Talk:Cyber (subculture)/Archive 1

Cyberpunk fashion
i've always thought of what the second paragraph on this page describes as 'cybergoth' fashion rather than 'cyberpunk' fashion. although cybergoth has it's roots in cyberpunk, i've only ever come across the term cyberpunk to decribe either the literaty movement or something that can argued to be related to concepts of said movement. when it comes to fashion i've seen it used as an adjective i.e. "that hair is very cyberpunk", but i've never really come across any real 'cyberpunk scene' or 'cyberpunk fashion'. i would say that the cyberpunk concept has had a big influence on the Rivethead/Industrial fashion, Cybergoth and Cyber (the distinction between which is a different matter ;) fashions. what do others think? --MilkMiruku 14:50, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * I've moved the majority of concent on this page back to Cyber subculture --MilkMiruku 13:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Billy Idol
Billy Idol was the first Cyberpunk. --Cyberman 06:55, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I do hope that was an ironic comment. How come Idol was the first "cyberpunk" when he was gathering information and asking questions about it at cyberpunk newsgroups before his releasing of his album "Cyberpunk"? Violenciafriki 09:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Curious notions of sequence and causality here--anybody here old enough to remember the time of Blade Runner and what hip urban kids were wearing then? Anybody familiar with what science fiction fans were wearing at cons back then? Anybody done any actual research on styles and trends?

Then there's the assertion that The Matrix "has arguably gone on to influence the concept of cyberpunk itself." Who's doing this arguing? It's pretty clearly a popular and commercially successful inheritor (or late adopter and exploiter) of an established style, but unless "influence" means "reinforce" or "popularize," I'd like to see a source or two. RLetson 18:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

noncompliant
Article (original: Cyberpunk fashion) is non-compliant with policy for being unreferenced. If it continues to be so I should redirect it to cyberpunk.Lotusduck 02:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Links
I think the links should stay as they are a good representation of the culture. Wiki links are no follow already to prevent spam. This article should be factual and not kiss up to the pretence and arrogance of the people in it, who take offence at the labelling. Maybe a section for alternate theories on how the cyber sub culture arose, instead of a definitive statement cornering the 'cybergoth'.--81.138.96.81 15:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Cybergoth vs. Cyber
There are some links to Websites that are selling things, i think that counts as spam, someone should do something about it.

I find it strange that the current state of the article takes it as a given that cyber subculture is a subset of goth subculture. If anything, cyber's primary parent is industrial/rivethead subculture &mdash; a sister subculture of goth, certainly, but quite a different creature nontheless. Beyond that, it has superficial similarities to rave subculture due to the direction of its evolution (e.g., visual aesthetics, heavy emphasis on electronic music, etc.).

Based on some quick-and-dirty informal research, it seems evident that I'm not alone in my sentiments; there are many cybers who would cringe to be labeled "goth" considering that they don't feel a shared subculture link in the slightest &mdash; the music, the aesthetics, the attitudes towards the past and future, and the importance of technology are entirely different between the two. The only reason that cyber subculture gets labeled "cybergoth", IMHO, is because it has grown up in the same "household" as goth and industrial; it suffers from the same automatic "goth" labeling that industrial/rivethead does. Goth, if anything, is an "aunt" to cyber rather than a "mother".

To use an analogy, cyber is to rivethead what postcyberpunk is to cyberpunk &mdash; to quote from the postcyberpunk article:


 * In cyberpunk, the alienating effect of new technology is emphasised, whereas in postcyberpunk, "technology is society".

Whereas industrial tends towards a negative view of technology (while accepting the aesthetic results of technological dystopia), cyber wholly embraces technology as positive.

I'm going to do some tweaking of the article (respecting NPOV, obviously, since I'm sure there are plenty of those who disagree with me); the thorniest issue is the article name itself. I'd prefer something along the lines of "Cyber subculture" as opposed to "Cybergoth", with a redirect from the latter to the former. The article would still address all the names the subculture is known by, as well as the relevant subcultural-ties issues. I'll make the other changes to the article in the next couple of days, and after a week or so I'll go ahead with the title change if I don't have any strong opposition up until that point. If there is such opposition, we'll hash it out here (naturally). ^_^-Korpios 22:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You are probably refering to EBM, since Industrial has no direct thematic relation with "technology". It's much more about questioning the nature of Art/Music and Social tabus(throught shock). Since throbbing gristle it was always mostly murder, rape, and etc. (Read the industrial talk and you will see how this is still mistaken)--vininim 03:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Ongoing edits
I'm changing the intro from:


 * Cybergoth is a subgenre of the goth subculture, and thus enjoys niche status and a relatively small (but growing) following. Influences are predominately taken from the graceful degradation that typifies goth sensibility and music, and from post-industrial, post-modern, and particularly cyberpunk film and fashion.

to:


 * Cybergoth is, depending on one's perspective, a subgenre of the goth subculture or a subculture in its own right; proponents of the latter view typically term it as cyber (i.e., without the "goth"). It enjoys niche status and a relatively small (but growing) following.  Influences are predominately taken from post-industrial, post-modern, and particularly cyberpunk film and fashion.

I'm not certain what in the world "the graceful degradation that typifies goth sensibility and music" is supposed to mean; it seems to be nonsense-speak without further clarification.-Korpios 23:19, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cyberpunk redirect
Why is there no discussion regarding the redirect of this article to Cyberpunk fashion. Yeah, there's argument to be had about the distinction between cybergoth and cyber, but lumping it all with cyberpunk seems a bit much to me. See my comments on Talk:Cyberpunk_fashion. --MilkMiruku 15:31, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

right, i'm in the process of undoing the redirect and updating the info --MilkMiruku 16:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

There are an equal number of cybergoths who'd cringe at the thought of being associated with rivetheads. Indeed, it's often seen that rivets stole an awful lot of cybergoth aspects in the late 90s, rather than developing them themselves and passing them on to cybergoth.


 * What's this about the Matrix? They didn't wear very much neon in that film, IIRC - I'd have called it a slightly fetish-y industro-goth look.

The image
Just out of curiosity, who is that image of? 04:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The image has been vandalized. -D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.223.162 (talk) 18:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It has? Heh. I was wondering if that pic was rela or not. It's been that way for 1 month soon haha. =SWF

I know him, he's from the UK. Won't give away details but I can confirm he is 100% cyb0r :D Dekoid (talk) 15:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal.
I am suggesting that the Cyberpunk fashion article be merged into this article. This article already has a "fashion" section, the other article is very short, and both articles use the same image. Clearly, they are both talking about the same thing. The merger makes sense. Any thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  02:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I have performed said merger. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Cyber/Cybergoth/Cyberkid/Cyberwhat?
I've seen this page go through a few takes on the various types of cyber, and I'd hate to make any chance to it at this point without bringing it up here, first. I do think the article as it stands has some issues, though.

I realise this is bound to be a difficult topic - it's an article about a very small and loosely defined sub-sub-culture. But that's where my main suggestion comes in, really: would it possibly be best to cover this fact within the article itself? I really doubt anyone's going to be able to find a source that can say definitively that Cyber came from goth, from industrial, from cyberpunk, from rave, from Crasherkids... it's something that's developed over time from multiple sources, and it has a few different branches, with Cybergoth probably the most well-known and well-represented at the moment. All of these branches have some things in common (they're all part of club culture, the tendency for UV-reactive clothing, love of technology/futurism in looks and mindset, interest in electronic music), and I do think they belong together in some way, but I don't think the way they're presented right now works very well. I just feel like we have a weird mish-mash covering bits of the general idea of Cyber mixed with a lot of Cybergoth-specific info, and then a separate page about Cyberkids - it's not at all structured.

So, couple of thoughts. There's already the separate page about Cyberkids. Should there be one about Cybergoth, as well, with the main Cyber Subculture page covering what they have in common and then linking out to them both? Or should we just have this one article on Cyber Subculture, with sections on the recognised different types of Cyber (i.e. Cyberkids, Cybergoth, anything else that becomes an apparent sub-set)? The Cyberkid article is pretty short, anyway, so it could probably be merged in during a restructure and clean-up. Could the fact that the origins of Cyber are fairly unclear be covered in the general Cyber part, mentioning the various possible and known influences, without a bias towards any one of them?

Also, I think there's some real clean-up needed as far as unverifiable/arguable/useless statements (the stuff about The Matrix and Swear spring to mind, or the weird insults about Cybergoth falls). I'm as stuck as anyone else on how you site and verify information about such a topic, though. As it is, it just doesn't feel like a proper encyclopaedia article, though.

Please don't take this as just whining rather than just getting on and doing something about it - I'd just hate to make any changes that upset other people, or seem biased in another direction. I'd love to have a proper go at the topic if I was sure I was going to help matters.Crypticel (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Cyberpunk vs. Cybergoth
Every time I think of Cyberpunk (fashion-wise), I'm thinking about bitter outcasts dressed in extremely dirty, loose-hanging clothing that looks like it has been gathered on several scrapyards and is mainly practical instead of flashy. However, each time when I bump into a so-called Cybergoth I see some kind of optimistic pretty in a sleak plastic outfit, with alot of sparkling neon toys and a kind of looks-over-practical dresscode. Now I míght be mistaken, but as far as I've studied Cyberpunk I'm sure there was this thing about being pretty sick of a dystopian government, being dressed in a way that can keep you on the move, and looking like you can blend in easy with old factories. As far as I'm concerned, I think that the Cybergoth-culture is quite different from the classic Cyberpunk, both in looks as in ethics, and that should be noted here. Cyanid (talk) 10:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Goth/Industrial
''The common blending of goth and industrial music nightclubs into one dance club previously referred to as 'Goth/Industrial clubs' began to have a transforming influence, encouraging 20th century style goths to assimilate a measured amount of futuristic flair into their classic black wardrobes and dark music collections. The term "Cybergoth" reflects the changing boundries of a new generation of modern goths.''

Goth and Industrial are united since the middle of the 80s. Goths listened to Christian Death and Einstürzende Neubauten and they listened to The Cure and Skinny Puppy. But in those days, a Cybergoth culture didn't exist. Goth and Industrial have nothing to do with LEDs, pink clothes and other stuff. I don't think, that Cyber is an outgrowth of Goth or Industrial, but Techno. --Ada Kataki (talk) 10:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

This is not a place to self promote
A few people have been trying to keep this wikipedia entry as just that; a wikipedia entry. To promote your scene or your friends either create a wikipedia entry for it or for them. (Though, hhhmmm. I highly doubt it would meet wikipedia's notability guidelines). Also, myspace. Great tool for just that. However, this entry is labeled 'Cyber (subculture)'. I am pretty sure that means the WHOLE subculture. Afterall it is not labeled 'Cyber Subculture (Death Guild Promotion)'. The entry is meant (or so I thought based on the rest of wikipedia) to be informative. I agree with Zazaban's edits. Adding random sentences that make NO SENSE WHAT-SO-EVER is not informative. Again, great for myspace, but not wikipedia. Also, if you go to the international goth club listing and look on myspace, it is pretty clear that Death Guild is not a cyber-oriented event. As a matter of fact, based on their myspace, they are a rather traditional goth club. I am sure that there are cyber kids there, as there are at (almost) all goth nights. One can appreciate RikFriday's enthusiasm, but it is misplaced here. Istiophoridae (talk) 02:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Cybergoth/Cyberkid/cyberpunk
There seems to be a lot of confusion. I mean these are 3 things, who have things in common but ARE NOT the same...

to put it very down to earth:

cyberkid: will listen to happycore/hardcore/hardance/ebm/industrial ecc..they do not dress in latex or have goth style clothing and has no connection with goth if not the fact that they both cross when they attend ebm/industrial parties, but that does not make them goth. cybergoth: will listen to HARSH ebm(sometimes verry close to black metal), industrial ecc..but does not appreciate hardance/hardcore ecc..or the extreme colorfulness of a cyberkid.
 * I never saw a Cyber listening to Industrial music. They listen to techno crap such as Shnarph!, X-Fusion, Combichrist and others. That has nothing to do with Industrial music. --Ada Kataki (talk) 19:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

New image
I think we need a new image. The current "cybergoth" isn't really a great example. You could consider that a cyber look, but cybergoths *usually* have a very consistent look, that isn't best exemplified by that individual. I am thinking more along the lines of these people, which is the standard cybergoth club girl look:


 * http://flickr.com/photos/fuerst/2506990870/in/set-72157605058718294/
 * http://flickr.com/photos/fuerst/2493497934/in/set-72157605058718294/ (pink girl)
 * http://flickr.com/photos/icy_cobweb/406128353/
 * http://flickr.com/photos/jamie_sproates/2303709847/

Ideally we can get a usable image that combines as many elements as possible...neon/UV, synthetic hair falls that don't even try too look like hair, goggles, platform boots, fishnet/mesh/vinyl clothing, mask, or something along those lines. The current image isn't inappropriate, but I think we can do a lot better. I've seen a great many cybergoths in clubs and at shows, and this guy's look does deviate from the norm a bit. Freqsh0 (talk) 18:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
At this point, the page cites no sources, except for the "cybergoth" section, which is copiously supported. Cybergoth means something -- basically, there were club kids in NYC, and ravers in London, and the crossbreeding of the two styles produced "gravers", and then that subculture borrowed elements from rivetheads and from the Goth subculture, and lo, cybergoths were born. "Cybers" in general, however -- seem very mysterious. The term to me basically just seems like another term for ravers. With that in mind, I think a new cybergoth page should be created, based on the sources we've got, and then we'll move from there. Aryder779 (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)