Talk:Cy Young/GA1

GA Review
This review is transcluded from Talk:Cy Young/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hello. I will be doing the GA review for this article. I've just skimmed the article for now, so here are my initial concerns/suggestions: That's it for now. I'll allow seven days for these initial improvements, and then I will make more specific ones (if everything is addressed). Nikki 311  01:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Cy young.jpg needs a caption.✅Added caption
 * I would merge the last two paragraphs of the lead together. They are both rather short, and they both deal with his baseball legacy.✅Merged
 * Also, the lead is currently dedicated to listing all of his achievements, which isn't really the purpose of the lead. A lead is supposed to summarize all the main points of the article, so I think some more general information about his baseball career might be important. You could mention the different leagues or teams he has played for, or more about his early career.✅ Added a paragraph about the teams he played for.
 * The "Move to the American League" section is a glorified timeline. A lot of the sentences/paragraphs begin with "In (date)". The sentences are also short and choppy. Merge together paragraphs that have similar topics (like the two about the perfect game).✅Merged
 * "August 6, 1890" - this is against the MoS. Either link both parts or neither (and make it consistent throughout the article)✅Fixed links
 * I've added some citation needed tags to facts that I believe need a citation. All records and "firsts" need to be cited.
 * "The only other pitcher with more than 300 career losses is Pud Galvin." - seems like trivia✅Removed
 * The article needs some pretty heavy copyediting for grammar, punctuation, and MoS errors.
 * The web references need to be formatted with Template:cite web, including dates, authors, publishers, and accessdates.✅Added
 * The quote box looks awkward at the end and is creating un-needed white space...can't it be moved into the text (with the text wrapping around it)?✅Moved


 * You're getting carried away with the "fact" tags. You've added them to things that are explained in the very next sentence or are explained in the links. For example, questioning that he threw the first pitch in the World Series? Well, the Pirates were the visiting team and they batted first, and Young was the home team pitcher for the complete game, so by definition he threw the first pitch. That fact is indicated in the sentence preceding your fact tag. Do you really need an entire paragraph explaining that minutia? However, you missed the fact that it was the first modern World Series. The "first pitch in World Series history" occurred in 1882 or 1884, depending on how you define it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you didn't bother responding, I removed some of the needless citations. Many of the others are obtainable from the official record books, and I'll look them up when I get the chance. Most of them will come from the 2008 edition of the Elias Book of Baseball Records. Elias is the official statistician of MLB and hence the official source. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I detect an attitude, which is making less willing to continue to review this article. Claims like the above need citations. If the surrounding information is what proves it, then it needs to be referenced, as well. Nikki  311  17:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I detect an attitude on your part as well. So I'm done with it, and you can look this stuff up yourself. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, OK, here are some citations. This group includes baseball-reference.com; retrosheet.org; The SABR Baseball List and Record Book, by SABR, 2007; and the 2008 edition of The Elias Book of Baseball Records, by the Elias Sports Bureau, the official statistician of MLB and several other sports. Here's what I've got so far: Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 76 career shutouts, fourth most in history >>> SABR (p.205)
 * Won at least 30 games in a season five times, with ten other seasons of 20+ wins >>> Easily observable from career stats.
 * By the end of his rookie season, Young had established himself as the ace of the Spiders >>> His rookie season was 1890, when he was 9-7 with a 3.47. Thus it's a very questionable statement.
 * I'd remove that statement unless a source can be found explicitly calling him that. Neutral point of view. Nikki  311  02:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In his first year in the American League, Young ... led the league in wins, strikeouts and ERA, thus earning the colloquial Triple Crown for Pitchers >>> Easily observable from career stats.
 * Young set major league records for both the most consecutive scoreless innings pitched, and for the most consecutive innings without allowing a hit; the latter record still stands at 24.1 innings, or 73 hitless batters >>> Most Hitless Innings, Consecutive, Season - 24, Cy Young, April 25 - May 11, 1904. (Elias, p.76) - Note that fractional innings are not considered when computing scoreless innings. Baseball-Reference and Retrosheet still pick it up.
 * September 22, 1911, Young shut out the Pittsburgh Pirates, 1-0, for his last career victory. In his final start, the last eight batters of Young's career combined to hit a triple, four singles and three doubles. >>> That's two separate thoughts. The final game was October 6, 1911. Both games are covered in Retrosheet.   Young's final game has play-by-play.  I question the need for the minutia of what the batters did to him in his final game. If he could still pitch consistently, he would have played in 1912.
 * Walter Johnson broke Young's career record for strikeouts >>> Young ranks 33rd, with only a couple of contemporaries ahead of him, Mathewson and Johnson. Who surpassed him first is not stated, although Johnson is well ahead of both of them overall. SABR (p.210)
 * Although Young threw over 400 innings in each of his first four full seasons, he did not lead his league until 1902. He had 40 or more complete games nine times. Young also led his league in strikeouts twice (with 140 in 1896, and 158 in 1901), and in shutouts nine times >>> You had just one fact tag after all of that. Are you looking for each item individually?
 * Yes. Any stats or records should be sourced. Nikki  311  02:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Although the WHIP ratio was not calculated until well after Young's death, Young was the retroactive league leader in this category seven times, and was second or third another seven times >>> That's not an official stat, it's a SABR invention. This Baseball Reference page ranks all the yearly leaders, and Young is shown as the leader 7 times. His second-or-third rankings are state explicitly on his own baseball-reference page. He finished second twice and third 5 times.
 * Those sources look good to me. Replies to two. Nikki  311  02:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I got the note on my talk page saying that everything has been finished. I'll do a second look later and copyedit where needed. Nikki 311  17:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Round 2
I've done the copyedit. Here are some things I noticed while I was doing it: Don't give up, the article is getting much closer to passing. Nikki 311  20:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Therefore, in 1890, Young signed for $500 with the Cleveland Spiders, a team which had moved up from the American Association to the National League the previous year." - is there a citation for that amount of money? if not...you can just remove "for $500" and it'll be fine.✅ Removed "for $500"
 * "After his wife died, Young tried several jobs." - is there any interesting jobs he did worthy of noting?✅ There really were no jobs that were either interesting or notable, so it is done.
 * Who are John and Ruth Benedum? Friends?✅ They were friends, so added that in the article.
 * "Young is also credited his off season farming chores, including wood chopping, keeping his pitching strength in good shape until he was 44. Even at the time of his retirement, his arm was healthy. Young, however, had gained weight and was unable to field his position anymore. In three of his last four years, he was the oldest player in the league." - cite for any of this?✅ Rewrote paragraph. Two citations in the new paragraph.
 * The poem seems like random trivia to me. Is it particularly important or famous? If not, I think the article would be better off without it.
 * To pass the breadth requirement, there needs to be more info on his personal life. Did he have brothers or sisters? When and how did he meet his wife? If they had children, they should be mentioned. Why did he quit his formal education after the 6th grade? Stuff like that would be interesting to note.✅ Added "Personal Life" section. I also expanded the early life section greatly.


 * The Ogden Nash poem covers 26 ballplayers and the portion pertaining to each is in their respective articles. Nash was a famous poet, and I think it's kind of nifty. It summarizes the attitude of a famous author who was also a baseball fan. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay. I was just checking. Maybe a little explanation in the text would make it seem less random to someone unfamiliar with the poem. Nikki  311  21:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The footnote links to the Baseball Almanac page that has the entire poem. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Those personal facts all sound kind of familiar, especially the part about some couple taking him under their wing in his later years. I recall seeing an article about Cy Young awhile back, but I can't recall if it was from a SABR publication or if it was in Sports Illustrated. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Result
Great work guys! I've cleaned up the new additions because they were a little wordy, and I combined the personal life and after baseball sections as they were relatively short. The article looks much better, and I've decided to pass the article. Congratulations on a GA! Nikki  311  19:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Trouble
"Robba Young died in 1933, 25 years before Cy Young died." He died in 1955, not 1958. But I don't which of the first two facts is wrong. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I fixed it. It was actually my error. I took 1955-1933, but somehow I got 25. It is actually 22.-- LAA Fan  15:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)