Talk:Curse of the ninth

Grove says
A check with my desk Grove indicates only Bruckner actually died while trying to compose a Ninth. Opus33 04:25, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * That mostly has to do with numbering controversies. Schubert's unfinished is sometimes labelled his ninth (and might have been more often so named back then). Dvorak's numbering is mixed up with three or more symphonies at one time being proclaimed as the ninth. You are quite right about Beethoven, however. - SimonP 04:59, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

27 Club
Should some mention of the 27 Club be made in the see also? It seems like a very similar pattern. 12.201.193.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC).

Atterberg
Dear Schissel,

Can I shyly ask you if you would mind having another look at your recently added sentence 'Atterberg, though he left a symphony for strings, did not number it; and his ninth is choral almost throughout.'....? I'm afraid I can't quite see what point it's meant to make in the context! Sorry if I'm being dim here; but I'm a great admirer of your efforts, and I'd like to see your thought shine clearly!

Regards, P.


 * I apologize for taking forever to answer this question. I think Atterberg may very possibly have failed to number his symphony for strings for the same reason that Mahler failed to number Das Lied, but do not know enough about him to be sure- namely, under the notion that the "curse" applied only to numbered and acknowledged symphonies.  Was probably gratuitous - of me I mean!...  to mention the choral nature of his 9th especially since it's not, I gather (I haven't heard it yet...) much like the Beethoven 9th - as might be implied by the words, "choral 9th symphony" (or even, "choral last symphony"). Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

OR
What is all this Freudian business in the last couple paragraphs about Beethoven being the father figure in the composers' Oedipus complexes? I smell "original research"--and, frankly, garbage. It's completely unencyclopedic and should be removed.


 * I agree completely. Mostly psychobabble, plus some restatement of what had already been said. The article needs some serious rewriting, possibly from scratch. Anton Mravcek 23:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten it, almost from scratch, trying to preserve all the facts in the previous version but getting rid of all those statements with exclamation marks. One exception: I did not mention Glenn Branca. The article on him is tagged as factually disputed. Dmetric 21:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Mozart and Haydn
I was pretty surprised that Mozart and Haydn were not mentioned. I put them in the article as examples to go against the existence of the curse. Academic Challenger 10:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't. Before Beethoven, writing a symphony wasn't a big deal. After, it was. So, for those who believe in such things, the curse started with Beethoven. Anton Mravcek 19:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Haydn and Mozart both wrote symphonies of increasing depth and complexity, but for the most part an 18th century symphony was meant to be a relatively light and entertaining piece of music. If a composer wanted to do something to really impress an audience he'd write music for the church.--Saxophobia 22:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, it started with Beethoven, so why isn't that pointed out in the first sentence? Now he's just mentioned as someone among the other composers, which he shouldn't. Revan ltrl (talk) 00:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Interwiki nl?
Easy enough to guess when a biography, but I'll need help with this one - should 9e Symfonie-syndroom be interwiki'd here? Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say yes. "syndroom" is probably not quite the same as "malédiction" but it's obvious that both articles list composers who wrote more than nine Symphonies. Dmetric 18:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Malédiction is the French for curse. I don't speak Dutch but using German I can guess the topics are essentially the same. Keriluamox 19:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't speak Dutch either. I think we should wait until a Dutch-speaking Wikipedian confirms this, no matter how sure we may be from our knowledge of other languages. Anton Mravcek 22:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a little late, since it's already interwiki'd, but as a native speaker I can confirm that the article is indeed about the same subject. Whether it's a syndrome or a curse is something Dutch wikipedia should figure out. SQB 13:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Shostokovich's 9th and Stalin
The recently added paragraph on Shostokovich's Ninth Symphony in relation to Stalin's regime all sounds like a truth that any lazy concert program notes writer would fall back on. For that reason we must question those statements and see if we can find citations for them. Anton Mravcek 17:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I’ve got something in a… French political science review, in an issue about music and politics two years ago. There’s an article about Shostakovich’s symphonies in the context of Soviet politics, there’s nothing about the Beethoven and Mahler quotes but the part about the context seems quite right. Does it qualify as a citation? I can translate the useful paragraph if you like. Keriluamox 00:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, please, if it's not too much trouble. Just as long as we don't take Volkov's Testimony as gospel truth. Anton Mravcek 17:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, here’s the quotation :
 * After the war, the mood changes on each side. What could be expected from the composer in 1945? A triumph song would obviously succeed the expression of pains. But where is victory in the 9th symphony? The expected colossus is not there, and, on the contrary, the main traits are shortness, classicism, joyfulness almost up to buffoonery, elusive lyricism and rather satyrical ellipsises. Disappointment for the nationalists; dismay for the stalinians. “The statue of a dwarf in front of the greatness of victory”, an official critic says. Although the incoming wave of persecution goes far beyond Shostokavich’s case, it is not surprising that he will be one of the targets of the campaign against formalist artists that will surge in the following years.
 * Delannoi, Gil (2004): "Portait politique en musique". Raisons politiques. Études de pensée politique, No. 14, pp. 68–69. Now perhaps we should have a look at a Shostak biography to get another reference. Keriluamox 14:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * After the war, the mood changes on each side. What could be expected from the composer in 1945? A triumph song would obviously succeed the expression of pains. But where is victory in the 9th symphony? The expected colossus is not there, and, on the contrary, the main traits are shortness, classicism, joyfulness almost up to buffoonery, elusive lyricism and rather satyrical ellipsises. Disappointment for the nationalists; dismay for the stalinians. “The statue of a dwarf in front of the greatness of victory”, an official critic says. Although the incoming wave of persecution goes far beyond Shostokavich’s case, it is not surprising that he will be one of the targets of the campaign against formalist artists that will surge in the following years.
 * Delannoi, Gil (2004): "Portait politique en musique". Raisons politiques. Études de pensée politique, No. 14, pp. 68–69. Now perhaps we should have a look at a Shostak biography to get another reference. Keriluamox 14:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. I'll be going to the library later today for the Shosty bio. Anton Mravcek 17:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Should we add him?
According to the artical on Vaughan Williams, he only made nine symphonies. Perhaps we should add him to this artical as one of the people who have "fallen to the curse."


 * This article already mentions him. Fifth paragraph. Anton Mravcek 20:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

OR again
I added the OR tag again. While there are some real sources cited, and perhaps this is a good topic for an article, as it stands it quite clearly meets the definition of original research: a number of sources and concepts have been synthesized by a third party (i.e. the editors of this page) into a new concept. Can you cite a reliable source that uses the term "curse of the ninth" and applies it consistently to the composers mentioned here? Can you rewrite parts of the article to get rid of the "according to some"s and the "from X's point of view" and so on? -Apollo58 17:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, this concept was NOT "synthesized by the editors of this page." If you want to blame a group of people for this, blame orchestra PR departments (for example, the season the DSO played five famous Ninths). We can rewrite this, but speaking just for myself, not today. Anton Mravcek 21:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes it is. Maybe I'm not being clear.  The fact that people in the music world acknowledge a phenomenon of ninth symphonies, and that many composers wrote 9 and 9 only, and that many 9th symphonies are particularly well known, does not ipso facto mean there is a "curse of the ninth."  The orchestra PR departments you cite - do you have literature from them that identifies this phenomenon, describes it, defines it, preferably using the term "curse of the ninth?  if not, this remains original research exactly as I describe in the paragraph above.  Furthermore, I don't know why you removed the fact tags I added, because each one was added next to a WP:WEASEL word or unsourced claim.  If you want me to go tag by tag and explain why I added them, I will.  -Apollo58 01:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh and what's the DSO? I'm not familiar with that abbreviation-Apollo58 01:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Could be the Dallas Symphony Orchestra, or maybe Detroit. Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 18:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant Detroit, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Dallas programme notes talk about this if they've played the Mahler Ninth or Tenth, or Lied von der Erde. Anton Mravcek 21:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I would advocate deleting the entire section titled "Exceptions." It can be reduced to a single sentence: "The exceptions are all the composers who have written more than 9 symphonies."  Why do we need this entire paragraph talking about Shostakovich that is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand?  Why do we need a laundry list of all the composers who wrote 10 or more symphonies?  Why not a section on composers who wrote 8 or less?  It's a symptom of the larger issue, namely writing an article based on supposition, popular opinion, and creative interpretation rather than actual, cold, hard sources.  When the Grove has an article on the "curse of the ninth," I will gladly support this one. -Apollo58 01:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should nominate the entire article for deletion rather than slapping on a tag that scarcely applies. Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 18:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. It sounds like you ought to start an AFD. Anton Mravcek 21:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Mozart
Mozart Wrote 41 symphonies, not 60. Change that please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.8.172 (talk) 03:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * See List of compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Keriluamox 16:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This keeps being changed back to 41, and the trouble is that you can get a lot of numbers depending on what you think counts as a symphony and how much you are willing to accept the authenticity of some doubtful works, so I have changed it to read "around 50 to 70" (and it may even surpass either of these limits, though probably not by a lot; I think you can only get 70 by counting all the early opera overtures, often titled Sinfonia). Double sharp (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Eine Symphonie für Tenor-Stimme, Contralt -Stimme und große Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte")
wth? --euyyn (talk) 09:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * = Das Lied von der Erde Double sharp (talk) 16:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Mahler
The case of Mahler always strikes me as not fitting into the Curse, although his story is relevant. He deliberately did not number Das Lied von der Erde as "Symphony No. 9", but he considered it a symphony nonetheless, just as Tchaikovsky considered Manfred one of his symphonies. Therefore, he completed 10 symphonies, and died during the writing of his 11th symphony, "Symphony No. 10". Either he beat the curse by his strategy, or he didn't. My reading is that he beat it. True, he didn't finish 10 numbered symphonies, but the Curse was not just about numbered symphonies, but about all symphonies. Most stories about the Curse of the Ninth talk about Mahler's ruse, and then lump him in with the others who didn't get past #9. But he did get past #9. Thoughts? -- JackofOz (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The key quote from Schoenberg about Mahler and the supposed "limit" is, I think, from some kind of funeral eulogy in 1911; Schoenberg, who was a personal friend of Mahler's, would have known about GM's 9th numbered symphony (first performed in 1912). More importantly, Schoenberg doesn't really express any kind of solid belief in a curse (and doesn't use the word curse either). It's more of a metaphor, a figure of speech to express the bold aspirations of Mahler and the line of composers from Beethoven and onwards that Mahler seemed to fulfil. Invoking the figure of "nine symphonies" to a throng of people steeped in classical music in Vienna in 1911 would instantly evoke the likes of Beethoven and Bruckner, and by saying "he who has composed a ninth is too close to the otherworldly" Schoenberg is creating a nice piece of graveside oratory that fuses grief over the loss and pride in the man and his aspirations. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any clasical musicians of stature who have sincerely beiieved in this "curse". 83.254.150.36 (talk) 09:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Honestly, Mahler "got past the curse" by being extremely liberal in his definition of "symphony". If not for his labelling them as such, I would have considered the Eighth a cantata and Das Lied a song-cycle. After all, while both are as tightly constructed as symphonies, I think you could say about the same of the Kindertotenlieder too. Double sharp (talk) 23:58, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

John Lennon?
How is John Lennon relevant at all to this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slackbassist (talk • contribs) 22:39, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Wagner
Is it worth mentioning that Wagner composed nine major operas (or ten, depending on how you count Das Rheingold)? There is the anecdote of some Mr. Förster who supposedly said "Someone who composed something like this [Parsifal] will die soon", similar to the thinking of this "curse".

2003:DC:FF27:111B:F83D:124D:CF96:1B4F (talk) 06:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Vaughan Williams
I always thought VW numbered his 9th symphony in E minor the better so as not to have it confused with his 6th symphony in E minor; didn't know that he started numbering them earlier (no.8). Interesting. (But yes, clear from Worldcat that the published score has "No.8.", and the 1968 reprint of Antartica has "No.7" added it seems, etc. ...) Interesting. Thanks. Schissel | Sound the Note! 22:15, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Removed unsourced content
I went ahead and removed most of the content in the article, due to it being unsourced, and likely WP:OR. Please feel free to restore it if you have a source. In the meantime, I'll try to find sources and improve the article with verifiability. Mcguy15 (talk, contribs) 13:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Useful sources
Mcguy15 (talk, contribs) 13:38, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
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