Talk:Czech Republic–Poland relations

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AFD of Polish Invasion of Czech Republic
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page. The result was merge to Czech Republic–Poland relations. There is a consensus that this article fails to meet the standards imposed by the WP:NOTNEWS policy. Those who disagree with this consensus suggest that the incident is unusual enough that it will provide lasting notability. Those who form this consensus offered evidence to suggest that it is not unusual enough. This group of editors are split over whether the correct response to this failure to satisfy policy is to delete or to merge. As our deletion policy (as well as the relevant guideline cited by those who feel the article should be kept) make clear alternatives to deletion should be honored. As such there is a consensus to merge appropriate information to Czech Republic–Poland relations which will retain the content and attribution in the case the consensus is wrong and this does have lasting notability. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Polish invasion of Czech Republic​[edit]

New to AfD? Read these primers! [Hide this box] Introduction to deletion process Guide to deletion (glossary) Help, my article got nominated for deletion! Polish invasion of Czech Republic (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)(Find sources: Google (books · news · newspapers · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · NYT · TWL) Non-notable incident that recently hit the international news as a "curiosity story" from abroad. Article fails our WP:GNG, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:10YT, among others. What happened is the following, just to illustrate the situation. Polish troops tasked with guarding the border to enforce the COVID-19 restrictions, crossed accidentally the Czech border in a hilly region, basically in the middle of nowhere. They set their border barriers there without realizing they are several hundred meters in the Czech Republic. The area where this happened is sparsely populated since the expulsion of the native ethnic German population after World War II, so no one really noticed the error until some Czech citizens tried to visit the local chapel (basically a pile of rubble now), and were denied passage by Polish soldiers guarding the border. The whole event is a short funny story without any real weight, yet the sensationalist media outlets throw away dramatic words like "invasion", "annexation" or "occupation", making the event sound a lot more significant than it really is. Therefore, I propose to delete the article, or alternatively redirect it to Czechoslovak-Polish border conflicts. Darwinek (talk) 19:45, 15 June 2020 (UTC) Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Czech Republic-related deletion discussions. Darwinek (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2020 (UTC)Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Darwinek (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Restored church, not a pile of rubbleKeep, I created this after reading this today on BBC, NPR, CNN, and other places. Coverage has been going on for a few days, and there are national Czech, Polish, and German sources as well. The church had been restored by Polish and Czech activists, is not a pile of rubble, and is a site of worship. The incident, while accidental, was a serious diplomatic/military incident. The Czech-Polish border, as all borders inside the EU, has been quiet for decades. The situation of COVID border shutdowns and accidental invasions is very irregular in Europe. Poland and the Czech Republic haven't had a similar incidents from the 1990s at least.--Chuka Chief (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC) Keep or Merge into Czech Republic–Poland relations. It certainly seems to have enough coverage to satisfy the GNG. Whether it's a big enough event to justify its own article or a subtopic of the wider relations between the countries is another matter. Neither article is super long so perhaps it could be merged. Don't need to delete the material though. — Amakuru (talk) 20:07, 15 June 2020 (UTC) Keep - article's subject matter seems notable and worthy of encyclopedic inclusion, and the article itself has sufficient supporting references. - Indefensible (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC) Keep, there is a precedent with such things, the several similar incidents between Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and the standard is to merge the info to the article on diplomatic relations. However, this incident seems considerably more serious than any of the ones between those two countries, in that it seems to have caused a minor diplomatic row. Therefore, I think it has a chance of passing WP:10YT, to the extent it would be better to delete it later if coverage is not sustained in the slightest. If the article is kept, it should be renamed to May 2020 Czech Republic-Poland border incident or perhaps Accidental Polish invasion of the Czech Republic. Devonian Wombat (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC) Keep per above. Multiple, independent, reliable sources giving information about this topic meets the notability guidelines. Perhaps at a later date, it will become clear that this event does not merit its own article and that it should be merged into Czech Republic–Poland relations. Until then, it should stay as it clearly can stand on its own two legs. Mysteryman blue 23:29, 15 June 2020 (UTC) Keep, while there have been a number of similar incidents between Switerland and Liechtenstein, this appears to be a serious, if bloodless, incident with diplomatic reprecussions, as opposed to a couple of troops taking a wrong turn. --Varavour (talk) 01:24, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. North America1000 02:46, 16 June 2020 (UTC)Delete come on. WP:NOTNEWS, especially not sensationalist, inane news. Just because there’s a newspaper story about something doesn’t mean we need to have an article about. This is ridiculous. Volunteer Marek 04:05, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Merge to Czech Republic–Poland relations then delete redirect (maybe also add a see also or a footnote to Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts). Given that nobody was hurt, and it was just a local military error, I very much doubt this can pass the mentioned WP:10YT. WP:NOTNEWS, this is a minor diplomatic incident that got written up because slow news season in Europe, I guess, outside corona news, and it is related. The title is a WP:EASTEREGG, if it is kept, it should very much be renamed to May 2020 Czech Republic-Poland border incident. Amd frankly, if it was properly named like this originally it would likely not end up here, the current name is the gist of the problem, blowing this tiny incident out of proportion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:09, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Comment. If kept, it should be renamed Polish invasion of the Czech Republic. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Keep. The picture in this AfD is wrong, the occupied building was the chapel of st. Anne (Czech Wikipedia) which is an historic building that lays across a bridge from the castle ruins. I think the St. George church was not occupied. The historic chapel has been undergoing major restoration (compare 2012 to 2020). The incident itself is notable and is covered by reliable sources that call it an invasion: "Poland accidentally invaded the Czech Republic in late May and briefly annexed a corner of its neighbour’s territory, the country’s military has admitted" or "The Polish military has admitted it accidentally invaded the Czech Republic last month, but it insists its brief occupation of a small part of the country was simply a "misunderstanding"". Thank god this all ended well and with smiles in the end. What makes this bizarre is that instead of realizing the mistake and withdrawing after it was pointed out in late May is that Polish troops remained on the Czech side until June 11th and imposed restrictions (blocking access, no photos) on Czech citizens. --Bob not snob (talk) 05:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Keep per Chuka Chief. Plenty of news coverage to meet WP:GNG. This looks like perfect DYK fodder too. The precise naming of the article can be addressed after this AfD closes. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Delete - LOL! Keep? Really? This should be deleted per WP:NOTNEWS, but if we decide to keep it, then the title should be changed to "Accidental invasion of the Chech Republic by Poland", as per sources.But seriously, if we cover every newspaper news pumped up to get readers' then this is not going to be the Encyclopedia anymore but a news site. :) Come on "keeper" people :). GizzyCatBella🍁 07:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Merge with Czech Republic–Poland relations. This article shouldn't be a stand-alone, but it would make a good addition to the relation article (part of it ofc). Cheers! Nadzik (talk) 08:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Delete Per WP:NOTNEWS, this is a minor, recent event that isn't notable enough for Wikipedia article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Keep: This event is extraordinary, in the literal sense that it is extremely unusual. The delayed response is particularly striking — in a world of instant communication, it took them two weeks to withdraw the troops. That's an argument based on WP:INTERESTING, but I think the invocation of WP:NOTNEWS here is essentially a WP:NOTINTERESTING argument. o choose one example from above, "if we cover every newspaper news pumped up to get readers" is suggesting that the story is inherently inconsequential, and therefore doesn't meet notability standards. When have we, in human history, treated sending troops into foreign countries and holding (a small piece of) foreign territory for two weeks as an inconsequential event? I am arguing that the very fact that we're treating it as a joke is itself indicative of changes in the last century of European law and practice, and I'm sorry, but that is actually (wp:)interesting. As far as notability standards go, this event has been described as an "invasion" by many reliable sources, including BBC News, NPR and Politico, and that coverage happened two weeks after the original event. — Toughpigs (talk) 14:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Delete or Merge with Czech Republic–Poland relations: This is a great example of WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. It is almost certainly not even a real invasion (an act of aggression) under international law. There is absolutely no comparison between this and Poland's actual invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938.—Brigade Piron (talk) Merge in a very shortened version to Czech Republic–Poland relations. Two-three sentences are enough for "notability" of this unintentional incident. Pibwl ←« 15:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Keep per above. There Tis sufficient material here to stand on its own, and this is an unusual event, certainly covered by many RS, and is important to relations between the two countries. Davey2116 (talk) 15:45, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Delete a total failure of the not news guidelines.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Delete This article is completely ridiculous! Wikipedia should deliver important, serious matter, not such minor or strange events with such detailed description which might suggest that it is something really important. It is such an shamefully unimportant thing! It was such a weird and odd piece of news and it was treated that way in the news and in this article it is treated in a way in which an important events should be described. It is really misleading! And the worst thing is the "background". It has definitely been the accidental thing - the word "invasion" is terribly over the top in this case - and what's more - it is compared with (or shown against) the Polish-Czechoslovak war or with the 1938 annexation of Zaolzie. I have never come across such an exaggeration. It's hard to find a proper word to describe this impropriety. Seriously - what is the connection between this accident and the war of 1919 or the 1968? Ridiculous association. Unbelievable much ado about nothing.--Eduardschnack (talk) 20:11, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Merge as a chapter/section with Czech Republic–Poland relations as a minor diplomatic incident with coronavirus background. If kept, it should very much be renamed to proper and real name, for example: May 2020 Czech Republic–Poland border incident. Julo (talk) 20:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Keep, it is relevant. Per Toughpigs or Chuka Chiefs. --Frettie (talk) 05:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC) WP:NOTNEWS - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Keep or Merge into Czech Republic–Poland relations. In case of keeping consider renaming per Devonian Wombat.Jklamo (talk) 08:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC) Merge Its not trivial as some have claimed, but does it need its own page when we already have Czech Republic–Poland relations, which it falls into. User:Davidstewartharvey Delete and merge into Czech Republic–Poland relations or move to WikiNews, if there isn't article with this topic...--MrJaroslavik (talk) 15:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC) Merge it is reminiscent of events between Liechtenstein and Switzerland, and those incidents are covered in their respective Liechtenstein–Switzerland relations article. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2020 (UTC) Delete Let us be serious. Wikipedia is not a repository of factual jokes about particular nature of Polish-Czech relations, Bacus15 (talk) 21:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC) Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 03:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC) Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. This should be covered briefly in the articles on COVID-19 in these countries. Incidents where parties of European military personnel accidentally cross the border into a neighbouring friendly country are fairly common. Each time it happens there are some silly news stories about it being an "invasion", despite it being nothing of the sort. There are no lasting consequences of these accidents, except possibly for the careers of the junior officers in charge of the military force. This is just another example of this, and definitely doesn't warrant an article - much less a silly one claiming this was an "invasion" and there was an "occupation". Nick-D (talk) 23:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC) @Nick-D:, I agree some of the coverage by CNN and other international media was exaggerated. Czech coverage such as [1][2] and Polish [3] is better. This also prompted an outburst of memes that were all over the place ([4]). This is different from other border incidents (which normally last a few hours). The Polish army occupied a religious shrine for a few weeks and prevented worshipers from accessing it. It also wasn't a junior officer, see https://10blog.wp.mil.pl/u/tn_2_Z2yIS95.jpg where a Polkovnik (Colonel) officer is standing in front of the Czech shrine. The Polish opposition called for the Polish defence minister to resign.--Bob not snob (talk) 05:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC) Czech and Polish coverage is better and more balanced of course, as the incident pertains to both countries, though I wouldn't use Parlamentní Listy as a source - it's a disinformation web portal full of fake news and nationalistic rhetoric. Also, the fact that Polish opposition called for the minister to resign is of no value here. Polish political scene is (always was) a very heated arena where tough words and calls for resignation fly every week for any reason.--Darwinek (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC) Do not delete per WP:ATD. Agnostic on keeping versus merging, but the content (not the title) is encyclopedic and should be kept. buidhe 06:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC) Keep. Significant incident, widely covered in world press. The title appears to be of some concern, and I agree the article could be moved to a better title. Vici Vidi (talk) 09:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC) Keep per Toughpig. This seems to pass WP:GNG and is encyclopedic enough to keep. Not everything in Wikipedia is big world-changing news but that doesn't mean it isn't notable. Swordman97 talk to me 17:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC) Merge with Czech Republic–Poland relations, much as how we cover the many Swiss invasions of Lichtenstein at Liechtenstein–Switzerland relations. Though I fully expect that this would be closed as no consensus—this kind of thing is why we have WP:DELAY/WP:RAPID. Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC) Delete, WP:NOTNEWS applies, or brief mention in Czech Republic–Poland relations. Stifle (talk) 11:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC) Redirect to Czech Republic–Poland relations and briefly mention there. This is much ado about nothing, and the article title is inaccurate, as this was in no sense a real invasion. WP:NOTNEWS applies. As mentioned above, Liechtenstein–Switzerland_relations#Incidents_involving_the_Swiss_military is a template for how to cover such things. Sandstein 17:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC) This incident is much more serious than any of those mentioned in Liechtenstein–Switzerland_relations#Incidents_involving_the_Swiss_military, as discussed by Bob not snob above. buidhe 03:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC) Define 'serious'. The fact that in 2020 we have social media, and memes and such, and they didn't have them back then, doesn't make the incident more serious, just better covered by the media. And I think it is already forgotten. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC) All the Swiss events were a small group of soldiers taking a wrong turn and were resolved within hours immediately after the Swiss were informed of their mistake. The Swiss also didn't take enforcement actions against foreign citizens. In Pelhřimovy a permanent checkpoint was placed in Czech land, forces remained for weeks and took enforcement actions (barring entry and photographs) against Czech citizens. This is not forgotten, Polityka had a 1,200 word piece a couple of days ago titled "What a mess, how Polish soldiers entered the Czech Republic", [5].--Bob not snob (talk) 05:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC) My impression from WP:ARBEE et al. is that in Eastern Europe, excessive nationalist zeal is a pervasive problem that extends into the media of these countries and into Wikipedia. We don't need to support this through our editorial judgments. Covering events from an international perspective, as we do, calling this an "invasion" in the title is just silly. Sandstein 16:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC) @ Sandstein - you have a wrong impression....I would appreciate it if you could restrain yourself from making negative comments aimed at people from that (Eastern) part of Europe. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)Keep - well-referenced, bizarre yet notable incident. Bearian (talk) 15:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC) Merge with Czech Republic–Poland relations, per Alpha3031 who has brought up a similar incident. In two weeks this one-time news event will be forgotten, there appears no long-term effect created by it. Ifnord (talk) 20:04, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

'Invasion'
Calling this situation an 'invasion' is an exaggeration and contradicts the definition in Invasion article. What's more, the text of this article is unbalanced, as most of the text is about a minor incident what suggests much greater importance. Wostr (talk) 13:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed partially. The whole section should be considerably trimmed. There are vast opportunities of expanding this article with real coverage on CZ-PL relations, without this silly incident "occupying" half of the article space.--Darwinek (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2020 (UTC)