Talk:Cyanide/Archive 1

A minor factual discrepancy
If you take a look at and particularly section 1.9.2.4 you will find that it is stated clearly that cyanide does NOT bind more strongly to methemoglobin ("Cyanide is more strongly drawn to methemoglobin than to the cytochrome oxidase of the cells, effectively pulling the cyanide off the cells and onto the methemoglobin.") It is due to the higher quantity of methemoglobin. -- Villahj Ideeut 04:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

General
I'm going to put this in talk so people can understand this clearly. I worked on heme proteins (and for that matter cyanide) well over ten years in graduate school and through a couple postdocs. Cyanide is a deadly compound because of its effects on ferric heme proteins. It doesn't bind especially well to ferrous heme proteins (that's carbon monoxide that does so). Cutting off cytochrome c oxidase, which cyanide does very well, will shut off aerobic metabolism, and because of the rise in concentration of metabolic intermediates, eventually shut down all anaerobic metabolism as well.

Hemoglobin is a ferrous heme protein. One therapy for cyanide poisoning is to convert part of the hemoglobin in the blood to the ferric form, to provide a pool for internal cyanide and dilute the poison. That therapy would be useless if cyanide preferentially bound to the ferrous form of hemoproteins.dwmyers

I'm not really stalking you, Bryan. Two queries. (1) I didn't really understand the vitamin B13 sentence-can this be clarified. the second (2) I thought, possibly incorrectly, that almond oil was extrcated from sweet almonds? jimfbleak 06:59, 6 June 2003 (UTC)

When was cyanide first discovered/created
The article seems to lack dates for the discovery/creation of the specific types of cyanide. Does anybody have a source for them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.80.129 (talk) 01:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

How fast can cyanide kill?
Cyanide's toxicity is well-known. I'm under the impression that a small amount of the stuff is enough to kill an adult person in seconds. It seems rather weird, though, so is it true? One imagines the suicide pills mentioned in the article would have to be pretty quick. -- Kizor 23:38, 9 February 2005 (UTC)
 * Seconds is a bit of an exageration for mortality. A few minutes seems the consensus, although loss of consciousness would be quicker and maybe as little as 30 seconds for a lethal dose of hydrogen cyanide gas. Physchim62 09:32, 3 June 2005 (UTC)
 * I have removed loss of conciousness awaiting sources that cyanide causes unconciousness before death. --mc
 * Coma and syncope are listed as possible consequences of cyanide poisoning in the ATSDR reference that's already listed in the article. AxelBoldt 15:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules are that we need an article from a peer-reviewed journal. --mc

That is not correct, but I agree that such an article would be a welcome addition to our references list. AxelBoldt 17:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the claim that cyanide causes rapid unconciousness because of absence of citations. Wikipedia requires a peer-reviewed journal or an academic book from a reputable publisher:


 * Reputable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications.

from No_original_research.

Also, the presence of mitochondrias is not an indication of a particular effect, because cells can do anaerobic combustion. --mc

The policy says we need a reference to a reputable publication; the list of reputable publishers given above is not meant to be exhaustive, as indicated by the term "include". A publication on a website maintained by the CDC, written by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, an agency of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is clearly reputable.
 * I have seen no mention of rapid unconciousness at the link you have provided above. --mc

But I don't think we should discuss the subtleties of policies here, that's besides the point. What is the real reason that you don't want to have rapid unconciousness mentioned? Does it have something to do with the death penalty, or the Holocaust? AxelBoldt 01:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * WP:AGF and no. --mc
 * I think it's more of a philosophical point... IMHO, apart from gunshot wounds to the head, most if not all forms of death involve unconsciousness as an immediately anterior state. The French sources I have added are quite categorical about it: convulsive coma then death. I feel that it is up to mc to provide sources that state that cyanide causes "instant" death without a passage through a comatose state. Physchim62 (talk) 12:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not claimed that cyanide causes instant death. I have left the coma in last time. I have not seen sources that unconciousness arrives quickly. --mc

I am not persuaded that the struggling of cyanide poisonning subjects is a convulsive coma. I have found indications to the contrary on the internet, which I shall not cite since they are not peer-reviewed. I believe that the sources which mention convulsive might be copying a rumor. I want to remove convulsive from the article. --mc


 * I still don't get what you're up to. First it's all about citeable sources, and now we are supposed to remove information found in numerous citeable sources based on unciteable internet rumours? Please simply state what your agenda here is, so that we can put it in the article in an NPOV fashion rather than dancing around it like this. AxelBoldt 02:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Convulsions are widely reported as a common feature of cyanosis (see, for example, the INRS references), but not as a universal symptom. Again, you seem to be raising points which are more philosophical that truely descriptive. This is a peer-reviewed source on the toxicity of cyanides, This is the current CDC case definition. Physchim62 (talk) 18:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

This doesn't exactly belong here, but is somehwat related.. : The introduction currently says:" Those that can release the cyanide ion CN− are highly toxic to animals. " I guess pretty much anything that is toxic to animals in general, can also be said to be toxic to humans. Also in this case the toxicity should be out of question (and is also confirmed in reference(3) - http://www.cyanidecode.org/cyanide_environmental.php ) --78.52.205.28 (talk) 00:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Cyanide glasses
I believe that one of the 10 spies named by CIA mole Aldrich Ames used a cyanide pill hidden in a compartment in the frame to kill himself before being tortured by his Soviet officials. I don't recall the man's name, and this was mentioned in Discovery's SpyTek show (I have the 2 cassette set). Calyth 18:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Extraction of plant toxins
Needlees to say that cyanide is one of many deadly toxins present in the yew (taxus baccata) im trying to do as much background reasearch on the levels of toxcisity present in the seeds of a yew tree. I have 2 questions my first is how does one (non comercially) extract cyanide or cyanide salt from a seed? My second question is other then the bitter almond smell how else can it be detected to be present in a substance?
 * Eat it, your stomach will do the extraction for you.
 * An equimolar mixture of iron(II) and iron(III) ions in solution will give a deep blue colour (Prussian blue) in the presence of cyanide ions. Physchim62 07:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Chemical equations aren't right
The chemical equations on this page are not mass nor charged balanced.

If someone wrote something like this on their homework or test, I doubt they would even receive partial credit.

I don't mean to diss the content on the page, but come on! We're talking about freshman chemistry, here.
 * Thanks for pointing out the opportunity for improvement! Please Be bold in updating pages while you correct factual problems like those when you find them. Also, what does "diss" mean? --Amoore 04:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * In fact the norm in organic chemistry is not to balance equations, look at any copy of the Journal of Organic Chemistry or any sophomore book. However you are right in a sense, because the norm is also to write the reagents above/below the arrow as in this example; this can't be done easily in Wikipedia at present, hence the "error."  I will try to write up something tonight to fix it.  Thanks for mentioning it, Walkerma 17:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Use in photography?
Saw a bottle of solid cyanide powder in a camera shop (IDR if it was of the sodium or potassium variety, but it did have a Kodak™ label and I was surprised just the same to see it). What role does it have in developing, processing, or printing film? knoodelhed 09:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It is used to form gold cyanide, which precipitates fine particles of gold during certain printing techniques: in effect, it is a handy way of forming a soluble form of gold. See also Love in the Time of Cholera by Gabriel Garcia Marquez where one of the characters (a photographer) commits suicide using gold cyanide. Physchim62 (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Suggested sub-page
Can I suggest we move the second half of the article to List of people killed through cyanide or something similar? It's valuable information, but it deserves to be linked from this article, not actually included in it. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 15:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"Cyanide ions are released ..."
From "Cyanide", subsection "suicide" we read "Cyanide salts are sometimes used as fast-acting suicide devices. When they reach the stomach acids, cyanide ions are released; therefore they work faster on an empty stomach."

Well, chemists know that this statement is incorrect: salts release their ions in the act of dissolving. My guess is that an empty stomach is hastens death because of the lack of dilution. I also dont know if those poisoned burp HCN, which would make sense except that HCN is probably highly soluble in water. I couldnt find an HCN entry.--Smokefoot 00:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It could also be the binding of cyanide onto certain foodstuffs, notably sugars (the Rasputin story). To find HCN, you should look under hydrogen cyanide ;) Physchim62 (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea, a key question is whether cyanohydrins form from sugars and HCN, and whether they are less toxic than HCN itself.--Smokefoot 01:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

What is this article for?
There is very little chemistry in this article. I think a decision is needed about the purpose of it. What would a reader expect? Alan Pascoe 22:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well there's also a KCN article, an NaCN stub, an HCN thing too. Lots of redundancy and non-correlation and urban and suburban legends. These chemical articles do invite lots of non-chemists to chime in, which I think is healthy so long as they can handle the facts. --Smokefoot 01:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think a reader would expect an overview of the chemistry of the anion, i.e. those reactions which are typical to the cyanide anion rather tha to a particular compound. The article should also contain a discussion of its role as a ligand, and of its toxicology (as both of these are relatively general). It's true that we are having difficulty assembling guidelines for inorganic anion articles, and that most of them are not up to scratch at the moment: all comments are welcome. Physchim62 (talk) 01:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Nitrate/nitrite
There is a lot of confusion around about amyl nitrate vs amyl nitrite. For instance, this FAS fact sheet uses both words in two separate 'treatment' sections. This leads me to believe that sources available on the web may not be very reliable on this point; are there any editors with a solid enough health-and-safety background to check that this article's references to both are correct? (And if they are chemically similar enough to be discussed interchangeably, that itself ought to be stated.) --Calair 02:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Measurability and natural occurrence
Hello what values for cyanides are measurable?! This means how low can one go. Is there a diffenrence for measurability between water and solid substances. What is the natural occurrence of cyanides? What are normal values of cyanides for building materials? 198.54.202.82 (talk) 10:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Taste of cyanide
I reverted an edit referring to this story about a man's suicide note revealing the taste of cyanide for the first time because that story doesn't seem very reliable. There are several cases of people who have survived after ingesting KCN (this document, for instance, records a man who recovered after swallowing 3 grams), so there's no obvious reason why it would take a suicide note to reveal what it tastes like. --Calair 06:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

While reading this article, I came across these two seemingly conflicting statements:

--
 * The most usual route of absorption is by inhalation of hydrogen cyanide gas, which can be formed from alkaline cyanides and certain complex cyanides by the action of acid. Hydrogen cyanide poisoning is also common as a result of smoke inhalation after house fires.


 * Ingestion is equally dangerous, although this route of absorption is usually deliberate (suicidal or criminal). Absorption through the skin is also possible, though rare.

--

--
 * Britain's Health and Safety Executive(HSE) has recommended against the use of solutions A and B because of their limited shelf life, potential to cause iron poisoning, and limited applicability (effective only in cases of cyanide ingestion, whereas the main modes of poisoning are inhalation and skin contact)

--

In the first one, it is said that absorption through skin is rare. Compared two the other two, I would think absorption would be the rarest of the 3.

Then it states that the main modes of poisoning are inhalation and skin contact. Which is it?

SLATE 19:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You will find that Wiki-Chem articles are heavily contributed to by well intentioned folks who are more likely to share safety information and anecdotes than technical content that requires actual knowledge of the underlying chemistry and biochemistry. Its the old problem of people wanting to talk even if they dont know what they are talking about.  For this reason, safety information should be treated with skepticism and one should simply to go to the MSDS sheet that is usually cited. Also for this reason, the accumulation of safety comments require periodic cleaning.  This accumulation of almost random anecdotes and warnings is one of the weaknesses of the WE-chem project, IMHO. --Smokefoot 20:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

image
I removed the following from the introduction to the article, it was left there by an anon a few days ago, and belongs here.:
 * NOTE: The valence-bond structure to the right is incorrect; there should be a lone pair of electrons on the nitrogen as well as on the carbon. Perhaps someone else knows how to correct the image.

I don't know if that's correct or not, but it certainly doesn't belong on the article's page. --Storkk 11:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Martin Bormann
.. didn't die of cyanide poisoning. I suggest this link be removed, concurrent with your own article on Bormann. In Anthony Beevor's book "Berlin", Bormann is stated as perhaps "the only high ranking Nazi official to die from an enemy bullet". This was after Artur Axmann's account of the escape from the bunker that is actually used on your Bormann page. 81.77.191.234 23:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)anon

Fishing Neutrality
"Many fish caught in this fashion die immediately, or in shipping. Those that survive to find their way into pet stores often die from shock, or from massive digestive damage. The high concentrations of cyanide on reefs so harvested has also resulted in cases of cyanide poisoning among local fishermen and their families, not to mention irreversible damage to the coral reefs themselves and other animals in the area." This seems a little "emotional" if you know what I mean? I'm not saying it's not necessarily true, but it needs to be written with the proper "encyclopedic style", and citations would be nice too. I'm not sure if this is neautrality? I may have used the wrong header? I'm not sure, if you think this goes under a different heading feel free to change it (from NPOV to whatever). Qberty 05:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont see how it is considered "emotional" that cyanide fishing causes harm to fishermen and their families through poisioning. it seems rather straightfoward to me. if you REALLY think pointing out facts is not neutral, change the article instead of posting a silly nomination. Marshy0 01:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

yes sir *bow* forgive me Qberty 10:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

csi refference
in the csi episode where abby smells cyanide gas she doesnt colapse, she drops to the floorthen the other agent(timothy) drags her when he finds out why she droped(stupid and geeky ot say but its true ^_^)--Hicups0002 11:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * They is alot of stuff in CSI that isn't true useing it as a refernce isn't a good idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeking16 (talk • contribs) 12:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's NCIS, not CSI, and she didn't collapse from the cyanide...she tripped because she was bolting for the door in high heels. The actual cyanide exposure they had was too short to do any harm, thanks to the nose...and if you want to go geeky, the Director warned Abby about the dangers of heels at the very beginning of the episode. Neat foreshadowing, eh? --205.209.72.144 (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

cyanides vs nitriles

 * A cyanide is any chemical compound that contains the cyano group R-C≡N

The nitrile article suggests that nitrile is the preferred term for organic compounds with this group (and for the -C≡N group itself in those compounds). The IUPAC definition of cyanide from that article's external links includes organic compounds, so I'm not sure what's what here. Anyway it might be a good idea to mention nitriles in the lead paragraph.--Eloil 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * IUPAC goldbook definition of nitrile
 * IUPAC goldbook definition of cyanide

The IUPAC encourages the use of the definition of nitrile when dealing with organic derivatives of CN. In the lab, we call MeCN acetonitrile, and not methyl cyanide. In fact, you will see that cyanide anion and nitriles share some similar chemical reactions, but have different properties. Look in any organic synthesis book. A way of estabilishing the difference between the two is to think of the nitriles as the nitrogen analog of aldehydes, while the cyanide anion is the nitrogen analog of carbon monoxide (they are isoelectronic, strong ligands and kill in similar ways). Indeed, nitriles should be mentioned, as well the differences between the cyanide anion and nitrile group. Dr.Rezaf 00:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions
occurence vitamin B12, cyanocobalamine; this is the manipulatable form used by the human body. After incorporation in emzyme cyanide is metabolized off to activate enzyme.

properties yes, I've smelled it too often. "Lighter than air"? Its MW is 27 cf N2 28 and H2O 18: it eddys out of fume hoods. CN chemically behaves as a pseudo-halogen; derived from NC-CN cyanogen. The CN anion is iso-electronic with nitrogen molecule, N2, and carbon monoxide, (-)CO(+). CN bonding includes back donation from CN pi orbitals to d orbitals on element bound to. This splits higher energy orbitals and increases bonding order. There is rotational spectra attributable to -CN to -NC transition. HCN is easily oxidized by oxygen, halogens, and hypochlorite. Concentrated CN compounds readily polymerize: HCN to triazine, H2N-CN to melamine, ClCN to 246trichlorotriazine.

usage - personally analyzed baths, QC consulting or specified plating The largest use of cyanide is still metal plating, although acid plating has made some inroads on protective plating, and sulfite and nitrite baths for precious metals. Alkaline cyanide baths are used for copper, zinc, brass, silver, jewelry gold. Acid cyanide gold for hard gold plating. Re: gold mining, the cyanide solution does oxidize. But to cyanate or cyanogen?

Synthesis (soph organic) 2 benzaldehyde > CN catalyst > Benzil though now lab uses vitamin B1, carbanion of thiamine -S-C=N- on imidazole ring. Reaction of cyanide and aldehyde (or ketone if R' = H) is R-CH=O + HCN <> R-CH(CN)-OH >hydrolysis> R-CHOH-CO2H. Reaction occurs albeit slower using KOH and K3Fe(CN)6, note rotation of CN. Aniline + KOH + CHCl3 >> Phen-NC: isonitrile which does have cyanide toxicity and binding similar to carbon monoxide. Alkyl halides and K4Fe(CN)6 >> Alkyl isonitriles stink.

Toxicity Sodium ferrocyanide passes through the body. Apparently Au(CN)2 complex is also quite stable. Guy where I worked tried to commit suicide by drinking 4 Oz of 2%gold cyanide bath. Died 2 days later but not from cyanide poisoning. Cyanide is absorbed thru skin (doesn't need DMSO), its on the container. Its rapidly absorbed thru mucous membranes, ie mouth or suppositories. If you swallow the capsule its gotta dissolve and gets delayed because intestinal absorbtion blood flow goes thru liver first. Good mention on fast metabolism of cyanide. But death seems VERY quick at executions, so apparently the poison gets to Cyt.c fast. One breath and forty heartbeats later. "Rhodanese (thiosulfate-cyanide sulfurtransferase) is the naturally-occurring cyanide-detoxifying enzyme. Although the availability of sulfane sulfur is the rate-limiting factor, studies in dogs have indicated that there is enough rhodanese present in the normal liver and muscle tissue to detoxify about 500 grams of cyanide." Thiocyanate in high doses is administered to prevent red blood cells from "sickling".

LD50 for cyanide is 0.5 mg/Kgm body wt.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad61.htm http://www.inchem.org/documents/antidote/antidote/ant02.htm#PartNumber:4

Shjacks45 07:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Links:
 * This article should link to the salts article. 03:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC) User:98.27.162.211

New article on "cyanide poisoning"
I propose to start a new article that could be a more suitable home for the many entries this article recieves on poisoing in fact and fiction.--Smokefoot 17:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good idea. And then count the days, weeks or months until someone suggests merging them. Still a good idea, though. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree too. As long as you don't create it as a "Cyanide in popular culture", I don't think there will be a problem. I would move the whole Toxicity, Poison Use, and In fiction sections there and leave short summaries here. As a precedent we do have a separate alcohol for Alcohol poisoning (well, actually it redirects to Effects of alcohol on the body). --Itub 15:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I kind of like the title "Cyanide in popular culture" or "Deadly poisons in popular culture". It has kind of a dark humor aspect to it. I wouldn't be fighting for that title, though. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, but the problem is that any article that seems to be of the "in popular culture" sort is soon nominated for deletion. --Itub 09:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Cyanide Vs. CO
Though CO and Cyanide are both strong ligands why do they proceed in two parallel routes in their mechanism for poisoning the human body? --Curieous 05:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just saying "strong ligand" doesn't say much. Different ligands have different affinities for different metals and oxidation states. I'm no expert on this, but apparently, CO has more affinity for Fe(II) as found in hemoglobin, while CN- has more affinity for Cytochrome c oxidase, which sometimes has Fe(III). --Itub 09:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

British spelling also valid
Why the gratuitous US-centric change? It seems close to vandalism. P.M.Lawrence 203.194.54.228 01:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I edit this page a lot but I dont think that I made any sweeping changes with "US-gratuitous-ness" in mind. So far as I am concerned, you can rebritishify the spelling.  Various pages are in different dialects, and I think that the policy here (to the extent anyone is really watching) is that whatever dialect was started in a given article, stays.  I also am attentive of the US-centricness taking over the world and all that, but it turns out that most active editors in the chem area are probably not US-centric.  So there is probably not any kind of conspiracy here.  At least that I can detect. The best way to change things is to start a new chemistry article in the british dialect.  We need one on vanadyl sulphate, by the way.--Smokefoot 01:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Taking Cyanide
Could someone tell me what happens when Cyanide is eaten? --70.110.11.59 (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Pluto Saver

You die a painful death like Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.72.92 (talk) 00:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Depends on the dose, but the person who eats it will probably die. See cyanide poisoning. --Itub (talk) 12:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Cyanogen?
From my research, other forms of Cyanide include Calcium cyanide [Ca(CN)2], copper cyanide [CuCN], Cyanogen [NC-CN], and cyanogen chloride [CNCL]. However, there isn't anything here about Cyanogen, so might someone more knowledgeable be able to tell me the difference between Cyanogen and Cyanide? 67.60.187.161 (talk) 19:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There's an article on cyanogen that gives details. Likewise for CuCN and ClCN but not yet Ca(CN)2.


 * Ben (talk) 20:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

"gas chambers" using cyanide

 * There certainly is nothing legitimate to support this allegation of cyanide being used in "Nazi gas chambers". If a valid source for this can be found (and I'm sure it won't be), it can be reinstated. Until then it needs to go. This makes the entire article look illegitimate. You guys need to cite sources, not just make stuff up off the top of your heads, whether they are covered by a yamaka or not. 03:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC) User:98.209.242.99
 * See references at Zyklon B. Biscuittin (talk) 19:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Mining section needs some work
Previous authors have stipulated NaCN requirements for leaching of gold and silver ore, but no citation was provided. Further, there is inconsistency with units (kg/tonne vs kg/ton). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jglink (talk • contribs) 16:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Another famous case
Richard the Iceman Kuklinski also used Cyanide to murder some of his victims... He found that it was harder to trace —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.98.212 (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The case of Dr Douglas McGlashan Kelley
Dr Kelley served as psychiatrist prior to the Nuremberg trial in 1945. He committed suicide by ingesting a capsule of potassium cyanide on New Year's Day 1958 as did Goering on 15 October 1946 and Hitler on 30 April 1945. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icar36 (talk • contribs) 09:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Merge/reorganize
Do we need three separate articles: Cyanide, Cyano radical, Nitrile? Please discuss. Biscuittin (talk) 19:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we do. The properties of the ion, the functional group, and the radical are completely different and there's enough to be said about each one to treat them as different topics. Would you put alcohols and hydroxides on the same article? ;-) --Itub (talk) 13:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Triple bond
In the first paragraph, 'triple-bonded' should point to triple bond instead of Chemical bond. Thx. 209.215.73.231 (talk) 13:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Concerning Jonestown
I think that the residents of Jonestown should not be included in the suicide group, as it wasn't exactly voluntary (ie. Murder) 02:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC) The Crippster (talk)

Alan Turing
I am sure Alan Turing died of Strichnene poisoning not Cyanide, can someone please help confirm and make sure this page is correct? Thanks. 82.20.209.63 (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it was cyanide. S  B Harris 03:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

making
Cyanide is the granddaddy of synthetic poisons. Easily made from common chemicals, cyanide is used as is for poisoning bullets and food, and is used in the making of Hydrogen Cyanide, Cyanogen Chloride, Tabun, and numerous other poison gases. A dose as small as 50 milligrams (ingested) can kill an adult man. Of course, the more the better. To make cyanide, you must first make ferrocyanide. This can either be made, or preferably, bought. Ferrocyanide Preparation Ferrocyanide is obtained by heating 10 parts (by weight) potassium (or sodium) carbonate; 10 parts coke. cinders, or coal; and 3 parts iron turnings, all in coarse powder. to a full red heat in an open crucible, stirring occasionally until small jets of purple flame arc no longer seen. When cool, the soluble matter is dissolved out of it, the solution filtered, evaporated, and crystallized. The crystals obtained are redissolved in hot water and cooled very slowly, forming large yellow crystals of the ferrocyanide. In order to obtain a pure form, melt dried ferrocyanide in a glass vessel and let cool, dissolve the fused mass in water, neutralize any excess of alkali with acetic acid (vinegar), and precipitate the salt by adding strong alcohol to the solution. Wash the precipitate with a little weak alcohol, redissolve it in water, and crystallize. Sodium Ferrocyanide (Na4Fe(CN)6-10H2O, FW 484.07, mp 82C, CAS# 13601-19-9, AKA Yellow Prussiate of Soda) can be ordered quite cheaply from www.sciencealliance.com. Catalog #s and prices are: C7435-100 100g $4.12, C7435-500 500g $8.96. And there's no hazardous shipping fees for it either. Cyanide costs about $47 a pound plus $15 hazardous. Cyanide Preparation To convert the ferro to cyanide do this (please note that these instructions were for the potassium not sodium salt. I'm assuming that the ratios are similar for both); Mix thoroughly 8 parts of dry sodium ferrocyanide and 3 parts dry sodium carbonate (pool pH adjuster), heat them in a steel container (cleaned oil filter can works nicely), with constant stirring (use clothes hanger, straightened out), with a propane torch or other intense heat source till it melts into a clear liquid. Heating is continued until the mix no longer fizzes and the fluid portion is colorless. After a few minutes rest, to allow the contents to settle, the clear portion is poured from the heavy black sediment (iron) at the bottom at the bottom of the crucible and onto to a clean slab or steel bowl. It's then broken up while still warm and stored in airtight bottles. This will be almost pure cyanide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickjonnes (talk • contribs) 06:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Cyanide poisoning from plastics on fire and also, from bitter almonds & the antihypertensive medicine nitroprusside! Antidotes do exist!
Cyanide poisoning may be deadly in minutes. Many people die on fires when they breath cyanide from smoke, especially from plastic materials. Cyanide poisoning may also occur from consumption of bitter almonds and from overdose of the drug nitroprussade! Antidotes for cyanide poisoning do exist and include hydroxocobalamin (a form of vitamin B12!) and also amyl nitrite(administered by inhalation), sodium nitrite, and sodium thiosulfate.688dim (talk) 22:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Typo
In section Toxicity, Antidote the following phrase occurs: "bind to the antidote rather that the enzyme)." -- "that" should read "than". 193.60.10.38 (talk) 10:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Also typo/error in opening paragraph: " the pit of the cherry". -- "pit" should read "pip" or more commonly "stone" when discussing cherries. 91.125.150.74 (talk) 17:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

LD100
What is the LD-100 (lethal dose at which point 100% of the subjects die) of (pure) cyanide? P.S. is this link just CN? How can one have just CN? I thought CN was an ion...
 * LD100 values do not have much meaning as there is always variability in the reaction of individauls to different poisons: this is notoriously true of cyanides. Quoted LD50 values for potassium cyanide are 5–10 mg/kg for rodents. The IDLH (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) value is 25 mg/m3 (measured as cyanide, source NIOSH (US)). Physchim62 10:54, 3 June 2005 (UTC)
 * The "Cyanide standard solution" that you cite will of course contain a counter-ion to ensure its electrical neutrality, doubtless either sodium or potassium. Physchim62 10:54, 3 June 2005 (UTC)

LD is appropriate for single-pulse oral consumption (one dose). Toxicity and lethality depends upon the route of entry into the body, duration, and concentration. The terms are Permissible Exposure Level (PEL), Time Weighted Average (TWA), Threshold Limit Value (TLV), and Drinking Water Exposure Level (DWEL). Some of these are supposed to be identified in the Material Safety Data Sheet. The 8 hour workplace exposure limit (PEL) is 10 ppm for inhalation, but injury can occur well below this level. The drinking water limit (DWEL) is between 0.2 and 2.0 mg/L, which is also unreliable. Toxicity has a dietary dependency involving vitamin B12 and vitamin B17, which complicates the situation. I hope this finds everyone well. Best regards. Nanoatzin (talk) 04:39, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Antidote
The article does not mention about amyl nitrate being the antidote. Does anyone have any information regarding how soon after exposure to cyanide that amyl nitrate would be affective? Thank you
 * Amyl nitrite is not strictly an antidote. It is used as first aid, as it can be given my non-medically qualified people, while waiting for a doctor to arrive and administer an intravenous antidote. As amyl nitrite is inhaled, it would only be effective while the victim is still breathing, say during the first five minutes after acute poisoning (in any case, as soon as possible). Having said that, there is some debate as to whether amyl nitrate is effective at all (see the HSE link on the article page). Physchim62 09:29, 3 June 2005 (UTC)

Nice point. It is true that amyl nitrate is a concentrated source of oxygen, but it wears off very fast, so amyl nitrate is pointless unless it is administered continuously at the same time as an oral or intravenous antidote. It could be used to restore consciousness if you know for a fact that the problem is caused by cyanide. Amyl nitrate is a recreational intoxicant that can cause oxygen poisoning, so it might be a bad idea to mentioned this in the main article without a reference that includes a specific antidote kit. That might encourage teen-agers to do something irresponsible. A kit with enough amyl nitrate to last an hour and a breathing mask would need to include either pills or syringe with something like cobalamin for something practical. You would need medical training to know how and when to use this kind of thing without injuring someone. Cyanide needs to be metabolized into something that can exit the body via urine, and amyl nitrate does not satisfy that criteria by itself. Treatment needs to begin immediately for heavy exposure regardless. This kind of thing seems more appropriate for storage next to the atropine syringe and antibiotics on the shelf used to hold paraphernalia you might need when the chemical/biological warfare siren goes off. Oxygen you would find in a hospital emergency room or ambulance should work just as good. Best regards. Nanoatzin (talk) 04:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Ivenho Co of CANADA in Monywa, Burma
As far as I know, Cyanide compound is banned in mining. But Ivenho Co of Canada use it in their mine in Monywa, Burma.

Just want the world to know it.

PP

Cyanide is used during mining to extract gold. Not banned. Much safer for the environment than mercury extraction. Does pose some risks for mine operators. Essential to produce sufficient precious metals for microelectronics and corrosion resistant electronic connectors. Cyanide has many uses associated with heavy metals. Nanoatzin (talk) 05:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Enibrety?
"At doses insufficient to cause rapid loss of consciousness, the most widely reported symptoms are vertigo, enibrety, confusion and a feeling of tightness around the chest." -- "Enibrety" appears not to be a word. --200.141.119.254 (talk) 07:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, thanks, the word is inebriety, meaning drunkenness, intoxication. AxelBoldt 07:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide#Mining in text it says about NaKN and in the reaction it is KCN. Could you specify which one is used (I think both)and the differences / frequency / advantages? Thanks. Cos07 (talk) 14:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The word is inebriety, and this means intoxication or ataxia (difficulty maintaining balance). Difficulty maintaining balance and slurred speech occurs shortly before loss of consciousness following cyanide exposure. This is an acute symptom (i.e.: an ambulance should be called). Cyanide inhalation causes asphyxiation by interfering Krebs cycle and hemoglobin. Antidote is required immediately to reduce injury. Symptoms are the same as for excessive carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide exposure. Standard oxygen saturation tests used by hospitals are misleading. Dissolved arterial/venous blood gas needs to be evaluated. Subsequent nerve damage may take 24 hours to 7 years to manifest after medical treatment. Nanoatzin (talk) 04:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Onion smell?
My chemistry teacher said he was "almost killed" in a lab accident involving cyanide, and said it smelled like fried onions. Does this sound right?
 * Well, smells are of course subjective. HCN or hydrogen cyanide smells like bitter almonds but about 50% of the population cannot smell it. I am one of them who cannot smell cyanide. --Xenofonos 00:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Almonds and catalytic converter emissions contain cyanide. That is what it smells like.Nanoatzin (talk) 05:25, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * In popular culture the person who drinks the poisoned cup of tea laced with cyanide often says "Hmm, this tea tastes like almonds." See Roald Dahl's story "The Landlady" and the Jodie Foster movie "The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane". Muzilon (talk) 12:53, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Scent
As everyone's sense of "scent" (smell) varys, it is impossible to discount that someone may interpret the odor in that way. As it is clearly documented that it is somewhat rare for people to even notice the odor, and less the ability to encounter the odor and be able to place the scent... granted, being involved in an experiment with the substance, having an incident, and then encountering the scent clearly affords the person the link the two directly and definitively (though I would contend, an altering of the pure form scent would occur in the small controlled environment with limited sample for experiment in a school lab over full scale releases).

However, this seems to be more a matter of semantics... as to what you actually relate the smell to as an equivalance. ie onions as opposed to almonds. Though the correct, and accepted definition is ALMOND - since the cyanide can be directly linked to the nut. I would expect others with more definitive scientific background to weigh in, but believe they would mention the same issue of "individual smell ability." --JosephLenard 07:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Question.... read somewhere that NASA had their astronauts carry a pill of KCN "just in case things turned wrong" at least in the 60s.

Trying to verify this ok?

About half the population lack the ability to smell cyanide. Minor genetic difference like skin and eye color. Nanoatzin (talk) 05:26, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Overlap with cyanide poisoning?
There's an entire article devoted to this topic. Is it not sufficient to summarize that article (WP:SUMMARYSTYLE) as a section here? We can avoid duplication of effort, and we can talk about other (perhaps historically-) important uses of cyanide like electroplating and hydrometallurgy, and other interesting facets like coordination chemistry. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 03:13, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that there is currently a large and unnecessary overlap. Most of the current content of the Toxicity section should be moved to or merged with cyanide poisoning.  The cyanide poisoning article was created specifically to take care of this problem in the first place.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 12:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

The article says "The most hazardous compound is hydrogen cyanide, which, because it is a gas at ambient temperatures and pressure, can be inhaled. A supplied air respirator must be worn when working with hydrogen cyanide." What is meant by "supplied", does this mean the air or the respirator are supplied?2.217.150.238 (talk) 09:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Posting error
It says "The article does not mention about amyl nitrate being the antidote. Does anyone have any information regarding how soon after exposure to cyanide that amyl nitrate would be affective? Thank you" in the article. Has this been misposted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.217.150.238 (talk) 09:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Good
This should be a good article. 24.171.168.247 (talk) 15:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Cyanide and Chaya
Chaya, Cnidoscolus aconitifolius (the world's most consumed green as related by Dr. Randall) produces such levels of cyanide as to perforce a quick rapid boiling. We have a strain so gentled, we chew fresh ofttimes staying smoke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.173.130 (talk) 17:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

possible grammar problem?
I feel the urge to correct the first sentence to change "contains monovalent" to "contains the monovalent". 96.63.57.115 (talk) 14:10, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Problematic 1st sentence

 * A cyanide is any chemical compound that contains monovalent combining group CN.

Combining group is not an established term in chemistry, this is the only chemical one of total 5 articles containing it. Does cyanocobalamin or cyanates or isocyanates meet such description? Probably yes, but are they still called cyanides? I think we should avoid trying to define cyanides generally (like e.g. chloride or isocyanate articles avoid as well) and just begin with slightly modified 2nd sentence. —Mykhal (talk) 16:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Good catch. If you see other instances of this kind of writing, leave a note on the talk pages.  Some of these articles seem to be written by lawyer-etymologists. --Smokefoot (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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Anion?
The article refers to the CN- ion as an "anion".

Multiple sources on and off the web state that negatively charged ions are cations, and positively charged ions are anions.

Shouldn't the article refer to the "CN- cation" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2021
Typo under Applications > Mining > first paragraph. The word 'solids' written as 'soids'. 92.234.86.105 (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ — IVORK Talk 22:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)