Talk:Cumbia (Colombia)

Untitled
Here's some stuff I can quite swallow about the article.
 * First of all, it's the first time i've ever seen Rafaga or Gilda labeled glamorous cumbia (what's the spanish expression?). I've always read, heard on TV, or named by people by either cumbia or Musica Tropical (tropical music), or even pachanga. I think the "glamorous cumbia" label is not correct.
 * Second. The bands are dressed in Epoque suits of the 19th Century, and they wear jewelry, sometimes becoming close to an image that can be described like a Liberace style. Besides Ráfaga, I can't think of other bands matching the description. But I hardly listen -let alone watch- cumbia (besides some Gilda back in 1998). Searches on Gilda, and pics of Walter Olmos, Grupo Sombras (Antonio Rios listed on the article was Sombras' singer), Daniel Agostini, Amar Azul, are hard to see as liberace.
 * Third, regional scene in the genrebox links Argentina to cumbia villera, which is a currently sucessful offspring (among many offsprings) from the whole argentine cumbia scene, not the whole scene.
 * Fourth, Cumbia and Cuarteto have been popular in lower classes in Argentina, previously to the 90s. The boom on urban centres such as Rosario or Buenos Aires, doesn't change the fact they were already very popular on the north of Argentina or Cordoba.
 * Fifth, the article starts saying cumbia is from Colombia, and roughly half the article talks about Cumbia from Argentina. Argentine cumbia should be moved to an article by itself (and the link on the genrebox directed to it).
 * Sixth, the (imho) real cumbia is barely mentioned. The spanish wikipedia article is quite extensive es:Cumbia. This is actually a suggestion, which I would be glad to help to translate.

On a side, I think Luna Nueva deserves to be mentioned on the Argentine Cumbia article, they even performed on the Luna Park... SpiceMan 22:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree in most (if not all) your above mentioned points. Glamorous Cumbia seams to be an original phrase of the anonymous user who created both Glamorous cumbia and Gauchos Pesados. I've got no clue about Luna Nueva. We defenitely need an Argentine Cumbia article. -Mariano 08:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * 'Tis done, yet woefully incomplete. I took Mexican and Argentine cumbia out and into their own articles, but Argentine cumbia is rather small and Mexican cumbia is barely a stub. Got a link to it in Music of Mexico too. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

National cumbias
Cumbia surged in Colombia and expanded to other countries, its a fact. To be considered cumbia it must have a single identity that determines that is a cumbia, for this you can then talk about sub-genres; colombian cumbia, argentinian cumbia, mexican cumbia and please find out and explain what makes the differences among these sub-genres. there is no need to create new pages about these subgenres because I dont think they defer that much from each other, maybe one or two instruments but in essence they are the same. —This unsigned comment was added by F3rn4nd0 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 23 March 2006.


 * (I took the liberty of rearranging the above and signing. Please use --~ to sign and date your contributions.) I don't remember now why exactly I split those articles (it was in August 2005!) but I assume it must have been because they are different. The instruments might be similar but history, influences and offshoots/derivations are not. Mixing the history of Arg. cumbia villera with that of Mex. sonidero surely isn't right, is it? I'd rather have several small articles with the particulars of each national cumbia well marked, instead one big article with sections where you don't have enough room to cover minor details. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

yep I thought about it after readaing about it.. thanks.. F3rn4nd0 (talk contribs)

Thanks for telling me, Im pretty much new to wikipedia... I need someone to please help me (if necessary) to complete the summarized list of instruments... F3rn4nd0 (talk


 * Cumbia as a courtship ritual is actually part of cumbia's origins, it's part of traditional cumbia and not modern cumbia. F3rn4nd0 (talk

Well sorry for my english, i just got one simple thing to say, about the origins, i dont doubt that the original cumbia was mainly afro-indian in its first days, but u cant talk about cumbia in its early stage and talk like if you were talking about CUMBIA, the cumbia as we know it today, has much more to do with spanish or european folk than with any african traditional music, at least if u listen to portuguese folk we will find great similarities, in the accords from the accordeon (basically the same) in the accords from the bass, and even the rythm, so i find it unfair that u dont even mention spanish/european, influences in the music, just check for example a video like "folklore portugues" in youtube, and sometimes u will feel like u listening cumbia (still cumbia is better). So thats basically it, u can say "original cumbia" is a mix of indian and african, but u cant say cumbia (as we know it) is just that, ill say its AT LEAST 50% spanish or european (u can listen spanish portuguese dutch german etc folk that ull see sounds very like it) 40 % african (the drums) and 10% native american (some instruments some of the melodies and a little bit of the rhytm) Thats just it, is normal to see that kind of definitions like "afro-american music" why not "spanish-afro" or "euro-afro" music? calling it south-american or caribbean music should be enough ...is like there is some need to deny the european roots wich are so or more obvious than the african, the percussion is african the rest is european, and my source to say this is all the music i listen. Anyway what matters is that cumbia is great, and by the way there is also very similar with north brasilian "forró" (even more similar), wich of course also sounds a lot like portuguese folclore, but i prefer cumbia from all them.Sabugo (talk) 04:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Links
Why is there a link to http://www.sonidoextasis.com.mx? As an example of Cumbia, you might just as well include a link to any other band or, better yet, to a website that offers a variety of free samples of Cumbia music. I've found that address but there are possibly many others: http://music.download.com/2001-9061_32-0.html  - 83.129.176.181 17:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC) www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB8sBV7r7xM&index=1&list=PLu29Wi19_vC12Sl_aZmfsvYvCdKB-SO3n — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.98.152 (talk) 14:40, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Peruvian Cumbia
This section does not adequately describe Peruvian Cumbia, instead opting to discuss the sub-genre Chicha. Chicha should be in its own article (current article about Chicha is about food by the same name). Additionally, the artists selected as examples of Peruvian Chicha are not good examples at all. Chicha has more of a psychedelia influence than any of the examples represent. "Etc." is not acceptable in a list of exemplary artists of the particular style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.152.199.162 (talk) 13:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Added. Please add more to the section. Morganfitzp (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Panamanian Cumbia
Cumbia isnt an exclusive genre from Colombia, at Panama we have 16 types of cumbia that comes from colonial times.

Some examples:

Spanish Cumbia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRhZoium_6I

Native American Cumbia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIfAuPDtUKQ

Africanamerican cumbia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0yxj5hjUlE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Panama1519 (talk • contribs) 01:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Sweet. Go ahead a write these up in the new section about Panama. Please include print sources if you have some. Morganfitzp (talk) 21:27, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Done!

--Panama1519 (talk) 02:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Cumbia music by country be merged into Cumbia. Regional Cumbias are a subset of Cumbia as a whole, yet the main Cumbia article is tiny by comparison and offers little information. Inclusion of everything in the Cumbia music by country article would provide that information. Morganfitzp (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge Well noticed, Morganfitzp. I'll get on to cleaning the article a little bit now before the probable merger! Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:34, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I migrated those sections over with a little re-ordering. A lot still needs adding to this article to move it up past start class. Morganfitzp (talk) 21:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I also propose that Cumbia (Colombia) be merged into Cumbia. Colombia cumbia is the root of cumbia and all of the information in that article could be migrated here. Morganfitzp (talk) 14:11, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I am currently translating the article Cumbia (Colombia) from Spanish. I would suggest that I finish my job there first. After that, you can decide on merging the articles if that pleases you Nicoguaro (talk) 17:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * That's amazing. Thanks for your work. Morganfitzp (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Nicoguaro! Should you need help with the translations, please tell! :-) Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:00, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support: there isn't enough difference or information to warrant separating the articles by country. Richard3120 (talk) 00:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support--but merge them selectively. There is too much unreferenced stuff in there. Drmies (talk) 04:39, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 22:44, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Over-policed
I think the editing criteria for this article are bit too harsh. Many editors have contributed substantially referenced material here, and our content has been removed. The result is a paltry article that fails to represent the depth and breadth of one of Latin America's largest cultural traditions. Rather than fight editing wars, I'm tempted to visit this page and request an admin step in and assess the history of what's been happening here. I'm reticent to do that because I'd rather get into the far more important history of the actual subject at hand: cumbia.. Morganfitzp (talk) 21:58, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

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Is it really THAT controversial?
The opening paragraph is the generally accepted truth: "It began as a courtship dance practiced among the Indigenous population on the Caribbean coasts of Colombia. It later mixed with African and European instruments, steps and musical characteristics. " The thrust of the article does not support that, due to dilution.

The only controversy I'm aware of is; was it pure Indigenous origin, or Black too, and possibly Spanish, and how much of each. (And how it spread.) Two nearby rival villages claim origin, Big Wow. (IMO, mixture not purity seems logical.)

(My impression; It was also like a circular square dance and the "caller" as a well respected, wise villager (I envision similarities to a medicine man) who guiding the dance, was often also (lightly?) directing individual courtships.)

With all the other "possible" descriptions listed, I wonder if every harebrained armchair postulate is indiscriminately being included, as in shitty objective journalism? If the editors can't decide, it seems there ought to be enough info included that the reader could at least assign probabilities of veracity. ...but who could keep reading knowing they are sifting trash? Not the average reader. Cheers! --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:78B0:1743:9EC6:2F6B (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford

To much Spanish.
There must be 20 or thirty paragraphs of Spanish, then the En translation. One single paragraph even has ~20 lines of Spanish, then finishes in English. ...Never seen anything even close in En Wiki. Since nobody has challenged the translations for accuracy, they must be accurate, so please fix this distraction. Delete or move to refs. Cheers! --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:78B0:1743:9EC6:2F6B (talk) 20:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford
 * No, I guess you could say I "challenged" the translations' accuracy: they're probably lightly edited Google Translate, since they contained a bunch of errors that a human reader with context wouldn't be likely to make--for example there was "approximation of St. John's feast day" when from context "aproximación" was clearly "approach," "up the neighborhood" when instead of "the Arriba (high) neighborhood," "rarely" for "weirdly," and others. I cleaned up what I could, but ran out of time and I'm neither a native speaker nor an expert on cumbia so I still suspect they're not quite right. Many reading about topics like this know some Spanish and find it useful; you often see originals and translations of songs/poems/quotes. The original can also be useful if you want to search for lyrics, titles, and so on that change when translated.
 * I don't know Wiki's policy on this stuff but the English is not in good shape, and removing the Spanish will make it difficult to fix it. Pragmatically, I would leave both there. Easy enough to scroll past the parts you can't read. You're not really going to avoid Spanish if you're researching cumbia, haha.76.103.246.130 (talk) 04:15, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ain't got no rhythm!
Quoting: " ...Jose Barros, in order to preserve the original rhythms of traditional Cumbia music."

The opening defining sentence mentions Cumbia's rhythm. "Rhythm" is is used 17 times in the article. Am I missing something? Cumbian rhythm is never defined, not even described. — Also, why no sound clips; Debussy gets about 20! Guess what? It's about the music! — Cheers! --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:78B0:1743:9EC6:2F6B (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford

NPOV tag
The article stress overly cumbias Colombian origins and its nature as Colombian folklore. Just like rock music has its roots in the US but is not longer an exclusive US-phenomenon cumbia is now understood as something larger, no longer "Colombian". Indeed most cumbia subgenres have little resemblance to the original cumbia, both in music, aesthetics or sociocultural setting. Take New Chilean Cumbia Rock, Cumbia cheta or technocumbia. Dentren |  Ta lk  04:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

But what *is* it?
Am I missing something? In the entire article there's not a sentence of description of what Cumbia actually sounds like, what rhythms it uses, no examples of songs or melodies, no list of performers...2A01:4B00:F411:4D00:D03:7DA5:8B06:9A62 (talk) 20:38, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Cultural Misappropriation?
What specific structural elements of Cumbia music are "European" in nature? The overriding basis for the claims of this association appears to be the use of the Spanish language. The only other justification for ascribing a "European foundation" to Cumbia music seems to be the adoption of musical instruments of European origin. The first thing that stands out upon sampling different renditions of the genre is the drumbeat patterns. Both the call and response patterns, especially the responsorial singing, and the intricate polyrhythmic structures of the songs bear similarities to those found in other Afro-Latino genres and African musical traditions. It should not be difficult for anyone to identify purely "indigenous" or "European" musical forms that blend these characteristics. Lamin Muh G (talk) 06:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)