Talk:Cyril White (advocate)

Requested move 3 January 2015

 * disabled manually per instructions on WP "requested move" page. Pdfpdf (talk) 06:37, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Cyril Charles William White → Cyril White (advocate) – According to his entry in the Dictionary of New Zealand Biography, he was known as Cyril White, which is an existing redirect to General Sir Brudenell White. This 2006 move has as its edit summary: "moved Cyril Brudenell White to Brudenell White: he was never called Cyril, and who can blame him?" If that's true, it shouldn't be an issue moving this page over the redirect, and then add a hatnote that cross references the General.  Schwede 66  02:44, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Based on the 'tangential discussion below', I have changed the initial move proposal "Cyril White" to "Cyril White (advocate)", with the existing redirect to become a disambiguation page (option 1 in the 'tangential discussion' below). Given that we have three people of the name Cyril White, a dab page is needed anyway. We haven't quite figured out whether the botanist goes by both first and middle name, or by abbreviation, and it's of course possible that he was known just by his first name. Neither of this matters if we've got a dab page.  Schwede 66  18:09, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Support - All of the reasons are stated on this talk page. Pdfpdf (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Initial discussion

 * Support That sounds fine. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Question - What about Cyril Tenison White? (Botanist with author abbreviation "C.T.White") Pdfpdf (talk) 09:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Question in return - what is the botanist's common name?  Schwede 66  10:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL! It seemed likely that you would ask that, so I looked for information, but didn't find anything particularly definitive. The implications are that he was known as "C.T.": e.g.
 * In his bio:
 * "he encouraged younger scientists and was affectionately known as 'C.T.'"
 * "the annual C. T. White memorial lecture."
 * though conversely, the photo is captioned "Cyril White".
 * The Wikipedia page is headed: Cyril Tenison ("C.T.") White (17 August 1890 – 15 August 1950) was an Australian botanist.
 * National Library: http://trove.nla.gov.au/people/479853?c=people
 * EOAS: http://www.eoas.info/biogs/P000887b.htm
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking into it. There doesn't appear to be a strong case for Cyril White in this case. Hence, there's no need to act on it. He may be Cyril Tenison White or C.T.White, but neither of these affects this move request. Would you concur?  Schwede 66  11:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Short answer: Yes, but ... Longer answer: See next subsection. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Tangential discussion
I see no problem or issue with Cyril White no longer pointing to Brudenell White, and it seems to me that there's no obvious evidence that the botanist had any obvious enthusiasm for the name Cyril. That seems to me to suggest two options:

1) Cyril White becomes a disambiguation page:
 * Cyril White may refer to:
 * Brudenell White (Cyril Brudenell Bingham White, 1876-1940), Australian general
 * Cyril Charles William White (1909-1984), New Zealand musician and advocate
 * Cyril Tenison White (1890-1950), Australian botanist "C.T.White"

2) Cyril White (disambiguation)
 * Cyril White (Cyril Charles William White, 1909-1984), was a New Zealand musician and advocate
 * Cyril White may also refer to:
 * Brudenell White (Cyril Brudenell Bingham White, 1876-1940), Australian general
 * Cyril Tenison White (1890-1950), Australian botanist "C.T.White"

It seems to me that both have problems.
 * 1) leaves CCWW as "Cyril Charles William White" rather than "Cyril White".
 * 2) begs the question (to which we know the answer, but the casual reader probably will not), "Why is CCWW the primary, and not CBBW?"

Food for thought and further discussion? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:49, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * P.S. My current inclination is in preference of option 2. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * In your option 1, the New Zealander should be disambiguated, e.g. "Cyril White (advocate) (1909–1984), New Zealand musician and advocate for the blind". I can live with either option.  Schwede 66  17:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * In your option 1 ...  - Yes. Agreed. (Thanks.)
 * I can live with either option. - Me to. Your choice.
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * But to be clearer: Regarding option 2: Do you think that the "begging the question" issue is any sort of real problem, or am I just being paranoid? Pdfpdf (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Option 3
3) Cyril White becomes a disambiguation page:
 * Cyril White may refer to:
 * Brudenell White (Cyril Brudenell Bingham White, 1876-1940), Australian general
 * Cyril White (advocate) (Cyril Charles William White, (1909-1984), New Zealand musician and advocate for the blind
 * Cyril Tenison White (1890-1950), Australian botanist "C.T.White"

Pdfpdf (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Subsequent discussion
I don't see any part of the new proposal as controversial, so I will be WP:BOLD and implement it. (If I'm wrong, someone will revert me, and I'm OK with that.) Pdfpdf (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Upon further reflection on my part and User:Pdfpdf's good contributions, the proposal is now to move this page to Cyril White (advocate), and to turn the existing redirect into a disambiguation page. This seems to be the most future-proof option, and we don't have to worry about whether the General is the primary topic for a name that he did not appear to have used. @User:Hawkeye7, would you mind commenting again?  Schwede 66  18:09, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the disambiguation page is the best option. If we have three Cyril Whites, the odds of a another turning up eventually are good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. Pdfpdf (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)