Talk:Cumberland Sheepdog

Extinction
The cumberland sheepdog is NOT extinct, as believed, just very rare.....very occasionally border collie parents, particularly working dogs, will produce a litter which will, unknown to breeders, have a cumberland in it.Normally, as they are small in comparison to most borders, they are considered by misled breeders to be a runt, and sold off cheaply. However, these dogs are more intelligent, quicker across the ground, and easier to train than the border collie, and are multi skilled....they can be used as "beaters" chasing birds out of gorse and bracken etc. as they tend to be broad chested but squat, or traditional sheepdogs. Their markings are very distinct, being the traditional black and white colours, with a black body, tail and legs, with white "feet" and tip of tail, and a white mane and chest. They are also recognisable by their coats which are thick and unusually curly ( protection from the extreme Cumbrian weather conditions they traditionally worked in). The snout is short and almost spaniel like, and the ears are normally floppy and quite small. The expression is keen, alert and friendly, but like border collies they go into intense concentration mode immediately when performing tasks or just playing. They are normally around 48-50 cms tall at their backs, and shorter than border collies, but are very lean, and have a very athletic frame. They are fussy with dietary needs, and eat only lean meats, turning their noses up at processed dog foods. Their digestive systems are very sensitive and any change to their feeding habits or diet can severely upset their stomachs. Breeders don't accept that the cumberland still exists, but farmers do...particularly farmers who breed their own working dogs! Farmers have been known to pay three or four times the value of a border collie for a cumberland, in order to breed them, as they are excellent sheepdogs with a fantastic temperament. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.153.182 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 5 October 2009
 * If those are really dogs with Border Collie parents, then the most they show is that there are non-Border Collie genes floating around in the population, they don't show that the Cumberland survives. You might get a throwback to one or other feature of the Cumberland, but not to all of them at once, and even if you did, you'd still have Border Collie genes in there.  You cannot get one breed of dog from two parents of another breed.
 * Your description seems to be of a single dog, and does not match that of the Cumberland Sheepdog in the article. To my eye "floppy ears", "short spaniel-like muzzle", "squat", "chasing birds out of bracken", "fussy with dietary needs" all sound much more like an actual spaniel cross than any type of sheepdog.  It is of course possible to get puppies from two different sires in the same litter.  I think your collie bitch had an unscheduled visitor...
 * It seems likely that the population of farm collies in Cumbria is largely Border Collie, but includes genes from the extinct Cumberland Sheepdog, and these lead to variability in the modern dogs. It may well be that lines still exist with few Border Collie genes, and if so it may be possible to rescue the old type – this is much what is happening with the Welsh Sheepdog.
 * Incidentally, none of this can be included in the article unless we can find refs... Richard New Forest (talk) 08:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolute claptrap, young man! How can you deny the existence of a sheepdog breed, when the Cumberland is exactly what you purport it to be? The Cumberland is a sheepdog breed, and the original working Collie " old hemp" is a cross breed rom Cumbria! Border collies are next generation sheepdogs. We own a Cumberland sheepdog, and can post photos of him to prove his existence.We, as smallholders in The UK ( Scotland ) have bred SHEEPDOGS for the last twenty years, and we can assure you that the original poster is correct.... the cumberand is alive and well, and working hard here in Ayrshire, as welll as many other farms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.122.158 (talk) 01:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello...as a farmer from Wales, I am intrigued by this discussion. I have bred and ran many litters of so called border collie sheepdogs over the last 30 yeras or so. They tend to be varied in their appearance, but are typical in their behaviour. They are fantastic sheep dogs, and in my mind not a pet dog....but thats just me! Irrelevant of what is believed there are a lot of misconceptions where border collies are concerned. I am not a fan of show dogs, to me, border collies are sheep dogs.....end of! However, the best sheep working dogs are mainly black, with white flashes on tail and feet....a bit like the descriptive of a sheepdog! To me the cumberland sheepdog argument is ridiculous.......if the dog shows herding instinct, and is highly intelligent and trainable, then it's a sheepdog, regardless of it's roots! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.122.158 (talk) 01:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

As a livestock farmer based in the Cotswolds I rely on my working dogs to keep my animals in check. I use a small collie to herd in my cattle for milking, and also for basic shepherding. I also have a rare breed Australian shepdog, who nips the animals.....something I am adverse to. I find my small collie to be the easiest to work with, as opposed to the aussie! I have had mixed reactions from other farmers, some who tell me my dog is a rare breed cumberland sheepdog, to those who just say " I wish my shepdog was as clever" Me...I don't care if my dog is a rare breed....he is just a sheepdog to me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.122.158 (talk) 02:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

My friend, the Cumberland didn't become extinct....who told you that? There will always be two sorts of collies..the bred for Crufts variety, which may make the owner very proud as it sits looking pretty on a podium.......and the TRUE Collie..the one whose boundless energy and ability to work to commands is it's innherent skill...there are so many misconceptions about the breed...when it all boils down to it, they are working sheepdogs, are they not? Names are irrelevant....sheepdogs are..............sheepdogs! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.122.158 (talk) 02:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The above comments are clearly all from the same person. I've raised this issue on the IP's talk page – but can we please have honest comments here.  Difficult to untangle fact from fiction in the comments...  However, here are a few points:
 * I did not say that the Cumberland Sheepdog does not exist. I said a "pure" Cumberland pup cannot come from two Border parents.  When I said "the extinct Cumberland Sheepdog" I ought to have put "extinct" in quotes.
 * A photo of a dog cannot prove the existence of a breed. Such a dog could be any kind of mongrel that happens to look like something else, or it could be something else that happens to look similar.  I am not saying such a dog is not a Cumberland, I'm saying that a photo of one dog doesn't prove anything.
 * Many of the comments above could be talking about the difference between working collies and show/pet ones. Working collie strains are not necessarily Cumberlands – although it is indeed within such types that any surviving Cumberland strains are likely to be found.
 * Working collies of traditional, pre-Border-Collie type are not necessarily Cumberlands everywhere in the country: similar dogs were and are found all over Britain – for example they include the Welsh Sheepdog. I suspect that if more people took an interest in their local working sheepdog strains, we'd soon have named traditional sheepdog breeds or landraces all over the place – and a jolly good thing too!  Richard New Forest (talk) 08:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

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