Talk:Cybernetics in the Soviet Union

Merge proposal

 * Oppose: Unfortunately there has been no reason offered for this proposal. However the opening sentence indicates the reason for a separate article: "Cybernetics in the Soviet Union has its own particular characteristics as the study of cybernetics there interacted with the dominant ideology of Marxism-Leninism." This, I believe is a unique response to cybernetics, but if there are parallels elsewhere, aside from within Soviet satellite countries, please give details. It also corresponds to a page on the Russian Wikipedia. Leutha (talk) 09:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Several sources (including one book-length source) discuss Soviet cybernetics alone, noted as unique example of the "curious blend of mathematical technique, ideology, information technology, and postmodern scientific universalism" in the Soviet Union (see http://web.mit.edu/slava/homepage/newspeak.htm). Clearly deserving of a separate article outside the main Cybernetics article, in order to document its unique characteristics and history. Tenpop421 (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Stalin banning cybernetics
I disagree with the inclusion of the statement "the fact that Stalin banned cybernetics". The two sources you've provided for this are Zubok's A Failed Empire (2007) and Wellman's A Chip in the Curtain (1989).

In Zubok, Stalin and cybernetics are mentioned only once, and tangentially, on p. 166. Stalin's "direct and often obsessive interference" is credited with the ban on genetics and cybernetics. I'm not sure where Zubok gets the latter claim, none of the cited sources (two on the Soviet atom bomb, one archival note which sources a quote) are obvious choices to back it up. Elsewhere he cites Gerovitch and, given the former claim about the (contemporaneous) attack on genetics is true, it's possible to attribute it to carelessness. Stalin spoke often on genetics, but never on cybernetics. To quote Yuri Zhdanov (writing in 1993): "While Stalin spoke against modern genetics, he never opposed cybernetics. On the contrary, in connection with the space enterprise every effort was made to advance computer technology. In particular, our Department had an assignment to help Academician S. A. Lebedev with the construction of the first machines of the BESM type. And that was done. (Gerovitch, p. 131)"

Gerovitch's work, the only English language monograph on the subject of cybernetics in the Soviet Union (to my knowledge), makes no mention of any top-down campaign against cybernetics, or remarks from Stalin on the subject. Instead it shows how articles in official periodicals were interpreted as such by mid-level journalists, scientists, librarians, & so on. (Gerovitch, pp. 115-116) Peter's article on the subject concurs that we have no "direct evidence of Stalin's involvement in the campaign against cybernetics" (Peters, p. 150), though he leaves open the possibility that Stalin had opinions on the subject.

In Wellman, a Cold War history of computing in the Soviet Union, cybernetics is mentioned sparsely and there are similarly dubious claims that Stalin "directed that the study of commonality in the communication and control systems in machines and man be condemned as "bourgeois" science." (p. 49) The sources for its claims about cybernetics under Stalin are all from Ichiro Takizawa, "National Security and Technology Transfer," Economics and Pacific Security: The 1986 Pacific Symposium, which I've unfortunately been unable to trace. But there are reasons prima facie to be doubtful of the accuracy of Cold War sources on Stalin and the Soviet Union (before scholars had access to archives in Russia and Stalin's personal papers, for example).

In a sense cybernetics was "banned", in that, in the climate of fear of Stalinist Russia, no scientist dared make positive comments about it. But there is no evidence of any top-down campaign against it, and I'm aware of no historical sources equal to Gerovitch's which make claims as such (a tangential reference isn't much of a source). I hope this clears up why I have reverted your edits so far. Tenpop421 (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Tenpop421 Interesting point. I suppose the article can remain in its pre-existing form until better sources are found. WikiUser4020 (talk) 21:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Stark differences between Russian and English versions
In the English version of the article (this one), Stalin is accused of thwarting computerization and digital progress. However, the Russian version of the article goes into remarkable detail into his efforts to further the technology. https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кибернетика_в_СССР 82.115.62.57 (talk) 23:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The statement about Stalin just isn't true. See the above section in the talk page, but Stalin is actually not blamed for anything in this article. The anti-cybernetics streak of Soviet journalism in the period under Stalin was, as far as anyone can tell, totally disconnected from what Stalin thought. However, many people at the time took Stalin to be responsible, and so his death precipitated a lot of cybernetics literature. I think the reason the Russian and English version differ so radically is that the Russian version is mostly about computer technology in the Soviet Union whereas the English version focuses in on cybernetics, the mid-century systems theory invented by Norbert Wiener, which gained currency in the Soviet Union from the '50s to the '70s. The word "cybernetics" in English can refer to both. If this was an article on Soviet computer technology it would of course be a very different article, and could not justifiably focus on such a small range of time. Tenpop421 (talk) 19:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)