Talk:Cunt/Archive 3

More uses
In Life of Brian, Reg of the PFJ upbraids Brian "You CUNT! etc" - see Monty Python’s Life of Brian Bob Hawke famously described Bill Hayden as "a lying cunt with a limited future" - see Bob Hawke Ian Healy to Arjuna Ranatunga when the latter called for a runner during a one day cricket match: "You don't get a runner for being an overweight, unfit, fat cunt" - 2001 - Zimbabwean cricketer Grant Flower played a shot against Australia which just evaded the fielders and scored some runs. Australian bowler Shane Warne's reaction, which was made almost directly into the stump microphones and heard on national television: "You fuckin' arsey cunt!" -  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tooclever4Uhaterz (talk • contribs) 13:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a real danger that this article is eventually going to be overloaded with references and uses, and I'd suggest some restraint is necessary to avoid the proposal that there should be a List of Uses of the Word "Cunt". I think the encyclopedia could live without such a list. -- Rodhullandemu  (talk - contribs) 18:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, trivia really. But which uses should be in the encyclopedia and which shouldn't? James Joyce's use is notable and less trivial, but don't we go a bit into POV each time? Monty Python is a celebrated comedy troupe and James Joyce is a celebrated writer.--Keer lls ton 13:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't get what you mean, all the uses you listed are exactly the same. Funny examples none the less, but nothing that wasn't covered in the article.

I remembered a fairly popular Aussie use of the word aswell; funny-cunt (as in, "What a funny cunt!")

Can be very good if used properly. HA. HAHA. HAHAHA. >:D
 * = That's just what we need in modern day social morality, A good and comprehensive study on how to spread vulgarian word connotations from one language and culture to another. Maybe the United Nations needs to sponsor this. WFPMWFPM (talk) 03:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Formatting Changes
Reverted good faith edits by Dwarf Kirlston; Revert pending consensus discussion. I was bold, but given that this is a controversial page, my edits were held back until consensus could be reached.

Currently Usage has topics 4.1 In modern literature 4.2 Referring to women 4.3 Referring to men 4.4 Usage in Great Britain 4.5 Usage in Ireland & Scotland 4.6 Usage in Australia 4.7 Usage in the United States 4.8 Referring to inanimate objects 4.9 Other uses

I propose that "In Modern Literature" be moved to "in popular culture" - literature is ,perhaps not "popular" literature but, definitely not popular usage I propose that Usage by country be preceded by the different types of usage. I note that "Usage:pre-20th Century" relates to etymology as origins to current usage - I propose that "Vulgarity and offensiveness should not split them apart.--Keer lls ton 13:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Note: I also did something less likely to reach easy consensus, more debatable, than the above, I altered headings. I changed "Usage in Country Name" to "Country Name" - both are perhaps a tad unpalatable, and very debatable. This wold have deserved some talk page discussion even in an uncontroversial page.--Keer lls ton 13:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Lead
Proposed by User:Rodhullandemu
 * basic definition - genital area, etc
 * etymology
 * offensive connotations
 * familiar usage

I agree, but I wanted to say that Etymology should not simply be moved up but rather summarized, made concise -goes for all the other parts as well. Also it seems that the "Vulgarity and offensiveness" is badly formatted because it was part of a previous lead.--Keer lls ton 13:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Link needs update
http://www.matthewhunt.com/website/cunt/index.html instead of http://www.matthewhunt.com/cunt/ at the end of the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.18.136.67 (talk) 23:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you can do that. -- Rodhullandemu  (please reply here - contribs) 22:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, you can't since the page is semi-protected. I'll do it. -- Rodhullandemu  (please reply here - contribs) 22:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Bull by the Horns
I've taken out a lot of stuff which by any standard is moot- look at the diffs to see what- or unsourced, or irrelevant. That which remains (from what I've looked at) but seems to be worthy of inclusion, I've tagged as needing citation. This is of necessity my own perspective and I don't mind being shot down for it; however, as I pointed out above, apart from the vandals, people have been sticking folkloric uses in without proper sources. Rather than just tear them out, I've left them for now, but it is a lot of work to try and find sources for recent popular culture. One example- in the "Rhyming Slang" section, there was a reference to an Essex butcher, Robert Munt. Leaving WP:BLP considerations aside, I could not find an independent source for this, so it went. A little restraint, discipline & encyclopediarity would not go amiss here. When time permits, I'll continue. -- Rodhullandemu  (please reply here - contribs) 02:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Support Might I say that Spoonerisms and so on are included in usage? perhaps a rename into "Usage:Spoonerisms..." in is order.--Keer lls ton 03:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Archive and Progress
Now that the article itself is semi-protected for a month, some housekeeping and organisation might be useful (& thanks already to User:Dwarf Kirlston here). I've taken the liberty of archiving a load of stuff which has either been incorporated, or rejected for inclusion as either irrelevant or unconstructive. In particular, it would seem prudent henceforth to be aggressive towards unsourced additions in "popular culture"-type sections, particularly music, film and television. The reasoning behind this is simple: notability; there was a time when use of "cunt" was a shocker, but those times are now behind us, unless you're aged about eleven. I'd argue that for an addition to be truly encyclopedic, it now has to be somehow outside or beyond the current usage which we document here. Having said that, please feel free to present counter-arguments and discussion; after all, nobody owns any Wikipedia article; it may not be a free-for-all, but it should at least be constructive. Happy New Year! -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 03:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Film: The word appears in The Sound Of Music in a scene where a nun asks in a cut-glass accent "What is it you can't face?" so that it comes out as "What is it, you cuntface?". 86.142.207.163 (talk) 10:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC) George Icbar 29 january 2008

Links
Did you see what does the last link point to? "Vaginafest.us", a page full of vaginas photos... Is that proper for an encyclopedia? --82.56.84.94 (talk) 00:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup. Wikipedia is not censored. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 00:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The link is borderline relevant, in that it discusses "YONI YAGNA, CELEBRATION OF CUNT", and in that discussion makes a distinction between cunt & vagina. It is not a very authoritative looking website, but equally its content is distinct and fulsome. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Berk (dead link)
A citation URL for the origin of "berk" (45) appears to be dead. I can't edit in a replacement directly. However, both The New Oxford Dictionary of English (and, I'm assuming, any other print dictionary of a decent size) and Merriam-Webster Online give similar origins of the word (1930s, as rhyming slang etc), if anyone wants to do so. --English as tuppence 17:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 17:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Civilian Under Naval Training
I heard this used by Naval Reservists (myself among them) to describe themselves when I was attending schools at Naval Air Technical Training Center Memphis aboard Naval Air Station Memphis, Tennessee in 1970-1971.LorenzoB (talk) 03:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a reference for this, as it needs to be verifiable? -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 03:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Military Uses
for whoever edits this page, 'cunt caps' are also worn by some Australian air force personal.
 * There would need to be a reliable source for this. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 03:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

i must point out then that under us military usage there is no citation. no meaning to be rude in doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.9.184.45 (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"C-Word"
When someone says the bad "C-Word," is the person saying the word "Cunt?" If so, should that be added to the article? 67.160.140.132 Gibsonj338 (talk) 23:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Usually, but I think (without looking at the article) there are one or two references in there already, e.g. to "seaward" being misunderstood. Not sure how you'd source it anyway. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 23:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I just foud in the article where it talks about the "C-Word." Sorry about that. Gibsonj338 (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC) In the U.S. Navy a cunt cap is also known as a Piss Cutter. This term is undoubtable derived from cunts use as a team for the female genitalia.
 * This would need a source. If I can find one, it might be important. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 21:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Nigger is considered the N word and Cunt is considered the C word. No other slurs currently have this "rule" that I know of. Eventually, I guess if other names bother people enough, they will be referred in the same way. I can't wait for whites to finally get this privilege with the H word (Honky) as it's equally abused and improper. (It's a double-standard!) p.s. The text that explains there is no response to "cunt", if men call women bitches, they acutally use the word jerk as well, not just asshole. Not a big deal, just saying. And cunt isn't always used in a negative way, it may be used as "dirty talk" during sex or role-playing. 69.129.170.102 (talk) 10:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation
The article Cunt (novel) needs to be linked to. 60.234.249.161 (talk) 08:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Stupid text
>>In certain circles the word is considered merely a common profanity with an often humorous connotation. For example, in Australia, Ireland and among some Europeans who speak English as a second language, the word may be used as a colloquial term of endearment (e.g., in such phrases as "You're a funny cunt!" or "Daft cunt!").<<

I object to the claim that Europeans who speak English as a second language, even use the word "cunt". This is a ridiculous claim, it is unsubstantiated, and I challenge it. Gregpalmerx (talk) 23:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is unsourced, so it goes. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 23:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, I have heard the word being used in the Netherlands. This is possibly because there is a very similar Dutch word "kut" which has the same implicate meaning, but doesn't carry the same level of offence as the word "cunt" does in the U.S. Blankfrackis (talk) 23:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, my Dutch ex-girlfiend was very uninhibited about using the word, precisely because of the Dutch word 'kut'. Paul B (talk) 23:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Popular Music
Australian band TISM has also released an album titled Australia the Lucky Cunt, a play on words derived from Australia being known as the lucky country. The album was later re-released with the title Censored Due To Legal Advice. Ralphy512 (talk) 07:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The rock band Jack Off Jill I thought was rather well known/infamous for using the word Cunt in their songs. I think probably more so cause they were an all girl band, and people think it's peculiar if a woman embraces what is considered to be a very insulting derogatory word towards women. Violet yoshi (talk) 20:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The main article page claims that the first use of the word in popular music was by Sid Vicious in 1978. However, this was preceded by the lyric "kissing cunt in Cannes" on Casino Boogie on The Rolling Stones' Exile on Main St. from 1972. This should be corrected on the main page. Nstanzione ([User talk:Nstanzione|talk]]) 22:32, 06 February 2009

I'm Surprised that there is no mention of the famous Sid Vicious interview with Judy Vermorel frequently cited with approval by Factory boss Tony Wilson:

Judy Vermorel; "how do you think your music appeals to the man on the street?"

Sid Vicious; "I've met the man on the street, and he's a cunt." 81.107.147.216 (talk) 00:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is just argot, and not a particularly notable use of the word, in my experience, which (mea culpa) is wide. You should walk along my street sometime. Rodhull  andemu  00:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Also 'Honey, Don't You Want A Man Like Me'by Frank Zappa, released in 1977 on the album 'Zappa In New York' has the line 'He called her a slut, a pig and a whore,a bitch and a cunt and she slammed the door in a petulant frenzy'

There is no mention of the 1969 song by Grank Funk Railroad T. N. U. C., which is a lot earlier than any of the cited uses.Fetz the Chemist —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fetz the chemist (talk • contribs) 03:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Jane Fonda Incident
Is it appropriate to include the February 14, 2008, incident when Jane Fonda said "cunt" on the Today Show? I'll leave this addition to the more astute Wiki-editors.
 * As time goes by, public use of the word becomes more common and arguably less offensive. The article is already overloaded with examples of its use, and a cull based on notability might be a worthy exercise. If Fonda's use generated comment or criticism which is reliably sourced, then it should go in, after all, it's not considered a word in normal use by 70-year old women. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 13:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Images
I think this article needs a picture of a 'cunt' to demonstrate what it is. Not a diagram but an actual image. It will help explain what the word is determined from 81.86.220.130 (talk) 12:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Does the lead section of the article not explain adequately what the word means? The article is also about the word and its use, not the thing, so a distinction can be drawn between it and, say breast.-- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 14:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Rodhulandemu. After all, under the article for fuck, there is no picture of a couple having sex.  Sure, it would be illustrative of what the word means in everyday language, but unnecessary.  15 Februaru 2008

Yes there is a description, but a picture paints a thousand words. And yes it is about the saying, but the saying relates to an actual thing. Given Wikipedia's policies of adding pictures to illustrate an article, and its no censorship policy, it is appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.220.130 (talk) 14:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This article is about the word and the meanings of the word. The lede mentions what it most commonly refers to, and those articles do have images. Dreaded Walrus t c 14:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed. If there were a high-quality picture of the word cunt, that would be suitable for this article.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 01:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Or, since he's mentioned in the text, a picture of Piers Morgan  Almost - instinct 23:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Libel laws being what they are in the UK, I think it might be cheaper if I took a day-trip to Lincolnshire and and photographed a road sign for Scunthorpe. -- Rodhull andemu  23:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with the original comment, i think the article would be enhanced by a picture of a cunt. The only reason I think anyone would objec to it,t is because they think the picture would be offensive. But those people would also consider the word offensive, and the picture would emphasize the offensiveness of the word to some people. There is nothing it the Wikipedia policy to prevent it, and there is the WP:Not censored policy to allow it. - ... Misty  Willows   talk   01:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think consensus is already well-established by serious contributors that an image is unnecessary here; the article deals with the word, not the thing itself, and if readers wish to explore the female genitalia in physiological terms, they'd be better of looking at vulva and vagina. Censorship is a red herring here; images must add to the understanding of the topic within the context of the article. I don't think this one does, since the article doesn't discuss "cunt" as part of the female body, it discusses it as a word. Rodhull  andemu  01:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Too many lists
The sheer number of lists and endless, marginally notable examples of the use of the word grossly detract from the quality of the article. I have eliminated the worst of these lists, but my edits were quickly reverted without a specific reason. I do not feel the removal of these lists was unwarranted, or even particularly bold. While the amount of text I deleted was enormous, the encyclopedic value contained therein was negligible. If someone wants to reintroduce one or more of the sections I deleted as polished, compelling prose, I'm all for it, but these lists are simply out of hand.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 01:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that this article is a magnet for any old rubbish that is unsourced "common knowledge", and I have long believed that unsourced local usage should be excised, with extreme prejudice, and I have done so on more occasions than I care to enumerate. However, it is my opinion (and no more than that), that notability policy applies here as elsewhere. Usage in popular culture is particularly contentious, because as new generations arise, they seem to think that their favourite tv program/group's use of the word is somehow novel. It isn't, and the article should reflect that. Ideally, there would be a project, or task force, to propel this article towards GA, if not FA status, and defend it against some of the more optimistic additions. Certainly, in popular culture (film, television, pop music, etc.) there have been notable milestones. With regard to the major removals of content, personally I would have preferred a proposal, followed by consensus; however, I do understand TFMWNCB's position. Meanwhile, leaving this here, I revert this article and open the debate, notifying those who have made major contributions in the last few months, and if necessary, will refer this to a request for comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodhullandemu (talk • contribs) 01:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried to look for policy that would indicate what to do: Trivia sections tell you that it "does not suggest removing", but rather to look at List_of_policies, which leads you to WP:OR, WP:V, and What Wikipedia is not - and then to section: Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information that does not speak to this subject at all...--Kiyarr lls ton 15:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems there has been a very intense debate in wikipedia on this very subject. see: "In popular culture" articles. I appreciated very much The Fat Man Who Never Came Back's input... I do not like the inclusion of so much unencyclopedic information (or barely encyclopedic as it may be)... I think WP:PSTS (part of WP:OR) which says "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care" and "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources."--Kiyarr lls ton 15:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Trimming
Again, this topic raises its head. OK, "in popular culture" is an unhelpful and deprecated subtitle, and as pointed out above, a magnet for any old unsourced rubbish. However, the word has a history and we should not edit out certain items on the basis that they are no longer controversial; the test should be that they were controversial, or otherwise notable, at the time. Given that some pruning has been on the agenda for some months now, this should not be taken as a licence for butchery, although surgery is appreciated. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 15:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Atonement
I'm not familiar with the proper way of editing wikipedia articles, but I just wanted to point out that "cunt" played a major role in the movie Atonement, yet it has not been added as a pop culture reference under "film" at the bottom of this article. It would be nice to update this article by adding a blurb about "cunt"'s role in the movie.
 * It is mentioned, briefly, now. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 18:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned under the novel Atonement but not in the movie section. And it probably should be mentioned there because the piece makes a point of saying that it is rarely used in mainstream cinema.
 * I haven't seen the film so I don't know to what extent it's used, or even if it's spoken. We have plenty of examples of its spoken use in historical perspective, so I remain to be convinced what gain there would be of including it in the film section. -- Rodhull andemu  23:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Tone
I have removed the inappropriate tone tag. In the past couple weeks this article has had a significant facelift. I have half a mind now to nominate it for a "good article," except that it still needs more sources. If anybody disagrees, by all means say so and even put that tag back up. But I feel that this article's tone is now totally appropriate and in keeping with Wikipedia standards, an impressive feat for such a controversial and vulgar subject. Rudy Breteler (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm working on it when I have spare time. If you can tell the vandals to go away and play for a while, I might have more time. I intend to tackle the Film section next, but GA would be a big step forwards. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 01:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Usage in Urban Scots
It's locally known that in certain dialects of Urban Scots (notably the Glasgow Patter), "cunt" can be used to indiscriminately refer to a person; usually in the third person or in certain phrases ("Any cunt kens that"). While the word can be and is frequently used in the usual offensive manner within these dialects, in this context it is purely non-offensive. This is from personal knowledge, though I'm sure a citation could be found if anyone's willing to edit. 91.125.37.91 (talk) 03:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Regional variations would be welcome but are notoriously difficult to source reliably in my experience. That's why I've had to take so much out. However, input would be welcome. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 04:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a well know usage, and has certainly been on this article in the past. It's n6 over on Wictionary: which also has a citation to literary usage (which wouldn't be hard): Trainspotting (novel): "The only problem [with heroine], at least the only principal problem is that you have to put up with all manner of cunts telling you...", "No way would I put that stuff in my veins."". Thanks/wangi (talk) 22:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Trainspotting is already cited in the "Referring to men" subsection, although not specifically for Scottish use, and more particularly with respect to the drug subculture so it may not be much use outside that. Problem with looking at Wiktionary is that I don't see any sources there, which means we can't source it here. If anyone can cite a dictionary of urban Scots language, that would help. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 22:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem of course is a reliable source, which most "online dictionaries" are not. The use in Trainspotting is in no way related to drug subculture, it's just a reflection of the larger culture. Thanks/wangi (talk) 22:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)  In East Scotland particularly  in Edinburgh (the setting of trainspotting) the word Cunt can also be used as a greeting   the word is not considered offensive in this context.

Film: The Exorcist inaccuracy and 2 omissions
There is a mistake in the reference made to the use of the word "cunt" in the 1973 film The Exorcist. There are also 2 omissions regarding the use of the word in the film.

1. Chris MacNeil (Ellen Burstyn) takes her daughter Regan (Linda Blair) to hospital for medical testing, after which the doctor notifies her of Regan's swearing while he was examining her. He then tells her "Well, specifically, Mrs. MacNeil, she advised me to keep my fingers away from her goddam cunt."

2. Burke Dennings (Jack MacGowran) does NOT address the demon at any time during the film. Rather, he addresses the butler, Karl (played by Rudolf Schündler) whilst drunk at a party, and says to him: "Cunting Hun! Bloody damn butchering Nazi pig!"

3. Later in the film, the demon-possessed Regan (Linda Blair), whilst sitting on her bed, twists her head 180 degrees so that it is facing backwards and tells her mother : "You know what she did, your cunting daughter?" Tend60 (talk) 02:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)Tend60
 * Thanks for that; that's what you get when you rely on IMDb! It's only there to show use in its time so we actually only need one reference. I'll look into a reliable source for the quotes. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 02:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 22:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The ultimate taboo???
The article states:

"The word "cunt" is generally regarded in English-speaking countries as unusable in normal public discourse as it is perceived as an ultimate taboo."

In my experience, the word is treated quite a bit more casually in England than in the United States. In England the phrase "You silly c---!" is -- to the best of my knowledge -- not particularly taboo. Comments in sections above tend to corroborate that this is also true in Australia and some other countries.

I suggest that people avoid making vast generalizations without solid evidence. Daqu (talk) 01:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You should have seen this article before I started working on it! However, feel free to contribute positively. I would regard that proposition as being supported by the BBC's list of taboo words, even after the watershed. But you and I know that common/street usage is difficult to source reliably; let it be said that if this article is ever to reach Good Article status, which it had no chance of doing before I took it on, the rubbish needs to go (and, er, it has) and it needs reliable sourcing. It's unhelpful to pick on ONE statement without seeing the vast amount of work that has gone into this article in the last six months in order to make it a defensible and worthy article. Nevertheless, the problem lies in the word "generally", which is difficult to justify, even though we both know it's true. Enough blood from me. You write it. -- Rodhull andemu  02:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know how to 'wiki', but in my lifetime of living in 5 English-speaking countries and being a native speaker myself, I have found that the idea that CUNT is an 'ultimate taboo' to be ludicrous, especially in the US. People don't say 'cunt' for the same reason they don't offer you a cup of tea- it isn't popular and would be regarded as weird before inappropriate! Fuck or shit would still be more taboo!
 * This has now been sourced. See ref to Rawson. -- Rodhull andemu  15:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it has often been stated by language experts that it is the most taboo word in U.S. English. (It was certainly the last taboo word to make its appearance in a mainstream U.S. movie, by a long shot.)  But I strongly doubt that the sources will confirm this to be the case for England and certain other English-speaking countries.Daqu (talk) 05:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel that you won't have trouble finding a source that saying that cunt is still the most taboo word in the UK  Almost - instinct 14:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the Oxford Dictionary of Slang identifies "nigger" as being the most taboo word in the UK. I agree with the original commenter that cunt isn't as offensive in the UK because it usually doesn't carry the same derogatory reference to women that it does in the U.S. - it's used to refer to males mostly, from my experience. For an online reference see John Ayto (editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Slang) in the quote below -


 * "Nigger is far more taboo than fuck or even cunt. I think if a politician were to be heard off-camera saying fuck, it would be trivial, but if he said nigger, that would be the end of his career." http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/nov/21/britishidentity.features11
 * Good point. Certainly that would be true for a politician or someone working in the media. Amongst Daily Express readers in Harrogate, say, I think the C-word would still cause the greater outrage  almost - instinct 23:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this refence, and I have now incorporated it into the article with suitable wording. -- Rodhull andemu  23:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As for politicians saying "cunt", the famously hot-tempered John McCain is reported to have been overheard by several witnesses addressing his wife as one. When asked about it, he changed the subject.  Rodparkes (talk) 01:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's in, see cunt. Jonathan Cardy (talk) 06:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed now, because of WP:BLP issues; see discussion below. -- Narsil (talk) 21:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The taboo on this word has lasted longer in American English than in any other form of the English Language. Except for a brief period in the 1950's and 1960's when "cunt" was used in rural communities to describe the vulva of a cow, this term has been considered to be extremely obscene since it reemerged in the 19th century as a form of personal abuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZStars14 (talk • contribs)

Shameless and Skins
The dramedy shows: Shameless and Skins in Channel 4 in Britain, are the only 2 shows that I know that uses the word "cunt" uncensored, which the writers wrote for the script, and they say it at least 3 times in an episode, should this be mentioned in the article?-SCB &#39;92 (talk) 15:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC) i like all the cunts in the world enit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.16.72 (talk) 13:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Famous Cunts

 * Irrelevant material redacted per WP:TALK

Seriously though, this really IS an excellent article. I do rue the fact that Richard Burton's famous line on being called a "Selt" is not included though......"It's Kelt you sunt!" (or words to that effect). ;-)

Great effort people. :-) --Phil Wardle (talk) 03:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * However, the Richard Burton quote is definitely worthy of research, because it illustrates a canted version. -- Rodhull andemu  23:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

This article needs more pictures
I think it be easier to describe the part in question if more pictures were shown of it. I find Hilter offensive, and there are LOADS of pictures on his article. 24.225.22.231 (talk) 02:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The article is about the word cunt, it's not about vaginas or vulvas per se--those two article have illustrations if you're interested. If you find the clinical yet distressingly amateurish photographs currently attached to those articles--shall we say... disappointing, email me and I can send suggest some online resources that may be closer to what you have in mind.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

International use
I feel that this article could do with a perspective on the differences in country - for instance in the UK it's has entered pub banter - it's perfectly accceptalbe to call ones male friends cunts - as much as it is to call them fuckers, with no implied or expressed sexism. It's just the latest broken taboo.
 * Whereas we all know this, finding a reliable source, which is required, is a different matter. If you have any links for this, they would be welcome, but it's not a topic likely to attract much research fundng, even in sociology. -- Rodhull andemu  01:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Minor edit
✅ Good spot.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  21:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

In the section "Usage: pre-20th century" please could someone change the link on the word "Bowdlerised" from the page Bowdler to the more relevant page Bowdlerise instead. Thanks, MikeEagling (talk) 21:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ It redirected to Thomas Bowdler anyway, and redirects are cheap; but it's fixed. -- Rodhull andemu  21:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

McCain anecdote: BLP issue?
''[As per suggestion from jehochman (talk · contribs), removing the actual description of the alleged incident, because of WP:BLP issues. Leaving this section here as a record of the discussion and consensus. -- Narsil (talk) 21:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)]''

As of yesterday, the section Cunt had a Politics section reading,

"[REDACTED: Aleged incident where McCain used the word]"

Both of the references lead to the same person, Cliff Schechter; the first is to a Raw Story article containing an excerpt from his book The Real McCain, the second is from an article on The Huffington Post describing an incident when someone asked McCain about the alleged exchange. (The Raw Deal article notes that a NEXIS search can turn up no evidence of this exchange occurring, even though it was supposedly in public; I can't find any witness accounts,

First off, I don't think this anecdote is really relevant to this article. It isn't a particularly odd, illustrative, or typical use of the word. The relevance is surely to McCain, not to the word; if he did say this, that would be noteworthy on the John McCain page, but not here.

And secondly, and more importantly--I don't think this one source is sufficient to include such an inflammatory charge. I think this runs afoul of WP:BLP--if McCain had really said something that offensive in public, I find it hard to believe that no media would cover it at the time (even in an elliptical, "McCain used foul language" kind of way), and that the story would remain completely hidden for 16 years (including a previous run for the presidency) until 2008, when it turns up in a very partisan book. Given that, I think this incident should be removed from the article until and unless a corroborating source can be found.

In the meantime, I've edited the section somewhat, adding some "allegedly"s and noting that Schecter is the only source for the incident. -- Narsil (talk) 17:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't object to that, I'm not sure what it has to do with "Politics" as such in any case. I suggest it goes, as it does not increase the reader's understanding of the usage of the word. -- Rodhull andemu  18:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Addendum: Not surprisingly, this was discussed in the McCain talk page when Schechter's book came out. (Archived here: Talk:John McCain/Archive 7) The conclusion was that the incident was too thinly-sourced; the book claims that three reporters confirmed the incident anonymously. -- Narsil (talk) 18:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Not hearing any objections to removing it, either here or over at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. The people who comment agree that if it should be mentioned at all, it should be on the John McCain page, not here. I'll remove it from this page. If anyone feels it should be mentioned on John McCain, go ahead--but you should probably read Talk:John McCain/Archive 7 and Talk:John McCain/Archive 8 first. -- Narsil (talk) 20:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Use of the word Cunt in Australia
I was reading about how the word Cunt is used in Australia, I think it's use is closer to how people will use the term Bitch in America, just Bitch alone not as in Son of a Bitch that was mentioned in the article. Like, people will say "That car is being a Bitch!" if it won't work, stuff like that. Violet yoshi (talk) 20:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Cunt aslso stand for Can't Understand Normal Thinking —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.207.12.153 (talk) 07:46, 27 September 2008

Foreign Uses In Australia, the term "cunt" is used as a positive. People refer to their friends as "mad cunts" in order to display a compliment like saying.


 * There's no doubt that the use of "cunt" is widespread in Australia, and that it has a whole constellation of meanings there. This is mentioned several times in the article, but none of the mentions include sources, and most of them are tagged because of the lack. Somebody needs to find a reliable source of information about the use of "cunt" in Australia. Lou Sander (talk) 14:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * To see a video illustrating the Aussie use of "cunt" to refer to "blokes," just watch the short film HERE. The cuntly material begins just after the singer finishes his touching little song. Lou Sander (talk) 05:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Slight addition to lead.
Sorry, but for multiple reasons, I must remain anonymous regarding this. I think that this word should specifically reference the Cleft of Venus or the more generic Pudendal cleft article. That is most specifically what people mean by literally referring to the word "cunt". So I propose this addition to the lead sentence:

Cunt (IPA:) is an English language vulgarism referring generally to the female genitalia, specifically the pudendal cleft.

This is a good faith suggestion (from a woman, if that makes any difference, but I don't think it should), not an attempt at vandalism. 71.254.7.35 (talk) 19:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ Though I used Cleft of Venus as pudendal cleft is merely a redirect.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  19:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The reason I didn't suggest that is, honestly, I have never heard of the more "culturally" influenced term "Cleft of Venus" (that one is a redirect, too, the root name of the article is Cleft of venus) until well into my adulthood (in fact from the redirect of Pudendal cleft here at WP), but I have always heard it from my preteen years as "pudendal cleft" which I think is the more clinical name (growing up it has either been one of the more obscene names, this one and "pussy" or the inaccurate "vagina").  It seems to me that the main title of the other article should be changed to "Pudendal cleft" and the "Cleft of venus" be the redirect.  But I am not willing to fight that anonymously.  Thanks, Were. 71.254.7.35 (talk) 02:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a discussion on talk:Cleft of venus about that, personally I feel not ideally qualified to comment...  Ϣere  Spiel  Chequers  08:18, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

"is routinely used as an intensifying modifier, much like fucking. "
Who the hell does that? ""Did you see the cunting he got for saying that?"" No one says that. How about a cite?
 * Reliable sourcing is always a problem with informal language. Wiktionary has a definition, but unsourced. There is an example in the article in the quote from The Exorcist. The exact quote you cite is misleading, because in my experience it's rarely used in participial or gerund form. And I'm not too sure about "routinely". -- Rodhull  andemu  22:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

First use in a film
Carnal Knowledge (1971) was not the first film to use the word in its dialogue. Two Henry Miller adaptations from the previous year do: Tropic of Cancer, directed by Joseph Strick, and an English-language Danish film, Quiet Days in Clichy. I don't know if this counts as original research as I can't point to a source other than the films themselves. The latter has been released on DVD in the UK. The former was on VHS in the USA, but has not had a DVD release. Anatedhrai (talk) 09:48, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism on this page
I just fixed a couple of tags at the beginning of the body text that referred to specific individuals' names, in the context of them being "cunts". Someone's idea of being funny, I guess. Zedweiller (talk) 06:27, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Other Uses section
Can someone fix the "[British Asian|Pakistani immigrant]] " reference in the text? 192.127.94.7 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks for pointing that out. -- Rodhull andemu  16:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Fact tag
I added a fact tag to "kut is considered far less offensive in Dutch-speaking areas than cunt is in the English speaking world". I would've removed it entirely, as I think it is incorrect and based on a misunderstanding, but perhaps there have been some surveys, and being Dutch I do not know the full extent of the English offensiveness. The imho misunderstanding is that 'kut' can be used as a swear word or modifier, similar to AmEn 'fuck'. The expression 'dat is kut' is roughly equal to 'that sucks'. However, referring to a female's genitals with 'kut' is still considered highly obscene. Jalwikip (talk) 19:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you should know! I'm going to remove the sentence altogether. pablo hablo. 21:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well my Dutch ex girlfriend assured me that it was hardly offensive at all in Dutch, but she was a rather uninhibited person. However, if 'dat is kut' is "roughly equal to 'that sucks'", then it is less offensive. Paul B (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Lots of good info here
This website looks to be a source of useful info that could be incorporated. (And before you scream at me to add it myself - I will if I have time!) --  Chzz  ►  16:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's already lusted listed in the "Further Reading" section, but if it can be used as a source for some of the weaker assertions, fine. One day, perhaps soon, this might become a Good Article. -- Rodhull andemu  01:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

That website is simply a (unauthorised) cut-and-paste of Cunt: A Cultural History, which is already included in the External Links. Please delete.

Vulgarism
We call the word a vulgarism; according to that page, the word "vulgarism" "carries cultural baggage from the outset". Does this mean that we're straying into POV territory by calling "cunt" a vulgarism? The Wednesday Island (talk) 15:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Since that linked article is completely unsourced, I wouldn't place much trust in it. Wiktionary's entries are also unsourced. However, I think we can rely on the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "coarse in manners", since that is what the article largely talks about, in a modern context. I'll add a citation if anyone thinks we really need one, but I don't think it's a POV description since we are talking about the word's denotations rather than its connotations. -- Rodhull andemu  15:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

"Cunt" on simple:
I doubt I'll get many people who know what they're talking about over there, so I'll mention it here: on simple:Cunt they claim that the word is derived from Latin and did not exist in OE. This is directly contradictory to what we say here. Are we right or are they? The Wednesday Island (talk) 18:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Simple has a community of around 10 active editors and their article has no references. This community has many, this page is heavily watched, and well-referenced. Logic suggests we are right GTD 18:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec} Well at least that article is refreshingly brief; even more so now I have removed the nonsense about "a type of music..." However, it comes down to citing a reliable source, and for Simple's purposes, any mainstream dictionary should be acceptable. Rodhull  andemu  18:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's absolute nonsense: Rothorpe (talk) 18:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC) - Well, on second glance, it does mention 'cuneus' - but then whence the T?
 * Wouldn't Grimm's law have made the word into "hunt" or something if it did come from Latin anyway? The Wednesday Island (talk) 18:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And here's the OED's view which indicates a Norse/Germanic root (and those lads have been beavering away at this for a lot longer than any of us):
 * ME. cunte, count(e), corresponding to ON. kunta (Norw., Sw. dial. kunta, Da. dial. kunte), OFris., MLG., MDu. kunte:- Gmc. *kuntõn wk. fem.; ulterior relations uncertain.
 * I find it interesting that the Latin is similar, cuneus; this is probably what gives us Spanish coño, French con, but not cunt. pablo hablo. 19:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

text removal from "Offensiveness" section
"One theory regarding why women hate this word so much is that they have no response to it. 'If a man calls a woman a 'bitch' she can usually respond by calling him an 'asshole.'  But if he calls her a 'cunt' she has no response.'"

I've removed this. Of course a woman has many choices of response to make in this situation, verbal and physical. The implication that "bitch" invites a standard reply "asshole" is misleading - it may be standard practice in some areas but it is by no means universal. And the whole shebang is unreferenced whereas this article is generally very well-sourced. pablo hablo. 11:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It appears to me that this theory is the editor's own. Unless a reliable source has discussed this theory, it should stay out. Rodhull  andemu  11:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It actually looks like a quotation but I can't track it down (haven't tried too hard - even sourced it really adds nothing) and if not the author's own it's more likely to be a one-liner from a comedian than it is to be lifted from a research paper. pablo hablo. 12:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

First Use in a Video Game
The word cunt is said during the opening of The Suffering (as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qhXaW0BJ8 at 2:11. The Suffering came out March 9, 2004, The Getaway: Black Monday, 12 November 2004.
 * We can't use YouTube as a source since it's undoubtedly a copyright violation; is there a review of this game on some reliable site that cites this? Rodhull  andemu  13:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Is the problem YouTube or it being a video? http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/thesuffering/video/6096387/the-suffering-cutscene?tag=videos;title;7
 * The problem is that any game footage (which I have seen) is copyright of its creators, so per this policy, linking to it would be a contributory breach of copyright. Surely some reliable review site or magazine will have mentioned use of the word? Rodhull  andemu  16:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

ACRONYM C.U.N.T. DEFINED:
CUNNING (artfully subtle or shrewd; crafty; sly) UNWILLING(opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory: an unwilling partner) NARCISSISTIC(excessive love or admiration of oneself, self preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem) TEASE(to irritate or provoke with persistent petty distractions, trifling raillery, or other annoyance, often in sex) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjpalacios1 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * … to what purpose? pablo hablo. 05:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Illustrations
Why is this article not illustrated?93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:24, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It is. Paul B (talk) 12:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Redirect of Cunny
At the moment, "cunny" redirects to coney - which is a disambiguation page with no mention at all of "cunt". In my head, "cunny" should probably redirect to "cunt", with a note at the top along the lines of "Cunny redirects here. For other uses, see Coney." I'm well aware of the sensitivities of certain readers, but this is an encyclopedia, and to not even signpost readers from there to this page seems a little prudish. Apologies if I'm reviving a debate that's done and dusted, but is there any compelling reason for this? There's no discussion on either of those talk pages Dom Kaos (talk) 18:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Coney used to have a discussion of cunny. It must have been deleted at some stage. Paul B (talk) 18:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Mike Hunt
Please change "The name Mike Hunt is a frequent substitute" to "The name Mike Hunt is a frequent substitute" (Mike Hunt article is for a football player). Thanks. 58.8.1.199 (talk) 14:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Whoops!. Rodhull  andemu  14:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. 58.8.1.199 (talk) 15:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Rawson
A user repeatedly tried to add the following text to Gropecunt Lane. It seems worthwhile keeping it, but not in that article &mdash; so I'll paste it here instead, for possible integration into this article:

Acoording to Rawson, "The English word has cognates in other languages, ancient and modern, including the German kunte, the French con, Old Norse kunte, Latin cunnus, and apparently the Basque kuna and the ancient Egyptian qefn-t. Its distribution suggests a link to some primordial term implying quintessential femininity, perhaps kuni, the word for wife or woman in Nostratic, the hypothetical proto-language spoken in the Middle east prior to 10,000 B.C."

Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The relervant material is already here, and the link to the disputed "Nostratic" concept is rather wild. Paul B (talk) 13:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

pop culture
the show dexter, and the band bring me the horizon have both said cunt in the show and music respectively Unsigned Person

Have they? Well, that's interesting to know. Sorry if my comment comes off as a bit rude, but it wouldn't exactly be a good idea to have a section of the article named "List of media that has used the word "cunt"", would it? --LordNecronus (talk) 00:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've already mentioned this way above. Per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, there is no need to list every use of the word unless it is somehow relevant to the topic. Whereas it has "broken the barrier" on several occasions in different media, once it has done so there seems little reason to mention subsequent mentions unless, of course, someone like Rush Limbaugh or Tipper Gore makes an issue of it. However, that sort of reaction does not seem to be happening at present, and I'd suggest that it would take a major shift in public opinion to render use of the word now controversial. Having said that, I have yet to hear Barack Obama utter the word "nigger", but if he did, I have confidence that such use would be within a carefully-considered and well-advised context, and used to make the same point that, ultimately, this article is striving for- and that is encyclopedic neutrality. Rodhull  andemu  01:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

sentiment of telling how it is universally conveyed in anglo-phone society self-contradicing in first two paragraphs
the article says:

''"it is one of the few remaining words in the English language with a genuine power to shock." ... ...When used as a slang term with a positive qualifier (good, funny, clever, etc) in countries such as Great Britain, New Zealand and Australia, it conveys a positive sense of the object or person to which it refers.[4]''

OK, so the second part obviously entails that it is losing the sentiment that the first line claims... maybe the article should find a quote saying that only recently it is becoming a non-universally offensive term beyond words such as "fuck" & "shit" which are not quite as looked down upon as 'cunt' and that 'cunt' has a use that is not so universally shocking in the anglosphere. 4.242.174.102 (talk) 10:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's actually any inherent contradiction there: the word does still have a genuine power to shock but it does not necessarily follow that every instance of its use is shocking. Like most words, its effect depends on usage, context, intent etc. When intended offensively, "cunt" is almost always more offensive than "shit", and usually more so than "fuck". However, in informal use the word "cunt" can be sometimes be used quite inoffensively even when directed towards another person, e.g. "You won how much? Jammy cunt! Your round then?" whereas I don't think anyone would be likely to call another person a "shit" unless they intended it as an insult. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 00:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Cunt Struck
Had an edit reverted. List heading was already there. Small addition for a common usage term (at least here in England). Sex-Lexis UrbanDictionary. I'd like to put it back in. Never been in a dispute over an edit so don't know what to do. PReDiToR (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really a dispute, it's just that I don't remember it being sourced. A quick look round shows that the phrase has been used in numerous situations, however, the above sources are of dubious provenance, and a cite book for this page: might be more acceptable. Uses range from Eskimo Nell to The History Boys, so it's certainly relevant enough to warrant inclusion.  Rodhull  andemu  22:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)