 17:34, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The article does not talk about daily life in ancient and medieval Greece. Such things would belong to separate articles; I'd agree with you there.  However the article discusses major cultural developments from ancient and medieval Greece, such as the arts, humanities, law, and religion, that play a very integral role in contemporary Greece, and provided the context out of which modern Greek culture was born.  Why is this so hard to grasp? Skyduster 02:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

back to culture
Your POV is so so so so biased. Dont bring your biased twisted opinions into a online encyclopedia, although i do understand that wikipedia is an open online forum that anyone can edit it, for this reason it will never offer the complete truth we can only try and make it as near as possible but with views such as turks are "savages" and totally denying turkish influence on greece is fabricating history and culture.


 * No, I don't have to listen to you, I basically built this article from the ground up, and expanded it massively as well. As I have done with many other articles such as Byzantine Medicine among others.

Although what happened in Cyprus is regrettable and is a example of the evils that is committed by international disputes, the greek peoples were abused and were the victims of the most horrific crimes, what ever happened it can not reflect the general population of turky. Im sure if i were to look back on greek history i would find similar acts of atrocities.


 * Of course it reflects on the population of Turkey - Why don't you go to Constantinople and see the pathetic flag waving and mindless nationalism the Turks engage in? They complain about the Greeks treatment of Muslims in Thrace, as mentioned (even when their mosques are state funded), but how many of the 300,000 Greeks in Constantinople in 1955 remain there today? Which country has been persecuting which minority when the Muslims of Thrace remain, but the Greeks of Constantinople were drive out in yet another shameful chapter of Turkish barbaric History.

But back to turkish influence, especially during the ottoman era, the turks had a huge sophisticated culture that was influenced by Greece. The very fact that they employed greeks such as Christodoulos and Mimar Sinan as architects show how adaptable and open the turks were. They incorporated other forign peoples to build a richer country, i say a country willing to adopt or incorporate other outside talents is a marvolouse thing that can only enrich a country. Its thanks to the greeks did the Ottomans developed a style of art and architecture that was a synthesis of the Islamic Turkish art and classical world and Byzantine.


 * No, 'The Turks' did not have a 'huge sophisticated culture' - The Turks appropriated either Arab or Greek culture where they saw fit, and still do today. I have explained this to you before. And the fact they employed Greeks for artistic purposes proves nothing, every nation commissioned artists from different ethnic backgrounds in the Medieval Age and even in the Classical Age, this is nothing new, it is simply an acknowledgement of the superior artistic and architectural (not to mention engineering and other disciplines) skills of the Greeks. The phrase 'Islamic Civilization' in itself is an oxymoron, one can either be Islamic or be Civilized, the two are polar opposites.

Im not sure if the turks concreted the tiles of the Hagia Sophia but it would not have been as worse as what the Venetians did during the 4th crusade. Plus the turks are famous for their tiles as well.


 * No one is excusing the Venetians, but I doubt you will find many Catholics who would justify the fourth crusade today, on the contrary, those I have met have been very apologetic about it. The Turks on the other hand, celebrate their savagery. Celebrating the massacre of the Greeks of Asia Minor as their 'freedom day'. Or holding banners at football matches claiming '1453 we took your virginity' (The Turks have a proud History of raping nuns). Turks are deliberately provokative and are ultra-nationalist bigots who must justify their existence as a civilized people or face modern social darwinism head on.

ironic to think that you hate the very people in Constantinople because they are turkish, but then you pride your self on Byzantine roots which its capital was at constantinople. Im sure the people there would have byzantine roots, they didnt just all genetically change after it fell in 1453. If you say byzantines are greeks than i must say that the majority of turkish people would have greek lineages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.255.133 (talk • contribs)


 * No, it's not ironic at all, The Turks make no claim to Byzantine Civilization, and rightfully so, not only would it be patently hypocritical (given their celebration of 1453 among other things), but it would be patently absurd historically speaking, as the Hellenism, in both language and religion, was integral to Byzantine Civilization, they have no claim over it other than the monuments of Byzantine Civilization that exist within the geographical expression known as 'Turkey'.


 * Please see Verifiability. If you believe this article can be improved upon by adding more about Turkish influence, please make sure to use reliable sources.  Jkelly 16:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Jkelly - Make a sub-heading in the Turkish Culture article highlighting the Turkish appropriation of Byzantine Greek cuisine (and Assyrian too, funnily enough), Byzantine Greek Dance, Byzantine Greek Sport, Byzantine Greek Architecture, Byzantine Greek Art, Byzantine Greek Literature and so on, and THEN I will add a sub-heading concerning Turkish influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.0.148 (talk • contribs)


 * Please try to avoid interwoven replies. It makes it difficult to be clear on who is typing what.  Jkelly 22:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

after reading ottoman culture i was a little horrified at the barbaricness of their culture, i kinda feel sorry for the greeks now.... i never knew that the ottoman empire was a phedophiliac homosexual empire..... did they really employ greek boys as prostitutes in the ottoman empire?!?! see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6%C3%A7eks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.255.133 (talk • contribs)


 * Yes - After Mehmet had taken Constantinople, he sent for Duke Notaras' nephew who was rumoured to be very handsome (he was around 12 years old at the time), he proceeded to kill every member of his family in front of him and then took him to his bedchamber's and raped him.

Skyduster 10:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This article is well-built, but let's refrain from using it as a political forum to condemn Turkey's past wrongs. That doesn't accomplish anything.  It's perfectly okay to refer to events where the Ottoman Empire disadvantaged Greece by invading and occupying it, but let's keep it subjective as much as possible.
 * "but how many of the 300,000 Greeks in Constantinople in 1955 remain there today? Which country has been persecuting which minority when the Muslims of Thrace remain, but the Greeks of Constantinople were drive out in yet another shameful chapter of Turkish barbaric History." Actually, modern-day Turkish historians acknowledge this, and regret that it had happened. True, the Turkish state itself hasn't addressed this historical event properly.  Interestingly, a Greek news magazine called Oi Fakeloi on the Mega Network uncovered -in a 2006 special- that the tension in 1955 Istanbul between the Greek community and the Turkish majority (and the Turkish state) was covertly ignited by British secret services for alterior motives.  It was an interesting special; Greek journalists went to Istanbul and were interviewing prominent Turkish historians.  And the special also showed declassified British documents.
 * "ironic to think that you hate the very people in Constantinople because they are turkish, but then you pride your self on Byzantine roots which its capital was at constantinople. Im sure the people there would have byzantine roots, they didnt just all genetically change after it fell in 1453. If you say byzantines are greeks than i must say that the majority of turkish people would have greek lineages" That's unlikely. During Ottoman occupation, Greek and Turkish communities lived side by side -for centuries- as two distinct communties, probably with minimal intermarriage.  Demographics could have easily changed in Constantinople/Istanbul as one ethnic group gradually left the city over time -both forcefully and voluntarily- and another moved in. (In contrast to, say, Mexico where the Amerindian and European populations merged creating a distinct Mexican Mestizo ethnic group).  Demographic change of this type ("replacement") is actually very common in world history and continues to this day.  The level of intermarriage may never be known, but I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that it was at significant levels, given the two communities' different religions and cultures, and the fact that two distinct societies remained for centuries, up until the Greek Revolution.  And secondly, the Byzantine Empire was dominated/run by the Greeks.  We don't know whether or not non-ethnic Greeks within the Empire considered themselves "Byzantine," and I don't even think the Byzantines called themeslves such.  What we do know is that it was a Greek-speaking Empire, and it ruled over many non-Greek-speaking areas, off and on, such as Italy, Bulgaria, Palestine, and so on.  Please stop using ethnic lineage as a way to define who's Greek and who's not.  Please don't use this cr*p.  We don't do that for the USA (Pilgrim-descended Anglo-Saxons and slave-descended African-Americans are all considered "Americans")...so why should we do it for Greece?  Greek-sepaking culture/civilization is a continuous culture, which -yes- welcomed newcomers over the centuries who assimilated into Greek society, and evolved over time.  Just like every other country in the world from Mexico to Britain to Japan. (Unless you are a society that's been isolated for thousands of years, with no contact with the outside world).  Thus -yes- Byzantine and Greek are synonymous during the Middle Ages, in the same way that Holy Roman Empire and Germans are synonymous.
 * "The Turks on the other hand, celebrate their savagery. Celebrating the massacre of the Greeks of Asia Minor as their 'freedom day'." The episode you are talking about was in 1919-1920 when, in all fairness, Greece did invade territory internationally recognized as Turkish. This occurred during the final years of the Ottoman Empire, and started as a campaign to annex Greek-speaking areas on the west coast of Turkey, but the campaign went too far, and attempted to dig far too deep into Anatolia, ethnic Turkish heartland.  This led to the rise in Turkish nationalism which led to the creation of the modern Turkish state (similar to the creation of the modern Greek state 100 years prior).  In all fairness, the Turks were only defending their own sovereignty on land slated (out of the outdated Ottoman Empire) for a state of their own.  The Turks see it as their own war of independence.  Dude, I'm a huge grecophile/philhellene, but let's be real here.  Let's just accept that -yes- there have been border disputes 100 years ago, they have long since been settled, populations have been exchanged, and respective peoples now have their own states.  Jeez.
 * "Or holding banners at football matches claiming '1453 we took your virginity'." There were also many Turks holding signs that said "Greeks and Turks we can work together." And there were many Greek fans in the stadium throwing bottles and acting stupid.
 * "The Turks appropriated either Arab or Greek culture where they saw fit, and still do today." That is definitely a valid point, that the Ottoman Turks drew in influences from other cultures such as the Byzantines and Arabs. Many Middle Eastern culinary and musical influences came to post-medieval Greece through Turkey.  In any case, this is a valid point to include in an article about Greek culture.  Greek culture/civilization has left a major impact on other societies, but has also absorbed/embraced foreign influences as well.  Cosmopolitan cultures not only exert influence, they also draw influences.  It would be impossible for a sophisticated and cosmopolitan civilization such as the Greeks, so heavily involved in trade and having interacted with many foreign cultures both voluntarily and forcefully, to not have taken in any foreign influences.
 * And PLEASE sign your comments!

Fair use rationale for Image:Zorba DVD cover.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Greece = Ancient Greece?
The fact that modern Greece is a continuation of the ancient fractured city-states we now call "Greece" is somewhat mislead. The concept of such continuation is the foundation myth of modern Greece (the people needed a fusion post Ottomans) and has been perpetuated ever since - note the 2004 Olympics. Of course, the very fact that statues and buildings of Ancient Greece remain in Greece will have an impact on the modern countries' culture, but to a limited extent. However, I think it is dangerous, and factually incorrect, to consider the Culture of Ancient Greece to be a part of the Culture of Greece. The two should be seperated to a logical extent. --[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak Quill]] 21:44, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This should be Culture of Ancient Greece, and then we need a new Culture of Greece article. Falphin 18:03, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * There should probably be two separate pages. Greece(Hellenic Republic) =/= ancient Greek/Hellenistic world ~ Dpr 07:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He ever shall remain a bitter Englishman :)

As a Greek I can tell you that we do indeed feel our Ancient and Byzantine culture profoundly affects our idea of national identity much like morris-dancing and bad food does with yours :)


 * Yes.
 * The real myth here is Anglo-Saxons (Brits, Americans, et al.) considering themselves the inheritors of Greco-Roman civilization; a concept that is completely absurd to modern-day southern Europeans. Ancient Greece and modern Greece are not two completely separate cultures.  Rather, they are two different periods in the history of ever-evolving Greek civilization.  Like all civilizations, it has evolved over time and embraced foreign influences (in addition to exerting massive influences).  More importantly, the arts and humanities of ancient Greece are not only highly revered by modern Greeks and considered a strong part of the national identity, but also play a major role in modern Greek culture.  For example, theater companies in contemporary Greece frequently stage ancient Greek plays (and they stage them outdoors, in ancient theaters, during the warmer months); and ancient Greek arts, literature, philosophy, and mythology are a major part of school curriculums.  And, of course, medieval Greek culture shaped the Orthodox Christian faith of today's Greeks.  Modern Greek culture was born out of this context.  Therefore, to answer your question, -yes- a mention of ancient and medieval Greek culture does have its rightful place in this article.  Skyduster 02:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

So, modern Greeks feel a sense of connection to ancient Greek culture. Is this feeling nationalist myth-making, or does it have a factual basis? I take no position either way. The article, however, assumes that the connection is real, and its structure (Literature: Ancient, Byzantine, Modern; Religion: Ancient, Byzantine, Modern; etc.) reinforces that connection. Which, I assume, is intended to promote that POV.

That assertion, if true, needs to be made explicitly and supported, not just implied by structure. It would have to be shown, for example, that Greek Orthodoxy is influenced by ancient paganism--any more than other forms of Christianity; or, that ancient Greek literature and culture remained important in Greece, and more so than elsewhere, throughout the centuries of Roman and Byzantine [not to mention Ottoman] rule, rather than being revived under the influence of 19th century nationalism. If this were shown, an article on modern Greek culture could legitimately explore links to ancient Greek culture, and vice-versa.

But none of this addresses the question at hand, namely: is a description of ancient Greek culture better or worse for being chopped and pureed into an account of Greek culture through the ages? That's the only relevant question, and the answer is, no.DaveDaytona (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * DaveDaytona,


 * Stonehenge is mentioned in the article "culture of the United Kingdom", despite the far weaker connection between the modern-day United Kingdom with the ancient civilization that built Stonehenge. Your proposition for this entry about the Culture of Greece advances a reduced concept of "culture" (ie contemporary popular culture) and is both incoherent with other national culture entries in Wikipedia and analogous to an American demoted view of what "Greek culture" entails.  This ethnocentric subtext to your analytical assumptions contrasts with your assertion that you "take no position either way".


 * Despite vernacular usage, the definition of "culture" can encompass both contemporary popular culture and cultural legacy referring to high culture (for example centuries-old arts and literature) that is highly regarded within the contemporary inheritor civilization. From glancing at other national culture or regional culture entries on Wikipedia, it is clear that both of these understandings of "culture" are the convention.  While it is true cultural legacy can be used -and some cultural treasures even revived- for the purposes of a national narrative in any modern sate, I don't see why this should matter if the Greek people feel that these legacies are a part of their culture and national identity...who are you to challenge that?  The very fact that these cultural legacies are mentioned in the same entry with the modern inheritor culture is obviously enough to establish the fact that all Modern Greeks over the age of 10 have read the Odyssey and consider it a part of their national culture, much as modern Britons consider Shakespeare a part of theirs...unless you're suggesting that the British culture entry should only discuss David Beckham and the Spice Girls.


 * I just don't see why this specific article should be approached in a vastly dissimilar manner from the British article, to state one example, or the entry on "Western Culture". I do partly agree, however, that this article actually underplays the heavy role that these cultural legacies play within the contemporary inheritor culture (education, law, literature, etc) and not necessarily in a nationalist-revivalist sort of way, as you haphazardly assume.


 * The necessity to "prove" cultural continuity or the significance of classical cultural legacies within the contemporary inheritor culture is a bit of campy demand on your part, as it implies a very limited definition of "culture" as comprising only modern-day practices and popular customs (or -reduced even further- recently faded practices and popular customs) and even directly challenges the widely-accepted notion of cultural foundation. While no one would challenge, for example, Britain's or America's foundation as Anglo-Saxon (despite very little commonality with ancient Anglo-Saxon society), or even "European" or "Western", it has become fashionable to challenge Modern Greece's classical foundation, and that's a bit of a double-standard which you seem perfectly okay with.


 * This article in no way suggests that popular customs of the ancient and medieval periods persist to this day. The article only mentions the cultural legacies of past eras (the high culture: major works of art, literature, and thought) and -therefore- the civilizational inheritence (the cultural foundation or background) of the respective inheritor culture.  An article written specifically on Ancient Greek culture would touch on customs and practices of that period, whereas the cultural legacies of that period can legitimately be included in an entry about Modern Greek culture, ragarding the latter's foundation.  The three archperiods in the country's history (ancient-medieval-modern) are clearly denoted in the article, thus -contrary to your suggestion- there is absolutely no confusion about chronological order, nor is there any suggestion that temporary customs from previous eras have persisted.


 * There is no more a need to prove continuity of Greek high culture in the strictest sense, than there is to prove that Greco-Roman cultural legacies are the basis modern-day "Western Civilization", despite the fact that several "Western" cultures (such as the Anglosphere) had absolutely no connection with Greco-Roman Civilization at all until Anglo-Saxon interest in Greece and Rome sparked in the 18th century, yet the supposed "Greco-Roman foundation" has become a major piety in contemporary America.


 * Thanks,
 * Skyduster (talk) 19:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

O rly?
"Greeks on the whole have a strong Democratic tradition, harkening back to the days of Classical Athens at it's zenith. Greeks also tend to be strongly pro-European when compared with many of their Western European neighbours."

I'm not sure if we can really say that Greece has a strong democratic tradition. - FrancisTyers · 12:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Why? I have made this article very non-bias, pointed out that it is true Greeks are somewhat suscipicious of foreigners. What do you propose instead?

The attitudes section seems a bit biased too...definitely written by a greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.186.102.187 (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's all subjective. Greece has had a strong democratic tradition since 1974.  Not sure what this has to do with culture, but it's no less democratic than, say, the United States which also makes "strong democratic tradition" claims but did not allow African-Americans to vote as late as the 1960s. Skyduster (talk) 23:33, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Dress?
Are you sure the Greece Dress is not influenced by Turkey? i dont have any evidence to back up my argument but the dress sure looks turkish especially the cap. Perhaps turkish influence during their 370 year rule of Greece not only influenced their language but also dress i would think


 * Not really, it's origins are debated, but debated in a Balkan sense, not a Greek-Turkish sense, I also find it funny that people such as you do not see the idiocy of talking of 'Greek cultural appropriation', and then turning around and ignoring the fact the entire Ottoman Culture is simply appropriation of Byzantine culture, from Government to Architecture. Also, I took the time to glance over your edits, you seem to have a decidedly Anti-Greek POV. Tone it down or it will be reported.

......... wow, if you take alook at my contributions you will find that i dont have a anti greek POV. i take an interest Greece as it is my nationality (along with spanish, by asking what country of origin the byzantine empire really was(as its capital was at Constantinople but they thought them selves to be greek) or who were the origonal inhabitants of greece i bring forward quetions that are hottly debatable. if you believe that is anti Greek i would be inder the impression you would not fit well for wikipedian disscussions as things should be questioned not oppressed.

You might also notice i have not edited any greek pages, i always discuss them in the discussion threads first! (mind i still have not edited any greek pages!


 * The Hellenic Republic did not come before the Byzantine Empire, ergo, speaking of a 'country of origin' in a modern nation state sense is ridiculous, besides, the Greekness of the Empire even from the early 6th century has been debated ENDLESSLY by scholars (historical scholars rather than contemporary as the conclusions of it's Greekness has been solidified over time) and wikipedians alike, we ALWAYS arrive at the same conclusion. The Empire can be considered a continuation of the Hellenistic East of the Roman Empire. I myself would prefer to see it called the 'Greek Roman Empire' - as it is more explanatory and accurate, however, 'Byzantine' is the name Wolf called it and hence this neologism remains.


 * Please take a look at any element of 'Turkish' culture, from cuisine to dance, and you can't fail to see it's Greek origins.

This Greek culture of the Byzantine Empire though still does not tell us which country should claim it as theirs. Since the Byzantines liked to think they were greek and were influenced by Greek culture this may be the affect that there was really only one flourishing empire in the east befor them - that of the greeks, so there wasnt anything else they could really base them selves on. As with the turkish culture having greek origins, maybe, perhaps the two countries have just influenced eachother to the point where all things are mixed because i certainly can see turkish culture in greek culture as well. Its almost like they are one country just diffrent regions


 * What do you think happened to the pre-Christian Greeks after Greece became the Byzantine Empire? Did they disappear?  Their descendants were the Greek-speaking Christians who ran and dominated the Byzantine Empire.  There is no dispute about this among historians; it's only something that's questioned by amateur historians like yourself.  Regarding "Its almost like they [Greece and Turkey] are one country just diffrent regions"...Greece and Turkey are about as similar as Spain is to Morocco.  The two countries share a number of superficial culinary and musical commonalities due to centuries of interaction, but a Greek person would experience far more culture shock in Turkey than in Sweden.  Both are wonderful cultures, BTW.  But they have little in common, unless you're actively looking for commonalities that would reinforce your preconceived view, which is clearly what you did during your trip to Greece. Skyduster (talk) 23:48, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Wherever 'Turkish' Culture has influenced Greek it can always be considered a non-sequitur because 'Turkish' Ottoman Culture was effectively an appropriation of Byzantine Culture. From cuisine to dance and architecture to sport - Turkish culture is nothing more than an appropriation of Greek Byzantine Culture, this is why you see two overlapping cultures. As for Turks themselves they are nothing more than barbarians, EVERY turk on wikipedia is an ultra-nationalist kemalist ("Another Whiskey for Kemal, Merci!"), who is militiristic and racist. This is what the Turks are. There is no serious debate as to the Greekness of Byzantium - Just the same way as the Holy Roman Empire is considered part of GERMAN history.


 * I would die for Greece and Cyprus, I hope that I am called upon one day to claim vengeance for what happened to my family in Cyprus. I would dearly love to see the tears of Turkish mothers just the same way as they inflicted hurt upon Greeks for so long. "I am born a Greek, I shall die a Greek."

........thats kinda racist making such a judgment on turks.... i would of hoped there to be a reconciliation between the two countries as there are so many shared beliefs and customs. But i do believe there are political tensions between the two countries i dont believe that all turks are barbarians nor have they ever been, the ottomans were artisticaly enlightenened and Greece was a part of the ottoman empire which should be a prosperous time in greek history should it not? (as they shared ottoman culture etc)


 * Let me emphasize again, Greece's culture is a Christian continuation of Byzantine Culture which in itself was a successor to Hellensistic Culture which in itself was a successor to Classical Greek Culture, which in itself was a successor to Prehistorical Greek Cultures (The Minoans for example). The Ottomans were not 'sharing' their culture with anyone, the Greeks are the rightful heirs to Byzantium, language and religion - as well as culture itself proves this utterly. And if the Ottomans were so artistically enlightened why did the concrete over the most beautiful floor of mosaics in the world in the Agia Sophia? Why did they destroy so much Christian art? Why did they hire Western Artists to paint portraits and Greek and then Western Architects (from the late 18th century onwards) to design their buildings? You ask me to 'reconcile' with these savages?


 * I'll give you a good reason why not. Thirty two years ago my Uncle, then only 19, was captured by the Turks, made to stand up against a wall and shot dead in Cyprus. To this day the Turks occupy my family home in Cyprus, Kyrenia, they desecrated the graveyards, destroyed the churches or converted them into Mosques, urinated on the holy icons within the churches and looted them as well. They raped women to the point where the Hospitals in the free areas of Cyprus could not cope with all the abortion demands. I will NEVER forgive them, mark my words, I will NEVER forgive the turks for what they did. Not today, not tomorrow, not in 10 years, nor till my dying breath.


 * Greek and Turkish cultures: both wonderful, rich cultures, but very little in common
 * I disagree with the accusations generalizing Turks as "racist," "nationalist," etc. There have been some anonymous people attacking Greece articles, but we don't know what their nationality is (as they don't identify themselves), nor do they represent all Turks.  To make this generalization is absurd.  However, the assumption that Greece and Turkey are "almost like they are one country just diffrent regions" is far from the truth.  There are some similarities that stand out to visitors, but these similarities are almost entirely limited to music and cuisine.  (And yes, Greek cuisine and music have absorbed Turkish influences).  Behind these superficial similarities, the two cultures are vastly different from each other. "There are so many shared beliefs and customs [between the two countries]." One is Muslim the other is Christian.  There are no shared beliefs, and certainly no shared customs.  Both are wonderful, rich cultures, and are slowly starting to engage with each other and make peace (which is awesome); but the cultures have little in common.  As Rick Steeves says in one of his episodes where he's taking a ferry from Greece to Turkey, "You'll encounter a much larger cultural difference travelling from Greece to Turkey than you will from the United States to Greece."  This should be a no-brainer.  Except for food and traditional music, Greece has much more in common with the United States than with Turkey; from historical Christian roots and Christmas/Easter holidays, to latter-day rebellious youth culture and liberal attitudes to sex: Turkish women wear headscarves; Greek women wear halter tops.  Greeks have wine at the dinner table; Turks -as Muslims- are not supposed to drink alcohol (meanwhile, Greeks use wine in Communion).  The list can go on and on.  Greece and Turkey are like Spain and Morocco.  The Moorish occupation has left behind strong architectural and musical influences in Spanish culture; that doesn't mean that Spain and Morocco have anything else in common.  Unfortunately, Anglo-Saxons tend to group all cultures foreign to them into one big category.  Cheers. Skyduster 02:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

old comments
Interesting the page states Ottoman Empire had an influence on Greek culture. I'll say, how about it nearly destroyed it? Maybe it's me, but this page seems to be "friendly" toward the conquerors. I wonder why? Greece culture declined during the occupation. Thrived afterwards. Am I mistaken?


 * Greece's political and economic importance declined during the Ottoman occupation (generally speaking, as not all of Greece was occupied by the Ottomans at all times), but how exactly do cultures decline? If we're talking about Greek national identity, then obviously it survived the Ottoman period perfectly intact.  As for Ottoman influences, yes there are a number of Ottoman influences but mostly limited to culinary and musical, not social or religious.  So, yes, there are Ottoman influences in Greek culture, specifically in music and cuisine (and also in architecture in some parts of the country) Skyduster (talk) 23:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I also want to say that I will be editing the opening comment of this article:


 * The culture of Greece has evolved over thousands of years, beginning in Mycenaean Greece, continuing most notably into Classical Greece, through the influence of the Roman Empire and its Greek Eastern successor the Byzantine Empire. The Ottoman Empire significantly influenced modern Greek culture, but historians credit the Greek war of independence with revitalising Greece and giving birth to a single entity of its multi-faceted culture.

The claim that "The Ottoman Empire significantly influenced modern Greek culture" is overstated. Skyduster (talk) 00:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I changed it to the following which is a much more accurate brief description of the country's history:


 * The culture of Greece has evolved over thousands of years, beginning in Mycenaean Greece, continuing most notably into Classical Greece, through the influence of the Roman Empire and its Greek Eastern successor the Byzantine Empire. Foreign occupiers such as the Ottoman Empire, medieval Latin kingdoms, the Venetian Republic, Genoese Republic, and British Empire have also left their influence modern Greek culture, but historians credit the Greek war of independence with revitalising Greece and giving birth to a single entity of its multi-faceted culture.

Thanks Skyduster (talk) 00:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Minoan are not proved to be related with Greeks.
Minoans are not proved to be related with Greeks, Mycenaeans and so on, at all. Their language (if the Phaistos disk is real) is not deciphered and the hieroglyph writing is a mutual heritage from Egypt. Their language is probably related with Luwian languages following the migration of people from Anatolia, who settled then in Crete. So fa,r no one can prove that Mycenaeans, and Greeks, and Minoans are linguistically or ethically linked. Mycenaeans though have been influenced also in art by the earlier neighbors of the Aegean sea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eschatos1 (talk • contribs) 18:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I 'd like avoid be  sarcastic and  too subjective on this but being  Greek and proud of  my folk's history and heritage i can't avoid but wonder. Mycenaeans and Minoans not proven to be Greek? Ok lets approach this with reason: Homer is widely aknowledged as the greatest  Greek  epic poet and the history  of Iliad talks about a campaign of  mainland Greeks (Mycaeneans mostly but   also mentions  one king from Minoan Crete of that era) against some  also clearly Greek civilisation (as evidenced by culture  language and religion similarities) in Troy area in Asia Minor. So either they are Greek or they are not but if they are not then  maybe  you want to also  doubt Homer being Greek? Actualy what they were if you must know is what is among historians called "proto-Greeks"and as article explains  about Phoenician alphabet  adoption  past that era i think  your  request is redundant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.243.190 (talk) 16:34, 2 June 2012 (UTC)