Talk:Cyberspace/Archive 1

Gibson: born in S. Carolina, but Canadian?
Gibson is described in this entry as "Canadian", yet the "William Gibson" entry states that he lives in Canada but was born in South Carolina. As far as I know that makes him American - unless he changed citizenships? Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.134.140.18 (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Vinge
An earlier description of Cyberspace (under a different name) is in Vernor Vinge's True Names. Should we mention it here? How about a list of prominent sci-fi authors who wrote about Cyberspace? --Cema 21:42, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * If you have a citation for Vinge, go ahead and mention it under the History section of the article. Kerowyn 08:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I think these references should have its own section (just made it). 84.242.86.47 06:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Pictures
I haven't seen The Matrix, but Wikipedia tells me there are scenes in it where green letters are superimposed on "reality", unmasking it as a virtual construct determined by code. I think that would be a nice illustration of cyberspace - can anybody make a screenshot? (IANAL, but I suppose it isn't a copyright problem - certainly Wikipedia already has a lot of Matrix pictures.) 84.242.86.47 10:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Neo "sees" the code that makes up the "reality" of the Matrix once he "becomes the One" towards the end of the first movie (and apparently sees it that way from then on, but this is never explicitly stated). --Nijyo 05:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Popular Culture
I added Ghost in the Shell. Was very surprised it wasn't mentioned at all in the article, since it borrows heavily from its predecessors, and was explicitly used in the Matrix as the stylistic reference for many visuals. --Nijyo 05:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Good addition, but let's not go overboard. After Gibson's early works, and Snow Crash, many anime and subsequent "cyberpunk" and cyberpunk-influenced works starting elaborating on the idea of cyberspace. Called the Net, Matrix, Metaverse, whatever, we could list them all ad nauseam, but to what end? The article is about cyberspace, and at some point we don't want to confuse a reader too much. Just my two cents. --David Spalding 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

That Weiss column link
I rather liked the Slate reference - admittedly it's been used as a primary source, but I can't find any secondary source saying that "cyberspace" is now used mostly by the behind-the-curve crowd wanting to be cool, i.e. old media and state bureaucracy - which would be nice to have in the article... 89.102.137.122 09:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I concur. I thought it was only "okay," but annoying that the use of "cyberspace" was not the column specifically, but a section of the newspaper. The WHITEHOUSE.GOV link is far more compelling, as an example of crusty, conservative Washington politicos adopting it. Perhaps one by a brick 'n mortar company would work (or a university page). Just my 2&cent;. David Spalding 17:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd like to have more than one reference there (and 3 would be better than 2). I haven't noticed any brick 'n mortar companies talking cyberspace lately, but if you want crusty, what about http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/scitech/cyber/ ? 89.102.137.122 19:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Crusty? Heh-heh. That seems pretty legit. I'll take it. David Spalding | Talk 04:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Formatting of large quotes
I think the Barlow and Sterling large quotes need to be in quote boxes, but I'm not certain on how to implement. If someone with more experience can do it,.... :) --David Spalding 15:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Moved the Hacker Crackdown excerpt to a quote box. Tempted to do it to the long-ish John Perry Barlow quote earlier in the article, but I'm not sure the Quotation format is an improvement. David Spalding | Talk 00:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like it very much, personally - cquote IMHO looks better... 89.102.137.189 16:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Neal Stephensen popular reference appropriate?
One omission that's worth noting, though ... Neal Stephenson's description of the online world in Snow Crash was vivid, compelling, and IMHO utterly illustrative of cyberspace. EVEN though he called it the Metaverse. Hiro Protagonist's role in creating it, and seeing how it had developed by thousands of others "jacking in," gives a good illustration of the early cyberpunk (literature) development of the idea. Too much information, or perhaps good to add after the Gibson citation? I think the MATRIX filmmakers pretty much lifted it from Gibson, Stephenson and Philip K. Dick (short story, "Frozen Journey"), and for my money would quote Snow Crash before The Matrix. ... Opinions welcome. TIA. -- David Spalding 17:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it would be best to expand the Art paragraph (IMHO it fits there best - the whole context section already ranges pretty widely... :-) ) with something about differently called but very typical cyberspaces in SF, some predating Gibson, and illustrate with Vinge and Stephenson. 89.102.137.189 18:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Is statement about "meatspace" accurate?
The article states: Gibson also coined the phrase Meatspace for the physical world contrasted with Cyberspace.

This statement meets the Wikipedia standard of verifiability, in that secondary sources can be found that make this claim, but I'm not sure it's true. None of the sources I've seen quote a passage from Gibson with the word "meatspace" in it. The closest I've found is taken from http://ask.metafilter.com/15851/Origin-of-the-term-meatspace:

Although he doesn't use the word 'meatspace' explicity, I think I'd credit this term in part to William Gibson's Neuromancer. He frequently uses meat as a metaphor for the physical world.

"Strapped to a bed in a Memphis hotel, his talent burning out micron by micron, he hallucinated for thirty hours. The damage was minute, subtle, and utterly effective. For Case, who'd lived for the bodiless exultation of cyberspace, it was the Fall. In the bars he'd frequented as a cowboy hotshot, the elite stance involved a certain relaxed contempt for the flesh. The body was meat. Case fell into the prison of his own flesh."

In contrast, it's easy to find secondary sources that quote specific passages that use the word "cyberspace". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thiesen (talk • contribs) 08:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Cyberspace
There are more things called "Cyberspace". The term needs a "for other uses, go here" page which then can include the Cyberspace role-playing game, for instance. CapnZapp (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Skomorokh  20:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks muchly CapnZapp (talk) 21:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Cyberspace is a term subject to interpretation at a given time and in a given context since it contains concepts and definitions of technologies which never stand still with time nor with application. It is no surprise that there are suggestions of merging 'virtual world' with 'cyberspace' as well as many oppositions to the suggestions. Hence a user or writer using the term should provide his or her own definition so that its full meaning will be understood by the readers. There are two published articles available on the Internet offers a very comprehensive explanation of the word cyberspace in a real application. These articles should be included in the Cyberspace article, at least as references. These two articles can be found at the following links:

Internet - Cyberspace Assisted Responsive Education A comprehensive user manual http://www.icare4learning.com/General/manual.pdf

Cyberspace Assisted Responsive Education implemented on the Internet (I-CARE) ALN Magazine Archives | The Sloan Consortium http://old.sloanconsortium.org/publications/magazine/v1n1/chang.asp These topics included reports of uses of technology, experiences with online ... Volume 1, Issue 1 - March 1997, Cyberspace Assisted Responsive Education.

Any comment on this discussion and above cited papers are welcome. Thanks in advance. (User: Scrammble 2/26/2011)Scrammble (talk) 12:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Remediation
I'm wondering whether the article's statement "Cyberspace draws attention to remediation of culture through new media technologies: it is not just a communication tool but a social destination, and is culturally significant in its own right" glances at Bolter and Grusin's 1999 book Remediation: Understanding New Media? It doesn't seem like a strong connection, but Bolter and Grusin's concepts are well-known and might well be referenced here.-- Wnewbold (talk) 20:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Erroneous Statement About First Use of Term "Cyberspace"
The statement, "The term 'cyberspace' began appearing in fiction in the 1980s (for example, the 1980 Vernor Vinge novella 'True Names', and the 1980 John M. Ford novel Web of Angels)," or more precisely the part of the statement about Vinge and Ford, is false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.68 (talk) 13:39, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok. So what's true? --&mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  |  04:32, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Defaced?
Why does it say "Kirilica" at the start? I'm not a wiki expert, but I quickly checked 'history' and didn't see that this was added. It just seems weird, like a haxorz name, and I didn't see an entry on it on Wikipedia.

Whoops, that was me Jgwinner (talk) 21:45, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

76.94.230.117 (talk) 21:44, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Part of the series on Cyborgs
Even though the terminology cyberspace comes from cybernetics, I am not sure it should be considered as part of the serie on cybords, as in cyberspace can often be accessed via goggles / headsets / suits, hence no link to cybernetics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.57.103.19 (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, cyberspace and cyborgs are two completely seperate topics. I don't think this should be part of any cyborg series. DoctorG  (talk)  22:33, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Cybermen
Can someone modify the 'Pop Culture' section, please?

I know the name has 'cyber,' at the start.

But the cybermen's appeanrence in The Tenth Planet has nothing to do with navigating through a computer network: it's about an invasion of Earth

Cuddy2977 (talk) 20:06, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I removed this line from teh article and I agree it doesn't have naythign to do with cyberspace. DoctorG  (talk)  22:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

First Use of the term Cyberspace
There is an earlier use of this term in the short story Burning Chrome first published two years prior to Neuromancer. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_William_Gibson. I'm not feeling upto editing now, so I'll leave this here if someone wants to do it, that's fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:7631:9F00:8DEA:9D5:AFA3:6235 (talk) 21:04, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

No, the first use of hte term is from Cat Stevens in "Where Do the Children Play", and i thikn we agree that tis where the children play today !!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Do_the_Children_Play%3F AND the offical lyrics are not the same as the sung lyrics. At 8:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DTLkuL2ebk he says 'taking a ride into cyberspace'. WE HAVE A WINNER !!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.8.228.52 (talk) 06:08, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Merge Virtual world with this article?
Virtual world seems to discuss essentialy the same concept as cyberspace; I think those articles should be merged under here.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree (but with a grin). "Cyberspace" was a fictional term coined by William Gibson, and was appropriated for a time to refer to the real telecomms world of modems, BBSs, online services, and finally the Internet/World Wide Web. IMHO it's a subset of "virtual world," which can encompass virtual realities, online MUDs, online games (Xbox, PS2), even a CGI representation of, say, Coruscant, for a film's visual effects. "Cyberspace" doesn't really cover all the varieties of "virtual worlds" which have been dreamt up, innovated, or advertised. If anything, cyberspace is one or two very discrete instances of "virtual worlds." Case in point, the children's playroom in the film THE ILLUSTRATED MAN (the Serengeti with the lions), or the holodeck on Star Trek. All represent "virtual worlds," but aren't "cyberspace." Off the soapbox for now... --David Spalding 00:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree. Certainly there's a lot of overlap, but this page should be about the specific term "cyberspace", its history, connotations and usage. Reading Virtual world, it looks like another kind of virtual reality, with different history and usage. Linking them is IMHO preferable to merging. 84.242.86.47 18:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree. The concepts are very different. --- RockMFR 23:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree as well. There is too much information in this article specific for Virtual Worlds to be included in an article about Cyberspace. A link to this article or a short paragraph about Virtual Worlds should IMHO however be included.


 * disagree. I haven't heard the term cyberspace being used for at least 2 years.. where I am hearing the term virtual worlds being used all the time these days. --Leighblackall 07:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * disagree. Virtual worlds are just neighborhoods in cyberspace AnneStark 19:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * disagree. But V World should be improved! Nuff said. frummer 07:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * disagree. Virtual World and Cyberspace should be cross referenced however with relevant published articles. The following articles are examples:


 * slightly agree. Although there's a history of where the word started in neuromancer, there's a change in how it's used in pop culture later on, where it does interchange virtual worlds with cyberspace. In addition, the WWW part for a person's end would be a virtual world for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 23:32, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

There is actually a lot of overlap with the creation of virtual worlds and cyberspace, as cyberspace is portrayed by bringing the physical world into the digital world, as seen by 80s retro themes and 'surfing the net' gifs of the 90s. There was also a movement of creating virtual worlds. Maybe a benefit would be a section that talks about hte creation of virtual worlds would help: "As such, it is likely that Internet users uploaded some form of representation of the physical world into cyberspace not long after its invention." http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.739.5889&rep=rep1&type=pdf A lot of this happened during Web 2.0, so I'm really not sure why there isn't much of a reference to the Web 2.0 in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 04:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Taking a 2nd side, where I feel that the later definitions of cyberspace interchange with virtual worlds, especially when it comes ot web 2.0: "shifts made it possible for a large population of Internet users to move from being consumers to producers of information: a trend known as Web 2.0." http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.739.5889&rep=rep1&type=pdf. Cyberspace is slightly different (but idk if really) where it's meant to be a hub (one place ot live one's existence), but ended up as multiple locations to interact with and gather information from. Virtual worlds can be multiple, whereas cyberspace is just 1 place for everything - it's one digital space. Hence the term neogeography. I don't believe that the attempts at formation of cyberspace actually fully lead to the entire creation of real virtual worlds, but I'm assuming that cyberspace is the infrastructure and pathways to get to it, and virtual world is the sphere for that infrastructure. So there's one cyberspace per virtual world. Or, is it the other way around: 1 cyberspace and multiple virtual worlds within it? Because there's so much blur between the two concepts (especially since the internet's still in its infancy, that it's too early to tell), it's really hard to define the two, hence the underdevelopment of the articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 05:09, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Design and operation of an Internet realtime conference http://www.springerlink.com/content/x2805j0mt4920217/

Internet - Cyberspace Assisted Responsive Education A comprehensive user manual http://www.icare4learning.com/General/manual.pdf

Cyberspace Assisted Responsive Education implemented on the Internet (I-CARE) ALN Magazine Archives | The Sloan Consortium http://old.sloanconsortium.org/publications/magazine/v1n1/chang.asp These topics included reports of uses of technology, experiences with online ... Volume 1, Issue 1 - March 1997, Cyberspace Assisted Responsive Education Scrammble (talk) 13:00, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Cyberspace Operations
I think we need to pull a couple of the Department of Defense references out of this article and create a separate "Cyberspace Operations" article to devote to the USAF CyberCommand (Provisional), and the other non-Gibson related activities currently occurring in the DoD. I'm just looking for some discussion around this before I proceed. Warren Fish (talk) 01:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I tagged this article as being of top importance to the Computer Security Project. The concept of 'cyberspace' is officially recognized as part of the US National Critical Infrastructure. I think it is beneficial to have a common article for 'cyberspace', provided we can reach agreement on the proportional coverage between 'Internet Culture' Project and 'Computer Security' Project. Regarding 'Cyberspace Operations'. I suggest 'Cyberspace Theater' which puts more emphasis on 'the space, in which defensive or offensive operations are performed', rather than on the operations themselves. What do you think ?


 * -- Equilibrioception (talk) 05:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The articles that need to be updated include Theater (warfare), Theatre of military operations, Information warfare
 * -- Equilibrioception (talk) 05:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Its a busy time of the year for me....but I want to update this. However, at the same time, there is a LOT going on in US DoD wrt cyber.  Its a very sexy (read: lucrative) theme.  When I have a little more time, I'll get on it.  However, I'm not sure if theater warfare, military ops, etc, are appropriate for Cyberspace Operations as they related to US DoD.  Information warfare is dead on though.  Keep in touch and review my work.  P.S. if you want, please add NetOps to the Computer Security Project.--Warren Fish (talk) 02:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Interesting article about the 'end of cyberspace' (but not really, just a transition is how I see it): https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/05/the-end-of-cyberspace/588340/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 05:49, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Intro
The intro to this article needs some serious work, some of the sentences are pretty much an incomprehensible mess of metaphors. Anyone who knows about the topic want to try and rewrite the intro? – Acdx (talk) 07:59, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, except that instead of "mess" I'd say "b∗llsh∗t": the domain of electromagnetics readily identified with the interconnected information technology ; the dynamic realization of electromagnetic energy through the application of communication and control technology ; global control and communications across the electro-magnetic environment. Someone apparently has an electromagnetic fixation. --Lambiam

I tried patching up the intro, but I made it too wordy. I apologize, but it's still a mess. It's just really hard to define what cyberspace really is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 05:59, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Another popular culture entry
I have another popular culture entry with respect to the illustrated concept of cyberspace (the Web, in this context) as interconnected highways run by messengers. The animated show, Twipsy (yes, the Expo 2000 mascot) follows the tale of a messenger who befriends a group of three children from the real world. Perhaps verification from a YouTube search can be helpful.114.77.82.242 (talk) 02:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

That's really cool. I believe there's a lot of pop culture references related to cyberspace that was aimed at kids, as the WWW with its Web 2.0 started to heavily focus on children, as that was the majority of users when the internet went mainstream - with broadband opening up for the world, AOL was kid-friendly, etc. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1999-01-18-9901180227-story.html I really think we should have more pop-culture references with an entire section dedicated to marketing to children (through a combination of multimedia between entertainment on TV and the internet). I mean, Disney, Nick, etc. https://twitter.com/tmnt/status/996057657407606784?lang=en All of this was late 90s, early (I mean no more than early 2003) 00s. A title would be "Children's focus in late 90s/early 00s" with all the references there. I know Wikipedia doesn't want a list, but I feel a list would help to create a better picture of this time period, as it was just little bits and pieces of marketing that comprised this time period to thrust kids online and create - become prosumers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 06:06, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Popular stuff
hawaiisunfun: I think there should be more historic points added to the pop culture section. I am a person who does expect to see a large list of pop culture references. So I would recommend the ones I added in, the points about the Fairly Oddparents. I think there should also be a comparison of what cyberspace looks like, as this article doesn't have really many pictures (and the main picture is of a cyborg, not cyberspace). I mean, where's the pictures of avatars (I mean icons)? There's a difference between the 80s retro look and the 90s web surfer (on a digital keyboard) with computer hardware that they use to surf - like a keyboard, and what they see - a screen with a boxed computer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 23:28, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Hawaiisunfun, sorry, but I removed those examples--in fact, I removed all the examples, and here's why. First of all, these things have a tendency to be just trivial; we could add every literary and cinematic example of people smoking to Cigarette, and we would not have improved anything. Secondly, and this is related, such examples need secondary sourcing, not just to prove it's correct but also to indicate that it's noteworthy. Thirdly, specific to your edits, they included in-line links to YouTube videos and other things, which is not helpful or OK. And I think you would be better off on Wikia with this kind of material. No, the Fairly Oddparents is not the kind of thing we're going to include here, in an encyclopedia, not unless there are serious secondary (preferably academic) sources for it. Drmies (talk) 02:35, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , you've reverted this editor as well; do you have anything to add? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:38, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

If I could find academic stuff on it, could we bring it back? I don't want to do research for nothing. I just don't get the difference between adding in a movie and a TV show, but I guess that's subjective. It said pop culture, and since a lot of companies were kid-centric in the dot com bubble, it would be significant. I found https://sites.uni.edu/yates/Intro/new%20articles%20f09/Corporations%20inside%20your%20head!%208.docx. It shows that in the Web 2.0 late 90s, children's entertainment tried to focus on boys and catered to them - hence the focus on cyberspace. https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=NT5F5DabEc0C&oi=fnd&pg=PA304&dq=cyberspace+nickelodeon&ots=tOUk2LVYAm&sig=x34b_kbi66I9ms4OGmjC3uQANXo#v=onepage&q=nickelodeon&f=false shows the intersection of cyberspace and storytelling, where Nickelodeon had a role in that. This book also defines cyberspace and would be great to add as a definition to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 04:41, 13 December 2019 (UTC)


 * On the topic of the pop culture references, I broadly agree with Drmies. Also note that if you're going to link to TV episodes, be careful to link only to official uploads, since we do not allow linking to copyright infringements. On the edits more generally, the internet was open to the public before AOL. There also seems to be some confusion about what 'Cyberspace' means. It may have meant immersion in a virtual environment at one time, but no longer - Cyberspace is commonly used to refer to internet content in general. - MrOllie (talk) 03:04, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

- That's true - which is why I wanted to put down the historical context of the meaning changes over time. If I limit it to the Nick.com and Wikipedia links only, would that work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 04:42, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, and Nick.com can add nothing here. What you could do is find some real scholarly sources but if your idea of "research" is some Googling, you won't get any farther. Drmies (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You might could read this,, and see what it has to say about Dark City and The Thirteenth Floor. That's actual work that might add some meaningful things to the article. Drmies (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2019 (UTC)