Talk:Cumberland, Maryland/Archive 1

Updated
I have updated the Cumberland Wiki page so that it has the same "flow", if you will, of the other city pages and help the overall look of the page. I only erased one thing, a map, that was under the "Geography" heading. I attempted to add the localized half of that map under the Maryland state map in the infobox, but could not. If anyone can, the localized map is called "Cumberlandmd_localmap.jpg".

I have not erased any text added by others.

I have though, added several things such as the media information, climate information (via NOAA), links to the area universities/colleges and added a clearer and slightly larger version of the Cumberland city seal.

I hope I have, in no way, upset anyone by making these changes. --SVRTVDude 04:30am EST, December 30th, 2006

Media Section Update
I have updated the FM and AM radio station section, as well as the TV station section and combined it with the local newspapers already listed under the heading "Local Media". All radio stations listed are listed on radio-locator.com as being local or "city grade" stations and all putting city-grade signals into Cumberland. The lone TV station, though low-power and a translator of TBN, is located near and serves Cumberland proper. --SVRTVDude 10:45pm, December 29th, 2006


 * Good job! That looks great!!

Thread 1
1. The list of "nearby towns within the metro statistical Area" in the very first section perplexes me. Isn't this an article about Cumberland? Consolidate this list with "Nearby Cities and Towns" that comes later in the article. 2. Delete the "Nearby Cities and Towns" section altogether. 3. Somebody who knows how to do so should make the numerous images appear along the right-hand side of the article, and not in line. 4. Somebody who knows about the glass industry in Cumberland obviously added the "Glass Industry" section, but it should be put into paragraph form and not list form. 5. Are all the destinations and prices for rail destinations necessary? It feels like an advertisement for Amtrak. 6. Looks to me as if two-thirds of the radio stations listed in the "Radio Stations" section are not in Cumberland. Perhaps those not in Cumberland should be listed in a separate article called "Cumberland-area Radio Stations," for example. 7. The "Cumberland's Ancestries" section needs some work. Specifically, some sourcing so as to appear credible. Also, this section could be worked into the "Demographics" section. 8. The "External Links" section needs to be cross-checked against all the links included in the actual article. My guess is that many, many of them are duplicates. --Boombasticata 04:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The additions to this page add depth, but it reads much like a tourist brochure.
 * It is great that there is so much content on this page, but it is getting very big and unwieldy. The page should probably be split into smaller sites.  Also, there are alot of links on the site.  Should those be moved somewhere else? 199.248.201.253 13:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 20 December 2006: I don't think its a good idea to split the page too much... its harder to watch over multiple pages and the links are an exteremly value resource for people wanting to know more about the Cumberland experience...so I wouldn't remove them... a lot of research when into locating all of those links and Its certainly not harming anything... most people would agree they add value to the article as a type of reference to check for further information on different aspects of the city and there just doesn't exist anything like this on the internet where people can share links like this...I've discovered all sorts of things about Cumberland, I had no idea existed before...
 * I agree that the links are a good resource and are useful, but overall the page seems longer than pages for other cities on Wikipedia. I think it gets to the point where you have so much information that readers are not able to find the information they need.  This is a good problem to have though.  It seems that the Cumberland page has more devoted contributors than cities 10 times its size!  I don't have the wiki-skills to break the page up myself, but long term it may be a good thing to do if people keep contributing information.  199.248.201.253 17:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * How would you propose to break it up?
 * Suggestions:

Thread 2

 * Frostburg State University shouldn't be in the list of schools located in Cumberland. It is located in Frostburg (roughly 15 miles away in a different zip code)). (18 December 2006 TemptressToo)
 * I don't agree with you. Its important to note Frostburg state as a resource to Cumberland residents since its extemely close and a very significant number of Cumberland residents went to school here. If you want to be picky about it, I suppose we could create a regional wiki page.....At one point I had considered creating a regional wiki page for the Cumberland Region... but I just decided to roll it in all under the same page since Cumberland is both the largest city and county seat for Allegany County... realisitically,  nearby cities like Frostburg, Lavale are so close together in terms of commuting and distance that they practical function as the same entity... I spend a singificant part of my day in all three places in fact... too many people live in Cumberland and work in Frostburg and vica versa to realisitically seperate them...something very signicant is lost if you chop them up and disection them like a science experiment... you don't get the real picture... the information becomes hidden and I don't think that accurately describes the city of cumberland if you do that...Also, when I say Frostburg and Cumberland are extemely close, its important to note that 15 miles within the Cumberland region is like 1 mile of traveling distance in larger cities such as Baltimore or DC, since they both take the same time to travel...the only difference is that with one, you are stuck in endless traffic lights on after the other, whereas with the other you are enjoying the pleasent scenery and mountains....the only real different is just density... pack endless houses together or spread them out with trees in between...they still function the same if the roadway system is good...
 * I think the heading "Regional Education" and the fact that FSU is clearly identified as being in Frostburg is a good compromise. 199.248.201.253 18:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Links
After the links were removed (not by me), I have found out that there is a Wikia site (a division of Wikipedia) and am considering moving the links there. Would like to know everyone's opinion before doing so or should it just be left as is. Wikia, by the way, is here []. Rock on....SVRTVDude 12:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be much more appropriate provided that Wikia allows for massive amounts of external links like that. As you'll see from the comments on the AFD and the deletion review, this is not my personal crusade or something.  This is based on the policies of Wikipedia (WP:NOT and WP:EL) and other long-standing users seem to agree with that.  So if the links work on Wikia, great, if not, I'm not sure what to tell you.  I can see the government links staying (which you already added back to the article) but otherwise, I don't think any others are appropriate (especially not the ones for local music stores, hotel accommodations, and online forums and message boards).  Metros232 13:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I vote to move the links to the Wikia site. They are a better fit there in than they are in Wikipedia. 199.248.201.253 17:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

They should say here until they are accepted by DMOZ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alleganywiki (talk • contribs).


 * Sorry, but excessive linking is considered spam. Check this: Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. -- ReyBrujo 22:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happens with these links, I'm of the opinion that the hundreds of links to outside sites made this article about Cumberland look pretty amateur and silly. An online encyclopedia should not be a clearing house for Cumberland businesses. That's what the yellow pages are for. It takes no skill to compile lists. It takes skill to collectively write a balanced, fair, impartial article about a place that people care about. --Boombasticata 15:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Wiki External Link Policy
External links

The links do not violate Wiki policy... and they are useful... they should stay here...

From Wiki Policy: "Wikipedia articles can include links to web pages outside Wikipedia. Such pages could contain further research which is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks); or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article (such as reviews and interviews)."
 * No, that is the guideline, and note that "on-topic". The topic is "Cumberland, Maryland", not "The daddy and mommy's shop at the third avenue of Cumberland, Maryland". The policy, as I explained above, is crisp clear: Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. You are adding over 130 external links to an article. That is considered abuse. -- ReyBrujo 22:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

there are a few links that don't belong.... but you should delete all of them... they are related... Who are you to judge? are you even from this city? why don't we let people from cumberland decide... I think they should stay here until DMOZ picks them up... this type of resource doesn't exist to this extent for the city of cumberland...

its all related to cumberland... if you lived there you would know... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alleganywiki (talk • contribs).
 * No, I am not from the city, which makes me as good as you to judge. The article should be useful for everyone, those living in the city and those who live in Japan. Having a link to a pub or drugstore is a waste of space for both those living there (they already know it, or can walk to the shop to ask for the URL) and those living in Japan (who are interested in the history of the city and not whether there is a drugstore near a park or not). We are not a repository of external links, that is why Further Links for Cumberland, Maryland was speedy deleted. There are still too many links around that add nothing to the article which should be removed as well. We are not a tourism guide, we are an encyclopedia. -- ReyBrujo 22:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The first section of links is VERY RELATED... you don't know what you are talking about... you didn't even look at the links ... particularly the first section...

Explain it
Ok go through each section and explain why it doesn't belong? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alleganywiki (talk • contribs).
 * (spam removed)
 * Burden of evidence: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. It is not I the one who should tell you why I remove the link, but instead you the one who should justify the addition. -- ReyBrujo 22:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

STOP DELETING MY COMMENTS!!! I'm definating going to report you to the head admin...just click on the first 20 links and read them... everything in them is paraphrased from those links...how any they not be good external links???? and you keep deleting them as being not related... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alleganywiki (talk • contribs).
 * I just deleted your spam list. I have created a topic here, go ask there if your links are fine enough. -- ReyBrujo 22:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the links that point to the HS band and the HS football team. These are more appropriate on the high school article instead of here.  They already exist on the high school article, Metros232 23:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have removed the ones that are already at Dmoz. Now I am going to remove the ones that are already inside articles. -- ReyBrujo 00:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that all of the links currently listed here wouldn't be found in the dmoz Cumberland category, such as the ones specific to Allegany County. Those would be found in the dmoz category for Allegany County. As well, if they're suitable to be included in Wikipedia, they should be in the Allegany County, Maryland article, not here. &mdash;Wrathchild (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This debate is getting out of control. The question should not be "are you a Cumberland local or not?" but rather "are the links in accordance with the mission of Wikipedia." Some of them obviously are, most of them probably are not. Everyone (at least me) appriciates all of the work Alleganywiki has put into improving this site, but doesn't mean that every link he or she found must stay. ReyBrujo is not trying to undermine or insult anybody, just trying to improve the site and make it better. Lets stop the revert war and discuss the links civily on this page instead. It is bad for the site to have those unsightly warning headers on the top of the page. 199.248.201.253 13:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Long Lists
I saw some users that were putting up tags on the page complaining about the long lists in certain sections. This may be a good opportunity to break off some of the content to smaller sites. Specifically, The "Industrial Legacy" contains alot of content, and would be an ideal candidate for a separate page. We could leave a paragraph or two summarizing the content, and then put a hyperlink to the new page where all of the detailed lists can be housed.

Also, I recommend we delete the list of train schedules. This info is available through the AMTRACK link at the bottom of the page and doesn't add much content about Cumberland. What do you guys think? Lasersnake 17:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC) (formerly know as 199.248.201.253)