Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive 2

"The Matrix" as cyberpunk?
Is it just me, or does "The Matrix" strike anyone else as being more in the post-cyberpunk genre? By the definitions listed in the Genres, subcategories and related topics to science fiction article for cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk, it is clearly post-cyberpunk since it contains a protagonist who works within a society to improve the society (as well as the world in general), using special powers posessed only by the protagonist—as "The Chosen One," Neo can do things that others are unable to accomplish, i.e. control the Matrix without a computer. Granted that "The Matrix" is as close to cyberpunk as Hollywood has come in a long time, it just doesn't seem to fit Wikipedia's definition. Should the definitions of cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk be revised to deal with this, or should we try to steer the classification of "The Matrix" in a way that more accurately (according to the definitions) describes the movies? Or should I just mutter to myself about it :) ?


 * Hi. First, thanks for writing.  (-:  Second, the big problem is that sorting works (books, movies, etc.) into "vanilla" cyberpunk or postcyberpunk based on our interpretations of the definitions constitutes original research.    We can either make a definite claim which no one has made before (a bad idea), or we can write something wishy-washy like "some may claim that The Matrix is therefore more postcyberpunk than original cyberpunk".  That's just too weaselly&mdash;better to say nothing at all!


 * The best one can do, I think, is to lay out what people mean by "postcyberpunk" in a clear and rational way, which I believe this article does decently well by now. People, being smart animals, can then make their own judgments as to where to include this or that work.  Not everybody believes postcyberpunk is a useful term, after all.  There exist plenty of sources which call the Matrix series cyberpunk, and a handful calling Snow Crash and Ghost in the Shell postcyberpunk.  Reporting what these sources say and giving pointers back to the original statements is about the best the collective lifeform known as the Wikipedia can do.


 * Welcome to the wonderful world of encyclopaedia scholarship. But hey, there's always the Academia Wikicity! Anville 18:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's only my POV, but FWIW I see The Matrix as pure cyberpunk - about as pure as you can get. But all these categories are contestable. Gibson himself never even liked the term "cyberpunk"; it was others who promoted it. God knows what "post-cyberpunk" really amounts to, though the discussion here is quite interesting. Metamagician3000 12:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The Matrix definantely falls into cyberpunk. However, it is cyberpunk with the intent to enter into postcyberpunk. It's a means to an end. What we see in the Matrix is the meat of things, and what happens after the series is where a postcyberpunk theory would come into play. Eluchil  13:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Anarchy Online
Congratulations for making this a featured article. Under the games section I think you should add Anarchy Online as well as it's a MMORPG Cyberpunk game.

Good job
I may not be a literary critic, but I think the discussion and analysis in this article is very good. Lots of good references and many definitive, concise statements. That said, I think it goes on for a bit too long about whether or not the Matrix sequels were any good, a tangent discussion most likely expounded upon at sufficient length in the article on the Matrix series. Deco 01:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

System Shock
I think Origin's System Shock deserves a prominent place in the Games section as one of the best and most complex games in the genre. Otherwise, this is a fantastic article, great job everyone! - Emt147 Burninate!  02:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree on both points, good job on the article, enjoyed reading it, and on the inclusion of SS. I would also add that Deus Ex should probably be in there as well.  There is quite a bit that could be added on PC cyberpunk info, the games section at the moment tends (naturally) to focus on the RPG side of things. SFC9394 17:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

GURPS Cyberpunk
This article repeats an assertion uncritically that Steve Jackson games disputes. The raid on their offices was not actually part of Operation Sundevil. Rather than repeat that misnomer, how about crediting the event as the Electronic Frontier Foundation credits it: as a landmark case in electronic rights law that established privacy rights for e-mail. Durova 06:37, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Congrats on the featured article
Naturally I searched within the page for "Ghost in the Shell" and found it, so that made me happy. So, uhh, Ghost in the Shell is just two links away from the main page :-P Cyde 08:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Just echoing my congrats, it's a wonderfully done article - and I admittedly just clicked through because I remembered being on the talk page before, and loving the Sony photograph, heh. Great work though, this is a textbook example of what a featured article should be Sherurcij 09:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ditto! My only question is whether or not Snow Crash should be listed.  Arguably one of the more popular of the novels in the genre.  Wikibofh 17:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Bruce Sterling definition of cyberpunk
While Sterling may be an innovator in this genre, his definition that is quoted doesn't seem very useful. Using this definition you could classify any number of non-cyberpunk works (even non-science fiction works) as cyberpunk. --Anon.

There is no mention of an an MMORPG game named Neocron which is based within a hug cyberpunk universe.

Garbage text at top of article
Someone added garbage text to the top of the article; I can't see it in the edit window so I can't remove it.

Ninja
"Protagonists in cyberpunk writing usually include computer hackers, who are often patterned on the idea of the lone hero fighting injustice: Western gunslingers, samurai (or ronin), ninja, etc." I took out the "ninja" part of it since ninja hardly fought alone.
 * I take it this means "real" ninja but in fiction, ninja does fight alone. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of fictious works available. By the same reasoning, it wouldn't make sense to have "Western gunslingers" as they often appear with a sidekick and almost always operated in a pair or larger group in reality because it's simply stupid to travel alone. I'm putting "ninja" back in. --Revth 00:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Genre tendencies
I've seen a couple of edits now that make a point of using "fascist" and/or "totalitarian" to describe the cyberpunk genre, claiming that examples "tend to be set in fascist or dystopian worlds." This strikes me as inaccurate, mainly because of the connotations of the words. "Fascist" and "totalitarian" both refer to the power of governments, but in many examples, the government is substantially weaker than what we know today. Breakdown of law and order is a common theme, as is the rise of megacorps. This is not "fascism" in the 20th century sense, which indicates a strong central government in alliance with corporations. Rather, the corporations *are* the law. I really feel that either "fascist" or "totalitarian" sends the wrong message about the genre. "1984" is not cyberpunk. Simishag 01:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've always viewed cyberpunk as a world in which technology and humans are interconnected and interdependant on one another. One ends where the other begins and are mixed throughout. Socially, physically, and mentally; directly, and indirectly. Also that technology becomes a crutch for humanity, and technology is only limited to the people who wield it. I wouldn't know what to classify that other than cyberpunk, and of course that's self-referencing and redundant. Eluchil  07:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Some examples
mabbe:
 * deus ex(game)
 * deus es 2
 * dark angel(tv)

Restored "Style" section
The Style section got zapped several weeks ago, during what looks like a goof in reverting a silly piece of vandalism. I put it back and made a couple edits for text flow. Anville 12:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

We survived the Main Page!
First of all, I'd like to thank again everyone who helped make this article an FA, and also those responsible for its ascending to the Main Page. While that position always attracts the vandals and the p0z3rz, it also means that for a day, this page was the most visible authority on cyberpunk that the Internet had to offer. And that's pretty darn cool. (I just checked, and right now it's the second Google hit. The French Wikipédia article is the first hit on google.fr, but it's not nearly as good as this one.)  So, cheers for everybody&mdash;if that's not too happy a sentiment for all those digital nihilgoths out there. Kids today, with their iPods and their VNV Nation and their wild serotonin imbalances. . ..

I'm glad to see the extra visibility brought some new additions. Kudos to all those who saw the page and jacked their brains into its revision matrix. Because I'm a killjoy, I'd just like to remind everyone that this article should be an overview of the entire genre&mdash;and this genre is a pretty big and varied place. I appreciate everyone throwing in a blurb about their favourite cyberpunk work; particularly in the "Games" section, the article records what the most popular pieces are, and to a first-order approximation, what is most popular and influential is probably reflected in what people are most eager to write about. So that's cool. However, if the game or the story is not really and clearly significant, a killjoy like myself will come along and snip it out. This is why we have the List of cyberpunk works: if all you want to do is to record that a particular thing is cyberpunk, that's the perfect place to do so. My personal rule of thumb is that to warrant a mention in this article, a particular work should have at least a couple good sentences indicating its importance, and a verifiable source backing up the assertion should be available either in this article or the one on the individual work. Not too much to ask, but with FA standards going up all the time, it's important.

Also, if you are considering adding a movie, song or story made before the genre got big&mdash;something created before Blade Runner, let's say&mdash;please stop and ask if what you're doing is original research. People at the time didn't consider Fritz Lang's Metropolis cyberpunk, for the very good reason that the word didn't exist yet. Ditto for Isaac Asimov's "Evidence", even though that story has a giant corporation and a cyborg trying to take over government. In 1965, Kurt Vonnegut wrote an essay entitled "On Science Fiction", where he points out how the people who truly love SF often appropriate other writers and other books into the genre. "Boomers of science fiction might reply, 'Ha! Orwell and Ellison and Flaubert and Kafka are science-fiction writers, too!'  They often say things like that.  Some are crazy enough to try to capture Tolstoy.  It is as though I were to claim that everybody of note belonged fundamentally to Delta Upsilon, my own lodge, incidentally, whether he knew it or not.  Kafka would have been a desperately unhappy D.U." It's recommended reading. I think the applications to the cyberpunk sub-genre are painfully obvious&mdash;but again, I shouldn't say so in the article itself, since that is (to the best of my knowledge) Original Research. So, before throwing in Metropolis or Tron, take pause.

For example, I'm dubious about including Styx's Kilroy Was Here, but not so dubious that I'll strike it out completely. Play "Mr. Roboto" right after VNV Nation's "Future", like I'm doing right now, and it becomes clear they are not the same kind of music. Ha. But Styx's eminently lip-synchable concept album does feature a dystopian future full of robots, so maybe it belongs after all.

Does anybody else think "Wild Serotonin Imbalance" would be a pretty good name for a nihilistic synthpop band? (-;

Best wishes for Twenty-Aught-Six. Be seeing you. Anville 17:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "Wild Serotonin Imbalance" is a good name, as is "Commercial-Free Hour", if only for the verbal tricks radio DJs would have to go through in order to say it. =FaxCelestis 23:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Spoken Wiki
Am just beginning to lay down tracks; probably be about a week. Potteryfreak 00:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Awesome! When it's done, we can make a techno remix. (-; Anville 10:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, I did one too. Didn't see this way down here. I'll upload mine; if yours is better, feel free to overwrite. =FaxCelestis 23:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Setting of Ghost in the Shell
So, should we say the obvious choice, "a futuristic Japan", or the subtle choice, "a futuristic Hong Kong"? Well, the manga is pretty clear where its action takes place: if I do not mistake myself terribly much, it identifies the locale as Japan on the first or second page. (Working away from one's library can be such a pain, sometimes. . . .) On the other hand, the city itself&mdash;Niihama, "Newport City"&mdash;seems patterned after Hong Kong. Here's a random reference substantiating that claim; note that the page begins, "In 2029, Japan has reemerged as a world economic and political power."

Personally, I'm inclined to leave the GiTS section the way it is right now. In the second episode of Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG, the animators modeled the city after New York, particularly the New York of Taxi Driver, and in episode 18, Our Heroes go to Berlin, where the newspapers are in German but everybody speaks Japanese. If you ask me, I'd chalk up Niihama's "look" in the first movie to the production design people, rather than an actual choice of setting. (After all, Niihama is only as real as the New Hong Kong in Greg Egan's Quarantine.) Anville 19:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Edits in question: this article and the 1995 movie. Anville 19:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Am I crazy or does this not massively go against Wiki's neutrality policy? There is an absolute, and very debatable, POV in this article!


 * cite examples, please. Simishag 01:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

eep
Hello. I've been studying the (information systems) architecture of the human mind. I have an articulation of human experience that is completely quantifiable in informatical terms - so I believe I have found a way for human beings to cleanly and clearly explain their experiences in toto, as if they were machines. I believe this has been done before in Vedantic and other meditative traditions, only without the contextualisation with analytical philosophy and set theory that I believe I can present. So I find myself in the position of bridging certain intellectual traditions... i.e. I find myself outside any existing research project to my knowledge. Therefore I have endeavoured to make the writing of my textbook/manual a night-job, and I am drafting it entirely on the WWW, where I can easily refer it to any interested parties. Anyway, I feel that this whole project is very 'cyberpunk' so I was wondering if anyone would be interested in linking me to the Wikipedia entry on 'cyberpunk'. Please tell me, should I just come back in 2023 or sooner, when I finish writing the whole thing? I don't want to be a disturbance to anyone.

Here is the project core: http://cyberpunk101.blogspot.com/2006/01/textbook-scribbles-drafts.html

Criticisms
The section on criticisms is rather vague and weaselly. Can we attribute some of those criticisms to specific people? Just A Shibboleth 10:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Cyberpunk
Cyberpunk is more than a story or a movie, it is a way of life for some people. Music, weapons, technology, science, medicine, computers are all part of 'the future', and who else but a cyberpunk would want to embrace this all ? Its not about being in a band, its not about owning a gun, its not about using a microscope, its not the next high. Its about going outside of mainsteam society control. It's about getting what you want whilst working in this culture. It's about being able to draw attention to yourself and at other times fade in the background.

Cyberpunk grew out of a need. The need for control after the cold war. The need for better communication in an ignorant world. The need to actually change things, instead of letting the world just blindly stumble on.

Cyberpunk IS the future. Don't be ignorant and assume its a set period in time. It's 'the future', it happens '20 minutes from now' as Max Headroom would say. Adapt or die. Humanity didn't stop elvoving when we invented the car, or the computer.

Doesnt matter if you don't believe me. These are just words on a screen. In the end everyone makes a choice. Society has a choice. Does it want the future to be like a Star Trek styled utopia, or an aggressive dystopia ?

I know which one im living in right now. And I don't see any one peice uniforms... --Dem 04:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

List of Seminal Works?
I came to the wikipedia page hoping that there would be a list at the end of some of the best cyberpunk works, but no dice. Is there a chance we could just put one at the end, so that if people upon reading the article could see which books would be good to get started with?

NealJMD (talk) 14:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a List of cyberpunk works, but generally the most notable works are listed in each section of the cyberpunk page itself. magnius (talk) 15:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Deus Ex game
Could Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War also be added to games of cyberpunk genere? If yes, then please somebody so it. I am not lazy, I am just not 100% sure about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.77.184.27 (talk) 13:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They're already listed in List of cyberpunk works, so there is no real need to over clutter this article. magnius (talk) 13:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Literature
In this section under Overview a little history seems missing, some of it is there but I know that both William Gibson and Bruce Sterling (probably the other CP writers too)did not like the term Cyberpunk, have heard them voice this on panels at SF conventions, at least early on, probably have it documented somewhere. I know both have complained that CP just ought to be called plain science fiction for historical reasons, saying that H.L. Gold's Galaxy Magazine was publishing the same kind of fiction as early as 1950. The artlcle does note Alfred Bester's great baroque SF space opera THE STARS MY DESTINATION is solid CP and that was written in 1956, maybe more mention of the works of Phil Dick , Cordwainer Smith , Fred Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth from the 1950's should be given more space and expanded upon.--aajacksoniv (talk) 12:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

And doing a cyberpunk article without mention of The Shockwave Rider is a real tour de force. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.172.190.2 (talk) 08:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Blade Runner and cyberpunk
The paragraph "Many influential films such as Blade Runner and the Matrix trilogy can be seen as prominent outgrowths of the genre's styles and themes" is for sure correct about The Matrix, but probably wrong about Blade Runner. The latter was shot in 1981 and released in 1982, so I don't think it could be an outgrowth of the cyberpunk genre, which was yet to be defined at that time (AFAIK). I don't do the edit myself because I'm not completely sure, though. --Danmaz74 23:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * in a similar vein, Akira was written in 1981, so could not have been influenced by the cyberpunk genre. Obviously Bladerunner and Akira went on to shape and influence what would become Cyberpunk, but they could not have been influenced by it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outerstyx (talk • contribs) 12:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

"Real life" --> "Cultural impact" ?
I'd like to toss out an idea I've had for a while, but haven't tried to move on because I'm busy elsewhere on Wikipedia. The "Real life" section can be expanded if it covered the cultural impact the cyberpunk genre has had. The references to urban areas already suggests an architectural impact, and information from the Cyberdelic and Cybergoth pages can be used to invoke the counter-cultural impact cyberpunk has had. There is also some overlap with the "Music" section (which is itself very bare) when musicians are inspired by cyberpunk fiction in their work. A sub-section on the aesthetic impact can be used to expand how artists in illustration, music, and film have been inspired. We know Billy Idol is a confirmed example of this from the Cyberpunk album page, and I imagine their are many others. Again, I'm very busy elsewhere, and this isn't a subject I have a great deal of knowledge on, but I'm sure a few fans of the genre who read this may have other ideas for how to move forward.--Cast (talk) 22:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cultural Impact
 * Architecture and urban planning
 * Society and counterculture
 * Arts and aesthetics
 * This is somewhat covered by the List of cyberpunk works. That page could certainly be improved a little, as long as citations are always present. magnius (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That list is nothing more than what the title implies—a list of works classified as cyberpunk. The list cannot function as an exposition on the impact cyberpunk has had on society in the past 30 years. (My goodness, has it been that long?) However, such a section would complement the list, in that research into the genre's legacy may reveal new works to include on that list.--Cast (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My only reservation would be that "cultural" might be too narrow of a scope if architecture and so on are included. There's also the significant influence c*punk has had on actual technology to take into account – see William_Gibson for example. So I'm not sure about the heading change. Other than this minor quibble, I think the proposal is excellent, and don't think a list will be able to do the work we would want this prose section to do. Skomorokh  22:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Even as I completed this write up, I realized I was neglecting the technological impact. Perhaps a broader term to use would be "Legacy"? Another term may be "Social impact", "social" being broad enough to cover any aspect of society, cultural, literary (the section on subgenres may be moved here), aesthetical, musical, or technological.--Cast (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Both seem very apt :) Skomorokh  22:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

2010 update
I had a little free time this morning and I was tired of waiting to see if anyone would follow up on these ideas. I've created the section myself. Now I'm sure someone will pass by it and make changes. Hope these help eventually drive the article to FA status. Happy editing. --Cast (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Matrix is a bad example to use prominent cyberpunk
I think this article is confusing, because it lists the Matrix as prominent example of cyberpunk. While it seems to be clear that most sources do indeed classify the Matrix as cyberpunk, that classification is far from clear and obvious. The Matrix fails to introduce a "new social order". The machines manipulation of reality is subtle, and does not effect the social day to day life of the average person. Also the Matrix is not "near future". One could also debate the "low life" aspect. Clearly before Nero was recruited he was "low life", but is true of many soldiers. Really, if you look at the available genre classifications the Matrix is actually a better match for Military Science Fiction. However, I am not going to debate the classification of the Matrix as cyberpunk as that is clearly what the experts classify it as. I do however feel it is not the best example to use, as it leaves people confused as to what exactly is cyberpunk.Bill C. Riemers, PhD. (talk) 15:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This article surely wouldn't be confusing just by listing only one single movie that doesn't properly fall into the cyberpunk genre. That is, if it were so. It isn't. There are quite a few examples here one might easily consider debatable, just the more so, of course, as everyone maintains a slightly dissimilar, because ultimately individual notion of 'what actually makes something cyberpunk'. And that's why it's completely pointless to haggle over single examples out of any such lists -- they are only intended to provide rough examples! This is no science! No clear-cut issue! No reliable set of criteria known to be met! The Matrix seems appropriate for several reasons, but at least and certainly not less appropriate than most of the other examples! For one, it's fairly popular. In fact more popular, than most of the other films listed. And without doubt it draws heavily on at least one movie widely considered a springboard of the genre, namely Blade Runner. Apart from that I personally couldn't find anything specifically military concerning The Matrix..?! Something in the vein of Starship Troopers?! Not really. The Matrix first and foremost deals with rather philosophical matters.. a facet also and in general more typical of Cyberpunk, than of chiefly Military Science Fiction. All in all, if The Matrix isn't Cyberpunk, Neuromancer couldn't be either. But then, what is? Zero Thrust (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Bethke and cyberpunk
I have not been previously engaged in any debates about Bethke, nor posted any edits or articles on him, but I have to wonder about the Bethke claim to Cyberpunk (a portmanteau of Cyberspace and Punk - but how can you have Cyberpunk without Gibson's Cyberspace first? We'll get to that.). First off, his article on inventing the term Cyberpunk, is totally self-referential. Why is the ONLY link to his purported claim directed to HIS OWN WEB PAGE???? Further, when you go to his home web page where he claims to explain how he managed to invent the term (Etymology of Cyberpunk) he offers lots of colorful stories, memories of Radio Shack, and prose...yet not one single explanation proper of his literary invention (only citing a mysterious short story written 14 prior to its release. Yes, really). William Gibson invented the term CyberSPACE in 1979. Martin Caidin invented the term CyBORG in 1971. Both of which had to come prior (time-line wise) to Bethke's invention. Yet nowhere does Bethke give a solid point of reference for combining the PUNK with the CYBER for his claimed portmanteau. Ergo, this reeks of simply hijacking Gibson's words, ethos, and literary inventions. Thus - if Bethke REALLY DID invent the term? Why doesn't he at least have one single source outside his own homepage to verify this? (not so much as an external interview exists). Likewise, his claim to have written it in a "story that was not published"...Uh, hello? He says he wrote the story back in 1980 but it was unpublished, and due to publisher rights issues, it sat on some shelf for over ten years. Really? Wow. Maybe my dad invented the entire World Wide Web, the first Browser, and Wikipedia all back in 1942, but the paper he wrote (complete with diagrams!) actually sat inside a secret room in the basement of the Pentagon until now. But hey - since he said it? Why do we need pesky things like PROOF or outside sources? (That are not self-referential). I'm not trying to destroy Bethke or his credibility (he can do that himself). I don't even know the man. But I think Wikipedia deserves much more or else this term (and its origins) can get lost to history with some singular person claiming credit. I think it should be credited to multiple people (including Gibson whom without his term Cyberspace - no punk would have a plane which to inhabit!). Come on folks - this Bethke claim is exactly the reason we've all fought so hard to get Wikipedia accepted as a legit reference. When critics trash us for "allowing anyone to post anything as gospel"...this is one example they can cite. Is it too mcuh to require some legit proof or reference? If not - I'm going over to the Nickelback and Kanye West pages and claim that all of their songs and albums were written and recorded by me back in 1988 - except the CDs have sat on the shelf of a secret label and I'm just now able to release it. And if you query as to where I divined inspiration for both GOLD DIGGER and SOMETHING IN YOUR MOUTH? I'll tell you about my memories of working at Radio Shack or FYE, but not any proof of deriving the actual words. See how bad that sucks? I have not shaved off Bethke's claim, nor made any corrections myself. I'll let some of you who are better at Wiki-formatting than I handle this task. But it NEEDS to be done to save some Wiki credibility. Thank you for all your hard work. Dr. MilSpook, PhD.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.68.187.188 (talk) 16:09, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

An anonymous user has mounted a campaign, both here and in the article on Bruce Bethke, to remove any mention of Bethke's short story and its role in coining the term "cyberpunk." We need to have a discussion of all involved editors on this subject. For now, the referenced statements should remain, pending a consensus. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 04:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not true. I only removed it from the lead paragraph, and left the discussion of it in the section below.  For consistency, I updated the Bethke page to indicate that the claim was unsubstantiated.  I believe that a claim that bold needs a source to back it up and shouldn't be accepted as fact without one.  I also find it difficult to believe that an obscure short story, published in 1983, could possibly be the source of the name of the genre that Neuromancer launched in 1984.  Moreover, I've never seen that claim made anywhere outside of Wikipedia and Bethke's own home page.


 * It should be removed unless and until you can produce any reference that backs it up. Bethke's personal page is not a legit reference for this claim for obvious reasons.76.28.209.17 (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What you find "hard to believe" is utterly beside the point. The claim was referenced, and now has two references. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  13:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Gibson demoted?
Is William Gibson's 'Neuromancer' no longer universally credited as the seminal archetype for the Cyberpunk genre? 'Blade Runner', with absolutely no cyberspace elements is 'quintessential'? The only actually quintessential cyberpunk films have been abject failures, so you go to the closest matching success? I recognize the influence of the film, but sorry, without cyberspace, how is it cyberpunk? Unless you've redefined it?Ernest Ruger (talk) 10:31, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Add Watch Dogs to Game list?
Should I add Watch Dogs as an example game? It is popular and a more recent example than the others in the current list. Wilkesalex (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Time period
Does cyberpunk have to be near future or can it take place in an alternate present? Person of Interest is about a war between two artificially intelligent surveillance systems developed by the government; however, it takes place in 2014.—Saagar A (talk) 04:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Where is Scanners?
The movie Scanners (1980) by David Cronenberg seems to fit right in with Cyberpunk (and predates most of the movies that are listed). Should it be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.150.253.55 (talk) 02:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think scanners qualifies because it lacks the cyber elements. It shares a lot of theme and style with cyberpunk, but is missing several key things. As many people have defined cyberpunk as basically 'high tech low life'… scanners is really devoid of the high tech element. Just my two cents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.45.190 (talk) 14:04, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Can /r/Cyberpunk be added to the external links section?
So I added https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk to the external links section which was reverted with the comment "Reddit is a clear WP:ELNO". I think it's a reasonable addition to this section for the following reasons:


 * Probably the largest (and currently most active) cyberpunk community with close to 70.000 users
 * It's an aggregation-site for anything cyberpunk (hence a wealth of information can be found there on the topic etc)
 * I don't see which specific point of WP:ELNO the site would fall under:
 * 1 - 9 are categorically false
 * 10 -> it's not a social networking site but simply an aggregator of anything cyberpunk (mostly articles & art)
 * 11, & 13 - 19 are categorically false as well
 * 12 -> the site has its own wiki as well - but that's not the site itself. Also that wiki has a year-long history of stability.

--Fixuture (talk) 23:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * 1: Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. What information is here that would be in a featured article?
 * 10: Social networking sites (such as Myspace, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram), chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), Twitter feeds, Usenet newsgroups or e-mail lists. -- Reddit is most definitely in this category. An aggregator is a lousy site regardless, but Reddit is not an aggregator, it's a social bookmarking and discussion forum. This is the one that makes it clear no reddit site will be a viable external link beyond an official link in the Reddit article.
 * 11: Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority -- To any extent that Reddit does not fall under 10 (which is minimal), this would apply -- it's user-generated content. To argue that it merely links relevant sites which are themselves reliable sources means those are the sites we should link to (if anything).
 * From elsewhere in the EL guideline: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. And Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)? -- There is no reason to think any of the content which may or may not be present when a user visits this site will be any of these. I.e. it is not necessarily Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject....
 * if there's any doubt, you're welcome to bring it up at WP:ELN, but I assure you Reddit is a no-go. I use Reddit and like Reddit, but it's not a good link for an encyclopedia. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 00:21, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "[...] a unique resource beyond [...]" What information is here that would be in a featured article? Well basically all of it. Articles, art, news, websites, essays etc.
 * it's user-generated content The point of 11 is essentially personal webpages - the subreddit is not of that kind. It's a platform.
 * But I guess you're right with the rest of your post. Too bad (I thought it would be really useful in understanding cyberpunk), but thanks for your explanation. --Fixuture (talk) 21:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Philip K. Dick as cyberpunk
I have added the tag as follows:


 * Philip K. Dick's works contain recurring themes of social decay, artificial intelligence, paranoia, and blurred lines between objective and subjective realities. The influential cyberpunk movie Blade Runner (1982) is based on his book, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?.

(It is certainly possible that I used the wrong tag. I hope someone will correct the tag if so.)

The second sentence is obviously intended to be an example that demonstrates the first sentence. But while it is true that Blade Runner was adapted from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, having read the novel (and consumed a variety of cyberpunk media,) I think it's very arguable whether Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? itself is cyberpunk. (As merely a small example, the Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? article doesn't mention the word "cyberpunk" at all.)

To avoid - or deletion of the sentence entirely - I think we need 1 or more reliable citations that the novel itself is cyberpunk.

Thanks,

69.143.175.242 (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * No, the second sentence just says that the influential cyberpunk movie Blade Runner is based on one of his books. It doesn't mean that the book is cyberpunk as well. I removed the tag. --Fixuture (talk) 08:08, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Influence on architecture
I'd like to challenge the claim that cyberpunk had any significant impact on architecture, and certainly if Berlin's Sony Center is going to be used as the only example thereof. Maybe if the building had some brutalist or industrial elements, but even then I would doubt that cyberpunk is to be named as even part of what inspired any trend towards incorporating such elements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.62.43 (talk) 23:32, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * mhm... It seems you are right on that one. Cyberpunk seems to take more influences than it gives in architecture. The mention of cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai seem to be better located under the Settings section. Perhaps if you can find a citation that speaks about the role Brutalism had on Cyberpunk that would be great to.Terramorphous (talk) 23:51, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

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What was the main reason for the raid?
The article says: "That was, in fact, not the main reason for the raid", but it doesn't specify what was. 79.103.248.75 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right. And the source used as reference states:
 * We have since been told that neither SJ Games nor the GURPS Cyberpunk manuscript was the object of the raids. However, we were never able to secure the return of the complete manuscript; the chief result of our efforts was a huge legal bill. The Secret Service at first flatly refused to return anything – then agreed to let us copy files, but when we got to their office, restricted us to one set of out-of-date files – then agreed to make copies for us, but said "tomorrow" every day from March 4 to March 26. On March 26 we received a set of disks which purported to be our files, but the material was late, incomplete and well-nigh useless.
 * That most certainly does not support the material. Rewriting it. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 17:07, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Move 'The Stars My Destination' (1956) to History and Origins of Cyberpunk, and make it more prominent?
Currently Bester's 1956 Hugo Award-winning novel 'The Stars My Destination' is briefly mentioned in passing at the end of section 4.1 'Literature'. I suggest this does not reflect the importance of the novel to Cyberpunk.

The Wiki page for TSMD has some interesting quotes from notable cyberpunk authors on TSMD (apologies, wall of text incoming, but I think it's worth it):

By 1987, when the author died, "It was apparent that the 1980s genre [cyberpunk] owed an enormous debt to Bester—and to this book in particular," Neil Gaiman wrote in the introduction to a 1999 edition of the book. "The Stars My Destination is, after all, the perfect cyberpunk novel: it contains such cheerfully protocyber elements as multinational corporate intrigue; a dangerous, mysterious, hyperscientific MacGuffin (PyrE); an amoral hero; a supercool thief-woman ..."[2] James Lovegrove called it "the very best of Bester",[11] and Thomas M. Disch identified it as "one of the great sf novels of the 1950s".[11] "Our field has produced only a few works of actual genius, and this is one of them," wrote Joe Haldeman.[11] who added that he reads the novel "every two or three years and it still evokes a sense of wonder." According to Samuel R. Delany, the book is "considered by many to be the greatest single SF novel".[11] while Robert Silverberg wrote that it is "on everybody's list of the ten greatest SF novels".[2] Fantasy writer Michael Moorcock praised it as "a wonderful adventure story" that embodies truly libertarian principles.[12] Ty Franck, co-author of The Expanse series, said "I don't remember any of the other stories in [A Treasury of Great Science Fiction, Volume Two; an anthology of science fiction stories], and I read that book a dozen times. The only story that sticks out in my mind is The Stars My Destination."[13] In a 2011 survey asking leading science fiction writers to name their favourite work of the genre, The Stars My Destination was the choice of William Gibson and Moorcock. Gibson remarked that the book was "perfectly surefooted, elegantly pulpy", and "dizzying in its pace and sweep", and a "talisman" for him in undertaking his first novel. Moorcock hailed Bester's novel as a reminder of "why the best science fiction still contains, as in Ballard, vivid imagery and powerful prose coupled to a strong moral vision".[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination

Some strong evidence there. I'm not very good at wiki editing, but I can try to condense that down and add it to the History and Origins of Cyberpunk. The quotes that stand out to me are Gaiman, Gibson (of course), and Moorcock. If others agree then I'll steam ahead perhaps over Xmas. If someone else wishes to go ahead and make the changes, please do so. Don't wait for me. RedTomato (talk) 23:18, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

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Low-life?
It does not seem to me that the phrase "high tech and low life" should contain a link to the low-life article. That article is about people who are "considered morally unacceptable by their community in general" (the article mentions prostitutes, drug addicts etc.), but I believe the "low life" in this context means "low living standard" (in contrast to high-tech, ie. advanced technology which implies "advanced society" and therefore a high living standard). This contrast I believe to be the essence of cyberpunk, and not the presence of low-lives such as hookers and drug dealers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.252.138 (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to make a new section on that same issue here. AFAIK low life is meant in terms of a measurement of the quality of life and not in terms of "people looked down upon by their community, usually for their activities" (which is subordinate to the grander low life aspect). I reverted related edits. If there are any meaningful objections to this please post them here. [ ] --Fixuture (talk) 00:05, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I contest that the use of low-life is appropriate, given that the intro itself explicitly states "Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society". Compare that with low-life: "A low-life or lowlife is a term for a person who is considered morally unacceptable by their community." and "The lure of the low-life for those in established social strata has been a perennial feature of western history: it can be traced [...] through to the anti-heroes of Cyberpunk." Tpdwkouaa (talk) 00:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Posting here as you asked to contend the wikilink here before removing it. I guess you meant to contest that it's inappropriate.
 * I compared it and find it a very sloppy conclusion that low-life people are meant. In effect you're saying that being a cyberpunk (or one of its characters) is (being seen as) morally unacceptable. This is just ridiculous. You really need to be more cautious when equating things.
 * I think the low life part of the cyberpunk essence also includes low-life people but it's broader and not constrained to that or even essential.
 * Maybe a synonymous sentence will help: pretty advanced technology; pretty gritty life.
 * By your interpretation it would say: pretty advanced technology; evil people
 * A pretty gritty life often features evil people and morally unacceptable actions being taken by even otherwise good people - but it's not just that.
 * --Fixuture (talk) 21:45, 6 August 2016 (UTC)


 * So, it's obviously been a while with this, and while I'm not that interested in debating the inclusion of a single link, I just recently came across your reply, and I have to be honest, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I think my comparison was pretty clear, since it was directly from the intros of each of the articles. I did mean appropriate, not inappropriate, hence my argument being in favor of linking to that article. Additionally, neither I nor the quote I included equated "low life" with "bad person". If you're still around, I'd appreciate some clarification on what exactly you fund disagreeable.Tpdwkouaa (talk) 07:34, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


 * It is my opinion that the linking of the instance of the phrase "low life" in the lead section of this article to the article titled "Low-life" is a misinterpretation of what is meant by "low life." The omission of the hyphen should be a hint. "Low life," as used in this article, means, if I may quote the user Fixuture, is used to mean "pretty gritty life." The article "low-life" defines the term as a pejorative for people deemed morally reprehensible, which is quite obviously not the same thing. Such people might play a part in a "pretty gritty life," but they're not the defining feature of cyberpunk.
 * Just to be extra clear: I'm not the user you were responding to.


 * The line is an extract for an interview from Gibson and an introduction to his collection (see quote 18 on Gibson's page.) It's more a selling point for the genre he helped develop and an helping line for understanding it. It should be perceived as that I believe. --185.53.227.245 (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree. I was going add this myself, but glad someone already done so. The highest rated definition at urbandictionary is a LOT better: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cyberpunk  Could some please remove or replace the "low life" part? I'd do it myself, but I don't know how the place works.   108.93.181.106 (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The full context of the citation is (from the preface to Burning Chrome) " 'Dogfight' is a savagely effective and brutally twisted piece of work, with Gibson's classic one-two combination of lowlife and high tech." It's not even about cyberpunk, it's about one author's themes. I think it should be replaced with a line that's actually about cyberpunk, describing what we can presume to be it's main characteristic: a juxtaposition of very advanced technology and a dysfunctional, gritty society wielding that technology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1812:1634:9200:40A8:9693:68E9:2EBE (talk) 11:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Female Representation in Cyberpunk
"Some observers cite that cyberpunk tends to marginalize sectors of society such as women and Africans. For instance, it is claimed that cyberpunk depicts fantasies that ultimately empower masculinity using fragmentary and decentered aesthetic that culminate in a masculine genre populated by male outlaws."

I find that while this is often the case in the film side of things, the literary aspect does include many female characters that break stereotypes and demonstrate unique perspectives on gender and its function. These are observable in written works such as Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams, notably in the characters Sarah and her brother Daud, as well as several characters in the events of the first half showing the common cyberpunk theme of body modification for purposes such as transgender changes or androgyny. I think this can be further researched and that these themes in cyberpunk may be of value to many readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PolarisOutThere (talk • contribs) 16:43, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

New Wave?
Too much of this article, including in the introduction, is devoted to the New Wave of SF, which is not cyberpunk. The intro especially should be focussed on what cyberpunk is and its main practitioners or examples, not on the separate New Wave and its authors. Crediting the New Wave as a precursor does not belong in the introduction.

I also think there is too much reliance on one source (inaccurately cited), which is one person's opinion, at least early on. This is Michaud, "Science fiction and politics ..." in Hassler, Donald M. (2008), New Boundaries in Political Science Fiction. (I am correcting the citation.)

Note that Michaud calls cyberpunk a "movement", which I think is accurate. This all the more supports not including discussion of New Wave SF. Zaslav (talk) 08:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Specifically, "Much of cyberpunk is rooted in the New Wave science fiction ... [list of New Wave authors]" is not about cyberpunk, is debatable, and should not be in the introduction. I hesitate to rewrite this, so I'm leaving it, but it is not the best intro.  Zaslav (talk) 08:23, 5 April 2020 (UTC)