Talk:Custard

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Likewise, Pastry Creme is not Custard and Should Not Redirect Thereto
Pastry creme (cream), which is essentially the English for "creme patissiere", is not only NOT the same thing as custard (not even the same thing as creme patissiere, actually) - but the term includes large-scale commercial recipes that do not even contain any dairy product at all but are manufactured from corn syrup; as well as smaller scale varieties based on vegetable shortening.

The "creme filling" in Hostess Twinkies, Cup Cakes, Ho-Ho's, and so on, is an example of the corn syrup-based artificial pastry creme. Amusement parks, such as Cedar Point in Sandusky, Ohio, often sell filled doughnuts with what they call "Bavarian creme" (which, in true form, *is* a custard) but which is actually a thicker, fluffy version of the same corn syrup based "creme" used by Hostess, Little Debbie, Dolley Madison, and other snack cake brands. Or sometimes this 'faux' Bavarian creme is the shortening-based "creme" filling.

The downtown bakery in my hometown of Milan, Michigan used the latter variety for creme-filled long Johns (filled bar doughnuts) and creme-filled eclairs. (They also did custard-filled long Johns but the creme-filled were much more popular.) This product contains the same ingredients as the basic icing used for cake decorating - a simple recipe of powdered sugar and vegetable shortening, typically flavoured with either vanilla, almond or lemon extract. But whereas the icing is designed for spreadability, the "creme" version uses less shortening and is whipped to a fluffy consistency. The same type of 'faux' pastry creme can also be made using butter instead of shortening, basically as a lighter, fluffier version of butter frosting - used as a creme filling.

Real pastry creme, by contrast, is stiffly whipped cream, typically flavoured with high quality vanilla extract and sweetened with powdered sugar - the cornstarch used in powdered sugar (to prevent caking and crystalisation) helping to stabilise the creme, by absorbing liquid as it slowly collapses over time (which, in turn, elminates the "starchy" taste associated with uncooked powdered sugar; butter vegetable shortening has the same effect of neutralising the starchy taste). This is filling typically used in creme puffs and creme-filled eclairs (which use the same pastry as creme puffs but in a different shape; and the original eclair is made with a custard or Bavarian creme filling, not a pastry creme filling).

Some bakers will co-mingle the real pastry creme with a corn syrup- or shortening-based variety, which makes the latter taste better while giving the former a longer shelf life. Otherwise, back in Milan, we knew the creme-filled long johns were not made with "real" pastry cream because the creme was fluffy and light at room temperature on a hot summer day (and, of course, frosting dressed up to look like whipped cream never tastes like whipped cream). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.56.198 (talk) 07:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * As a pastry chef myself, I can definitely say that "custard" and "creme patissiere" are NOT the same and they are not used interchangeably. Their preparations are similar, but have distinct differences.  Custard and its variations are simply cream and/or milk, sugar, vanilla flavouring of some sort, and egg yolks.  When cooked at too high a temperature it will invariably curdle and cannot be saved.  The variation of egg yolks leads to different end products such as creme brulee or creme anglaise, which aren't similar in their thicknesses.  Creme patissiere contains the exact same ingredients with the addition some sort of starch which stabilises the mixture and prevents curdling.  Thus it can be brought to a boil which thickens the mixture and cooks out any raw starch taste.  Creme patissiere is much thicker than any custard and can even be piped, in addition it is rarely eaten on its own and is mostly used as a filling.  Thus, creme patissiere should not re-direct to custard since they are distinct end-products with different preparations. 37.8.170.128 (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Creme patissiere
Creme patissiere and Custard are not the same thing, anyone who has ever made both will know this and will agree then, that Creme patissiere should not redirect to Custard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.18.14 (talk) 21:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Differentiation
The previous version of this article didn't distinguish between custard (thickened only with egg) and pastry cream (thickened with both egg and starch). It also seems to include blancmange as a kind of custard though it includes no egg at all, but is thickened with starch (which would make it a pudding), or with gelatin. My American and French references (McGee, Larousse Gastronomique, Kamman), and for that matter the OED all agree that custard does not contain starch. Nonetheless,  I will assume that this is an English idiosyncracy, and so I have left it in.--Macrakis 22:55, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Custard science
i was watching the new show Brainiac on G4 yesturday, and they claimed to have a man that could walk on the delicious dessert delight. After filling a swimming pool with custard that had been made in cement mixers, the man WALKED ON THE CUSTARD! Custard is normally a goo-like liquidy dessert, but when starch is used in the mixture, the custard changes. When the custard is at rest it retains its gooey, liquid traits, but when force or sudden pressure is applied, the custard becomes a solid. Thus if you take sudden, jerking steps you can, in fact, walk across custard as if you were some sort of custard jesus. (excuse the analogy) There is some sort of term for liquids that behave like solids when force is applied. if anyone knows this, please tell me. sept.3, 2005 --Samus

The word is 'thixotropic'.

I saw that programme. What they were using was not custard, just a mixture of custard powder and cold water in the right quantities. It is the cornstarch in British custard powder that makes it behave that way (see the description of a Non-Newtonian fluid). If you actually made the 'custard' properly (i.e . cooked it so the starch absorbed the water and the granules became properly gelated) I do not believe it would behave like this. So I don't think this bit of 'trivia' really belongs on this page. In fact, 'custard powder' probably deserves a page by itself because what you make from it is not custard in the true sense. It has no eggs - only the cornstarch thickens it. It is really just a sweetened white sauce with yellow colouring. --Rich 08:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The current article already says:
 * Instant and ready-made 'custards' are also marketed, though they are not true custards if they are not thickened with egg. See Bird's Custard, for instance.
 * If there are other brands, I suppose it would be worthwhile having a page on custard powders. --Macrakis 17:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the custard "science", since it is totally misleading (that is to say, not true). ::Didactylos 22:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to close out this discussion, note that some time ago I added a section on "physical properties" which discusses both the properties of cooked egg custard and the properties of an uncooked suspension of custard powder. This should answer questions about "walking on custard". --Macrakis 19:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

History?
I would like to know more about the history of custard -- who first used it, how long ago, and how it differed from the form we know today. Does anyone have any information on this? 81.79.56.85 13:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Thixotropic?
"Thixotropic" was the first word that came to mind to me, too...but it means just the opposite of what you're looking for. It means a gel-like substance that temporarily liquifies under stress. (Ketchup is a good example...if you shake the bottle first, it pours.) I found one web page that claimed that "Isotropic" had the meaning you are looking for, but definitions of "isotropic" from other sources failed to back this up.Ormewood 23:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The word you are looking for is "rheopectic". (unsigned comment by Ormewood 20 October 2008)


 * No, as the article says, cooked custard is thixotropic (gets less viscous as you stir it); uncooked starch (including custard powder) suspended in water in the right proportions is dilatant (gets more viscous as you stir it); and neither is rheopectic (q.v.). --macrakis (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean non newtonian. 19:24 (DAN) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.225.95 (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thixotropic, dilatant, and rheopectic are three different kinds of non-Newtonian flow. Follow the links above for more info. --Macrakis (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Separate DAB line
I put a separate dab for Bird's Custard back in; reason being that in the UK, this *is* what most people mean by "custard". Thus it's likely that (a) Many people will search for "custard" when they had the Bird's type in mind, and (b) They may not even realise that there's a difference.

I believe that it's better to point this out (very briefly) at the start, rather than expecting them to read through an article which doesn't actually cover what they were looking for. It's even possible that unless they read to the end, they may be misled into thinking that the Bird's type is egg-based. Fourohfour 14:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

DAB rewrite
I rewrote Macrakis's rewrite of the dab
 * This article focuses on true custards, thickened with egg. For imitation custards thickened with starch, see Bird's Custard.

Yes, I know that starch is more general than cornflour (AKA cornstarch, same thing, different name). Unless powdered custards are being made with other forms of starch, why be less precise? The "imitation" wording is kind of loaded and may be misleading; in Britain, "custard" refers more often to the cornflour-based version anyway, it's not really meant as an "imitation".

I've rewritten it again to avoid it being misleading, but to remove the problems above. Fourohfour 20:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your collaboration.

Birds Custard Powder apparently uses only cornflour as thickener,, but the instant variety is made with an unspecified "modified starch" as well as other thickeners (sodium carboxy methyl cellulose, carrageenan). I don't know what other brands do.

I'm not quite sure what to do about the terminology. To my mind, if it doesn't have eggs, it isn't custard (see references to various cookbooks and reference books above). And Bird's surely was an imitation originally -- Bird's goal, according to the story, was to imitate egg-based custard without the eggs his wife couldn't tolerate. (By the way, I wonder if we have solid sources for this story, or if it was just made up as a way to make a cheap substitute acceptable to the market....) But I guess there's been semantic drift in the UK/Commonwealth.... I haven't been able to find a legal definition of "custard" for those jurisdictions, but it appears that "custard powder" is starch-based (not egg-based). Interestingly, the regulations prohibit the use of the word "egg" or of pictures of eggs on the label to avoid misleading people....

Perhaps we should have an article on "custard powder" separate from that on Bird's. There are other brands now.... --Macrakis 22:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't find a US "Standard of Identity" for custard, but the standard of identity for frozen custard does require egg content. I suspect (but am not certain) that it would be considered fraudulent to sell "custard" (as opposed to "custard powder") in the US that did not contain eggs. --Macrakis 22:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No doubt; as you said yourself, the "custard powder" type of custard is probably a UK/Commonwealth thing. Anyway, I rewrote the dab to simply mention "custard powder", which is probably enough. Fourohfour 10:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

crème anglaise
Got rid of "confusingly called crème anglaise" at the beginning as

A) I don't believe it is confusing.

B) Consistency. No mention of confusion is made of the Italian name, which is also "English Cream"  --garryq 12:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone apparently changed the original wording, which was "confusingly called simply crème" (which makes it sound like dairy cream) to "confusingly called crème anglaise", which of course made nonsense of the comment. I have corrected it. --Macrakis 18:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

pudding, puddink
In quite a few languages (notably Eastern European and American 'English') custard seems to be known as "pudding" or a local phonetic approximation thereof. Does anyone else find this curious and is there a significant explaination? Confusion over the meaning of the word "pudding", perhaps a shortening of "custard pudding" into "pudding" rather than "custard" occured somewhere in trade history? This is one of those little linguistic things that's always puzzled me. --JamesTheNumberless 15:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the issue is here. Custard is a kind of pudding thickened with egg.  The confusion goes the other way, too: in the UK, they refer to a kind of pudding thickened with starch as "custard" (see discussion of Bird's Custard -- which is not an egg custard, but a starch pudding -- above). --Macrakis 16:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Granted there are many definitions of pudding but for how long has the definition of pudding which includes custard, been in existance, and which came first? That fact that bird's is not a true custard does not explain why in some cultures, true custard is called pudding - who decided that custard was a type of pudding? --JamesTheNumberless 14:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Pudding is a very broad term. OED says:
 * A preparation of food of a soft or moderately firm consistency, in which the ingredients, animal or vegetable, are either mingled in a farinaceous basis (chiefly of flour), or are enclosed in a farinaceous ‘crust’ (cf. DUMPLING), and cooked by boiling or steaming. Preparations of batter, milk and eggs, rice, sago, tapioca, and other farinaceous substances, suitably seasoned, and cooked by baking, are now also called puddings.
 * The earliest use (connecting this with 1 [pudding = a kind of sausage/haggis]) apparently implied the boiling of the composition in a bag or cloth (pudding-bag or -cloth), as is still often done; but the term has been extended to similar preparations otherwise boiled or steamed, and finally to things baked, so that its meaning and application are now rather indefinite.
 * So apparently "pudding" started as a kind of sausage, then developed into anything cooked in a bag (like a sausage casing), then as OED says "its meaning and application are now rather indefinite." OED's earliest quote for sweet pudding (as opposed to meat-based), in 1544, includes eggs (though it also includes breadcrumbs etc.).  Not clear when you get puddings which are custards (i.e. liquids thickened only with egg, and no flour, breadcrumbs, etc.).  What was the question? --Macrakis 15:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, all very interesting. That confirms what I know about the original use of the term and confirms that it is used in a modern sense to describe a substance like Bird's, however, it doesn't really answer my question, maybe I wasn't that clear. the OED states: "Preparations of batter, milk and eggs, rice, sago, tapioca, and other farinaceous substances, suitably seasoned, and cooked by baking, are now also called puddings." - what I'm curious about is how they came to be called puddings, how the (typically Northern) British usage to mean "dessert" in general came about (and is it responsible for the wider - yet still distinct - definition of pudding), and whether custard is known in many countries as "pudding" because of either of those factors. OED does confirm that rice pudding, chocolate pudding, tapioca pudding, sticky toffee pudding ect. ect. haven't always been called puddings. "pudding" is present in many foreign languages as a loan word from English, with the specific meaning of "custard" and I'm curious about how, and when, it got there. I'm fascinated by pudding because it's such a difficult word to explain to foreign speakers who know it only as custard. Perhaps I should copy this on the pudding talk page. --JamesTheNumberless 09:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please recall that Talk pages are not for general discussion about the topic, but about improving the article. If you find WP:Reliable sources on these topics, please add what you learn to the relevant articles.  --Macrakis 17:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well actually the discussion is relevant, as the page is kinda unclear about it's definition of a custard at a moment. It even includes Blancmange as an example, which as it doesn't use eggs, isn't a custard. A section explaining or clarifying the distinction between a pudding (a very general term in english) and a custard (a very specific term in english) would actually benefit the article greatly.24.190.34.219 (talk) 06:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * In Rio, we call it "Pudim" - we got a lot of desserts (is this the right british word? or is it the american one?) from the english influence, due to portugal - england relations during the colonial age. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.137.236 (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, in America, what we usually call "custard" is often known elsewhere as "flan" or "custard flan". And what we call "dessert" is called "pudding" in Britain, Ireland and many Commonwealth countries - as in the child's question, "What's for pudding?" and the adult's answer, "Treacle tart and ice cream"; which in American English would be, "What's for dessert?" and "Sugar pie and ice cream". The term dessert is used in Britain and Ireland to indicate a fruit course (e.g., a plate of fruit and cheese at the end of a meal), or a fruit item served for pudding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.56.198 (talk) 07:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Never heard so much rubbish in my life. In the UK, pudding and dessert are both almost completely synonymous, except for things such as black pudding (which is not a pudding in the dessert sense).  For example: Rice pudding could quite easily be called a dessert, and fruit jelly and ice cream could quite easily be called pudding.--62.249.233.80 (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Savory Sauces
Proper preparation of Hollandaise and Bearnaise sauces rely on cooking egg-yolks properly, such that the sauce emulsifies, much like a custard. It seems the primary difference is that these sauces do not employ any milk or dairy products. However, Allemande sauces (closely related to Hollandaise and Bearnaise,) usually do contain cream as an ingredient. Would these sauces somehow qualify as custards? Caen 00:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, they are using eggs as emulsifiers of water/fat mixtures, so there may be some physico-chemical similarity. But as far as culinary terminology goes, I don't think anyone would call mayonnaise (uncooked) or Hollandaise (cooked) sauce a kind of custard. --Macrakis 01:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

walking on custard
why is the term "Walking on Custard" misleading? Hypnoticmonkey 23:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

As the article says, what is actually being walked on is "A suspension of uncooked imitation custard powder", so it is (a) not custard because it is not cooked (and therefore doesn't have the texture of custard), (b) made of imitation custard powder, which isn't really custard (no eggs), and (less relevantly, I suppose) (c) not especially true of custard, but of other starch suspensions as well. --Macrakis 14:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In some countries, the "imitation" custard made from powder *is* what is generally considered to be "custard".
 * That having been said, it's somewhat academic- I agree that the *uncooked* powder/milk/whatever mixture couldn't actually be considered "custard" by *any* reasonable definition. Fourohfour 19:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Custard" is not "crème anglaise" in french
Sorry, but I'm French and custard doesn't mean "crème anglaise". In french "custard" is translated as "crème patissière". And plus "crème anglaise" ("English cream") doens't come from England but deffinitily from France. We the French call this liquid cream "crème anglaise" because of the main dessert in which we use it : "îles flottantes" (floating islands). The Islands are the white of the egg mixed with sugar and forming a floating sweet mass in the middle of a cup full of "crème anglaise". So why the cream should be called "english" ? because of the floating white mass, which represent the british islands in the middle of a sea... of cream (lol). That's the real reason, "crème anglaise" is only english on its name and no on its origin, thanks for reading. 343KKT Kintaro (talk) 15:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Crème patissière is one particular kind of custard, the kind that is used for filling patisseries. The kind you eat by itself is, if I'm not mistaken, simply called crème, which is of course very ambiguous if it's not qualified. See the French wikipedia page Crèmes pour pâtisserie. As for the story about crème anglaise and îles flottantes is charming, but doesn't seem likely. Do you have a WP:Reliable source for it? --macrakis (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * As Crème pâtissière explains, it contains flour, and is therefore not a true custard. On the other hand Creme_anglaise explains that it is made with milk, eggs, sugar and vanilla. That is a custard. Globbet (talk) 00:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this is just classic French culinary chauvinism that nothing good can possibly come from England. It's called English Cream for a reason: because it's custard. The fact that it may be thinner than classic English custard is neither here nor there - my gran made far runnier custard than some of the "creme anglaise" I've had in France.Gymnophoria (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Setting temperature not given
I came here to find the setting temperature for custard. The article says there's a 3-5º range between setting and curdling but the actual temps on either side aren't given, if someone knows what they are it should go in the article. Thanks. Meltyman (talk) 14:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Temperature of the custard must not rise above 189–193°F (87–90°C) or it curdles and the texture is spoiled.24.190.34.219 (talk) 05:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Blancmange is not actually a custard
The intro uses it as an example, but Blancmange isn't actually a custard. Blancmange in it's traditional and almost all modern recipes doesn't call for eggs.24.190.34.219 (talk) 05:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Thixotropic vs dilatant, reference changed to "unknown episode"
User Unforgettableid has removed a link to a Youtube video that purported to show someone walking on uncooked starch. The relevant span of two edits:. Unforgettableid has asserted the reference "seems" like a copyvio in one of the two edit summaries:. Perhaps so, perhaps not so, I don't know, but one of the URLs given in support of his/her edit leads to a 404 error (external) page. Anyway, it seems to me that a citation or reference to an "unknown episode" is not a reference at all, it's more like a non-reference. Additionally, the link of the numbered reference in the reference section itself goes to the wikipedia page for the show, that link also exists in the text, thus it's also redundant. I wanted to query others regarding their thoughts about the matter. Personally, I'd be in favor of deleting the reference, and possibly replacing it with "citation needed". Gzuufy (talk) 18:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Almond cream
The article currently reads:
 * Custard was known in English cuisine at least as early as the fourteenth century. The first reference is as almond milk or almond cream. In a history of the Abbey of Croyland, England Laurence Chateres in 1413. It contained almonds, thick milk, water, salt and sugar. It is supposed by a Henry T Riley in a Notes and Queries that a 'proper' custard cannot be made without almonds.

The given ingredients show that this was not a custard in the modern sense (milk and eggs thickened by heat), so I don't see its relevance to this article. --Macrakis (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Doctor Who
That a Doctor Who scriptwriter picked the common dessert component of "custard" as an amusing ingredient for a running joke doesn't give the reader any insight into the article subject. We get a little more insight from a similar reference in the Jammie Dodgers article, because Jammie Dodgers are a more obscure foodstuff with no other context for how culturally prominent they are, but custard is just custard. It dates back to the middle ages. We could dig up a hundred British TV references to it. --McGeddon (talk) 09:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge Creme Anglaise with this page
Creme anglaise is merely the French name for custard, there seems little point having two articles on the same thing particularly when the Creme Anglaise article is quite short and largely repeats what's written here. Gymnophoria (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok since no-one seems to disagree, I'll consider this resolved?Gymnophoria (talk) 12:20, 31 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Crème anglaise is a distinct dessert sauce and keeping the articles separate would benefit Wikipedia's readers more than combining them. NorthAmerica1000 02:26, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 12:34, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Custard powder
A discussion about creating a new article about is underway at talk:Bird's Custard which is the current target of the redirect. -- 65.94.171.217 (talk) 11:54, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Order sections
in your recent edits, you changed the order of the sections from Lead - Variants - Uses - Physical-chemical properties - Chemistry to the order Lead - Chemistry - Variants - Uses - Physical-chemical properties - History. Your edit comments don't say why.

I prefer something closer to the previous order for several reasons: Looking over the article as a whole, I'd think that it should be Lead - Variants - Uses - Chemistry and Physics (one section combining the two former sections). Not quite sure where History belongs. Maybe just after Lead or just after Uses, but certainly before Chemistry and Physics. --Macrakis (talk) 22:26, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a culinary article, and most readers will be interested in the varieties of custard more than in its chemistry.
 * The sections on Chemistry and Physical-chemical properties really should be adjacent to each other, in fact they probably ought to be merged into one section.
 * Most food articles seem to start with Etymology and History before they delve into details. I'm not sure that's the best structure, but I do think that they're of more general interest than Chemistry.
 * Really? I don't remember moving it. I may have gotten mixed up I was trying to combine the Chemistry and Physics sections.Cornsimpel (talk) 01:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

"Egg custard" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Egg custard and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 28 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. eviolite  (talk)  16:27, 28 November 2022 (UTC)