Talk:Culture of North Macedonia

Untitled
I wonder how the user who wrote that Cyrillic(Glagolithic) alphabet is a product of Macedonian culture doesn't feel ... at least uncomfortable. I would have removed this part but I do not feel the need the guys from Macedonia feel to prove that the culture of the whole Balkans is their culture. NaibStilgar

The article is definitely NOT about culture of that republic. Therefore it should not be labeled as such. 217.140.193.123 13:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Distinctions
Anyone feeling uncomfortable with the contents of this article re eras (or ethnicities), are, imo, entitled to write portions that distinguish what has been ancient Macedonian culture and/or adjacent Greek Macedonian culture, what has been Slavonic Macedonian culture, etc. I recommend to keep it distinguished by era after era, and not going to fight what is which ethnic group's contribution. (Though I know that almost everyrthing can be battled here on basis of ethnicity). Arrigo 16:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this article refers to the culture of the country FYROM only. I trust you do not disagree with this.  Therefore the  article's proper title should be "Culture of (the) Republic of Macedonia".  Until such time as someone writes either a comprehensive article spanning the entire geographical region of Macedonia culturewise, and/or  "portions that distinguish what has been ancient Macedonian culture and/or adjacent Greek Macedonian culture, what has been Slavonic Macedonian culture, etc" or "distinguished by era after era" (all of which are reasonable proposals), the article called "Culture of Macedonia" should be left blank.
 * I, for one, do not claim any bit of this article as a contribution of this or another ethnic group. Indeed I do not wish to alter the content of this article in any way.  I merely want it attributed to the country it refers to, and its cultural heritage; not to the whole geographical region, of which this country is but a part. Chronographos 17:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This article is definitely not about any geographical regions, it's only about FYROM and medieval Bulgaria. The title needs to be moved back to 'culture of republic of Macedonia' and all the references to 'Macedonians' need to be replaced by Macedonian Slavs. Also the article mainly talks about the culture of medieval Bulgaria or whatever Slavic population inhabited the region which did not recognise themselves as Macedonian (despite what current FYROM nationalists want to believe). Miskin 11:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh yeah, one more detail. Despite what you people are told in school, there's no historical reference of a Slavic ethnic group calling itself "Macedonian" prior to the 20th century (and I challenge anyone to prove me the opposite). Also, prior to the Balkan Wars, the region of Macedonia was very different from the one described in the introduction of the article. For those reasons I think that the title "culture of RoM" is still misleading, as 80% of the article refers to medieval Slavic culture, in a region which at the time was not considered by anybody as "Macedonia" and its Slavic inhabitants recognised themselves as Bulgarian or Serbian. This circus of an article will be cleaned up for being so disgustingly POV and unscientific, so unless any of its editors have any counter arguments to what I've said, I don't see a reason to wait any longer. The question that remains is whether move back to "culture of RoM" and remove all references to Macedonian Slavs prior to the Balkan Wars or just edit the currect article and add neutral information. In my opinion it's retarded to have an article about the culture of a multiethnic region of varying borders, so I vote to either ditch the currect article for good, or move it to "Culture of (FY)RoM" and remove the POV rubbish. One thing is certain, that in its currect state this piece of trash is an embarrassment to wikipedia and the NPOV policy. Miskin 12:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting...

1."there's no historical reference of a Slavic ethnic group calling itself "Macedonian" prior to the 20th century" Which is why I reverted your vandalism to this page. You just admitted to adding info you knew to be incorrect. 2. "disgustingly POV and unscientific" All of this info came from official government websites. 3. "move back to "culture of RoM"" This has already been discussed. This is incorrect. You already previously stated in your argument that this does not apply to the RoM. 4. "POV rubbish" How is this article pov? freestylefrappe 17:53, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * 1. Something needs to be in the article distinguishing the culture of modern Slavic "Macedonians" from those non-Slavic Macedonians of ancient times; it also needs to be noted that the use of "Macedonian" as a descriptor of Slavic inhabitants of the area is anachronistic when used to refer to those living pre-20th century.
 * 2. There's nothing preventing official government websites from being POV.
 * 3. There is today existing a Republic of Macedonia, and the area encompassed by that country does have a long history; therefore, this article needs to make clear it's only referring to the history of the area of the modern RoM, not that of all the ancient Macedonians, or the medieval Bulgarians.
 * 4. Because it follows the official modern RoMacedonian line of anachronistically referring to all previous inhabits and culture of that area as "Macedonian", in essence appropriating a history from other nations and giving it to an ethnic group that only became distinct within the past century. YBeayf 03:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Culture is not based on nation states. Religion, ethnicity, music, etc. are factors that form a culture. The idea that Slavic Macedonians just "popped" out of nowhere in the 20th century is ridiculous. If the name of the page is changed from Culture of Macedonia - which currently incorrectly redirects to Macedonia thanks to Theathenae - then it should be Slavic Macedonian Culture. freestylefrappe 22:23, September 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * Two things:

Freestylefrappe said: The idea that Slavic Macedonians just "popped" out of nowhere in the 20th century is ridiculous. Fair enough to have a POV, the problem is when you try to pass it as common knowledge. So I'm not going to spend my time to disprove what you just said by explaining how and why the Slavomacedonian ethnic group did popup in the 20th century, instead I'm just going to ask you to provide some reliable sources which back up your claims by verifying the existence of the Slavomacedonian group prior to the 20th century. As you have probably noticed yourself there are no sources in the bottom of the article, and something tells me that did not just forgot to put them there... If you fail to provide any valid sources, then you realize that I'll have no choice but to edit the article in order to make it reflect historical reality. Miskin 13:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Why the hell does this article claim that "Slavic Macedonian Culture" is ancient while the existence of the Slavs did't even exist in antiquity? In case the author missed some history chapters, the Slavs migrated to the region during the Middle Ages. And besides that, why on earth does this article still pretend that there has been a distinct "Slav Macedonian" ethnic group since the middle-ages, since everybody knows that this nationality is a product of the 20th century?
 * 1) Oh and secondly, why did you just edit my Discussion page in order to hide the pathetic complaints of a sad Slav Macedonian nationalist? Is this another coincidence, or were you protecting me from being insulted..? Miskin 13:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * You're actually gonna try and pick a fight because I reverted vandalism to your page? Do you realize how empty that argument is? Once again I warn you not to vandalize this page or I will report your actions to administration. freestylefrappe 21:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I beg you do so. In the meantime I'm reverting since you have yet failed to provide any valid evidence of your claims. Miskin 18:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Discision
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Ryan Norton T 02:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that, according to "Macedonians (ethnic group)" article, this one should be renamed as "Macedonian culture". The culture of the other parts of the region of Macedonia is described in the country's culture the certain part is in anyway. Just to remind, "Slavic" is NOT according the NPOV policy. Bomac 19:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Moving the page
I'll move this page to "Macedonian culture (Slavic)". It is more "representative". Bomac 10:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * What I was trying to say when moved the page back was that there was a decision not to move it. Back then it was "Slavic Macedonian culture" and/or similar and it changed to its current location when User:Bomac used brackets, as seen above. --157.228.x.x (talk) 07:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Distinction
In my humble opinion this article should refer to the "Culture of (FY)RoM" or the "Slavic Macedonian Culture" or the "Northern Macedonian Culture". In any case I believe there should be a clear distinction from a general "Macedonian Culture". Thank you.

Irrelevant link
In the "See also" section I noiced a link to the article Cultural bias. Not only is it inappropriate and in no way related to anything, but it's also a bit insulting. Therefore I removed it. --B. Jankuloski 01:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm
"Prior to the Renaissance, while the rest of Europe was still in the middle ages, Byzantine builders and artists were embodying iconography and creating frescoes as early as the 11th century."

This is retarded. First, it is dubious whether Byzantine culture in the region and the Slavic population should be regarded as one and the same. Second, if the criterion for having left the Middle Ages is painting icons and frescoes, I'll eat my freaking hat. Third, it's not important enough for the lead. And BTW, "Middle Ages" is written in capitals. I'm removing the sentence. --91.148.159.4 22:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Merged and redirected: Art of the Republic of Macedonia
The above's content was just a duplication of the relevant section within this article. Therefore I've merged (i.e. deleted the content) and redirected it here. We can always separate them in two entities when sufficient material surfaces and expand accordingly. Please, share your thoughts or objections. --157.228.118.212 (talk) 02:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge: Cinema of the Republic of Macedonia
Since the above page is "very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time" I think it" makes sense to merge it" here in a seperate section. We can always seperate them and expand when (or if) sufficient extra matterial emerges. --157.228.118.212 (talk) 03:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Any input, thoughts? --157.228.x.x (talk) 00:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be better if the current section is copied over, but the cinema of macedonia part be significantly expanded, are you willing to work on that? P m kocovski (talk) 10:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you mean a serious treatise, no, at least not for the foreseeable future as I dont have the sources for that. Merged and redirect it for the time being; if expanded then we can always split back. --157.228.x.x (talk) 20:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Architecture
The article defines Macedonian culture as "the culture of the South Slavic ethnic Macedonian population...", yet the Architecture section, for example, expands on 14th century Islamic mosques, archaeological remains from classical antiquity etc. Perhaps those items should/could be moved to Republic of Macedonia? 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean and I agree; that would be a sensible option for now. The article needs a revamp anyway. --157.228.x.x (talk) 20:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Macedonian names of Biblical origin
Half of those names are of Slavic origin. Who in the Bible is called Vladimir or Zlatan? I removed the "...of Biblical origin" due to this.

Macedonian culture (ethnic group)
I moved Macedonian culture (Slavic) to Macedonian culture (ethnic group) because of the following reasons:
 * 1) It follows the same consistency with other Macedonian related pages, such as Macedonians (ethnic group)
 * 2) Macedonian culture is not purely Slavic, as it is a mix of Byzantine, Slavic and Ottoman
 * 3) Macedonians don't identify as being an "ethnic Slavic", and I don't believe such an ethnic group exists in our present day. Mactruth (talk) 04:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

But you're saying the culture is an ethnic group, which doesn't make any sense. It's like calling the Macedonian script "Macedonian alphabet (ethnic group)". kwami (talk) 07:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How about "Ethnic Macedonian Culture"? Or even just plain "Macedonian Culture"? I don't see the point of "Macedonian Culture" redirecting hereBruka (talk) 09:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Per an injunction at Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2, "No Macedonia-related article, broadly defined, shall be moved/renamed until after the "Macedonia 2" case closes. If it does occur, any uninvolved administrator can expeditiously revert it. After the case closes, Macedonia-related moves/renames can occur as prescribed in the final decision." As such, no further page moves should be made until after the case is closed or without direct approval of the committee. As such, I have undone the move. Any further page moves will result in a block.
 * For the Committee, Tiptoety  talk 19:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I have moved it back to ...(Slavic). The disambiguator "(ethnic group)" just doesn't work linguistically. As Kwami rightly said above, having a noun in dismambiguation brackets implies that "Macedonian culture" actually is an ethnic group, which is just nonsensical. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * What is "Slavic culture"? --WavesSaid (talk) 02:05, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Surnames
It is often for non-Macedonians dealing with Macedonian subjects to see an issue regarding the surnames. For instance, why Ilija Najdoski surname is often written as Najdovski? (his son even had an article here as Dino Najdovski). A word about surname customs in the "Names" section would be great. FkpCascais (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Macedonian culture (Slavic). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080530095052/http://culture.in.mk/ to http://www.culture.in.mk/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041210035451/http://www.macedonia.co.uk/mcic/cultureandart/art/icons.asp to http://www.macedonia.co.uk/mcic/cultureandart/art/icons.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 11:35, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Macedonian Culture vs. Culture of North Macedonia
Right now, the article purports to refer to the culture of ethnic Macedonians ("Macedonian culture is the culture of the ethnic Macedonian population") and is thus appropriately titled 'Macedonian culture'. However, all the subsections refer to the culture of the country of North Macedonia (Music of North Macedonia, Cinema of North Macedonia etc.) and include many references to things like Islamic architecture and the Manaki brothers (who were Aromanians), which pertain to the country but nor the ethnic group.

On the other hand, there is no reference to anything related to ethnic Macedonians outside of North Macedonia, nor in my view should there be, since this would be covered by articles like Macedonian diaspora and Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia.

This is consistent with the practice in other similar articles (Culture of Greece, Culture of Montenegro, Culture of Bosnia Herzegovina etc.) which all refer to countries and not ethnic groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.129.52 (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I, therefore, suggest changing the title to 'Culture of North Macedonia' and adjusting the first sentence accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.129.52 (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Please start an RfC here if you want to change the long-standing scope of the article. We are having too many hasty, rushed-through changes of too many articles at once in this topic area today. It's been impossible to keep track of things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm actually only suggesting changing one sentence and the title. The rest of the article is already appropriate to the scope of 'Culture of North Macedonia' and completely inappropriate to the scope of 'Macedonian Culture'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.129.52 (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC)