Talk:D'Jais

Delete?

 * I am the creator of this page. Before creating it, I made sure that it was "notable" by checking for credible sources. Using an online database of newspaper articles, I found a list of articles at least a page long, mostly from the New York Times. I will add the references shortly. The club has been a landmark in the area, surviving when others did not because of its efforts to work with and support the community and keep up with the times. It is part of shore culture and is mentioned in pop media (though I'm not sure this adds to my argument!), named on "Jersey Shore," etc. Smm201`0 (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't find anything on google that looks like a reliable source that establishes notability, as required by wikipedia (see WP:GNG). If you have lots of relevant articles (see WP:RS) then you should add them asap. andy (talk) 15:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That's where I looked when I first thought of adding a page for D'Jais, and I didn't find anything there either, so I didn't start the page at that time. This morning, though, I went into my university's database for print newspaper articles, and found a lot, in the NYT no less, so I started the page. I have to go to my day job now, though, so need a day or two to add the references. Is that acceptable? I did add one NYT article, but just ran out of time.Smm201`0 (talk) 15:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I have added more references. Smm201`0 (talk) 21:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * See AfD at Articles for deletion/D'Jais. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed some of the text not closely related to references. 139.84.48.251 (talk) 18:24, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I cannot provide live links to the print New York Times articles or posted them online because they are copyrighted. I have access through a university to full text newspaper articles, which is how I located them. Others with access can verify their existance.Smm201`0 (talk) 21:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Rationale for KEEPING D'Jais in a nutshell. D'Jais is a significant a part of youth culture on the East Coast of the US. D’Jais is one of the most, if not the most, famous nightclub catering to college age youth on the Jersey Shore. This bar is iconic enough that when the New York Times (which is the most respected newspaper in the Northeast US, read by people in the highly populated NY, NJ, PA, and CT metropolitan areas as well as many across the world) publishes something about an issue affecting Jersey Shore clubs, they contact D'Jais management for an interview. In addition to brief statements used to support the facts included in the Wikipedia D’Jais page, a good amount of the space in some of the 1/2 to 3/4 page NYT articles is dedicated to D’Jais in particular. For instance, two articles feature both pictures and text pertaining to D'Jais (e.g., "Belmar tries to soften effect of summer invasion" features a 1/4 page picture of Frank Sementa in front of D'Jais and "Is Tourism necessary?" includes a picture of Kipp Connor and D'Jais). The quantity of articles referring to D’Jais is also a sign of its significant notability. There are numerous NYT  articles that cover D’Jais and still others in the Asbury Park Press and local papers (e.g., Coast Star, Coaster). Topics covered include issues related to the tourist industry, impact on local community, sandcastle competitions, charity events, regulatory decisions, reviews, club culture, and general news stories. There are also many web sites and blogs that discuss D’Jais at length, but I chose to focus on the highest quality references to document facts. Smm201`0 (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * To participate in the discussion, please see AfD at Articles for deletion/D'Jais.Smm201`0 (talk) 21:51, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm copying your comments to the AfD to centralize discussion. EEng (talk) 15:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've already made these statements on the AfD page. This is just an overview.Smm201`0 (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The Infamous D'Jais article
CORRECTION: THE REAL DISCUSSION IS BEING HELD AT the AfD PAGE FOR D'JAIS. To participate in the discussion, please see AfD at Articles for deletion/D'Jais COMMENTS LEFT ON THIS PAGE MAY NOT BE SEEN/READ.Smm201`0 (talk) 23:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC) [Misleading direction, that editors not watch or participate here, struck out by EEng]
 * Smm, you need to stop doing this. As described below, this page is for discussion of the article content.  AfD is for the deletion debate (largely centering on notability).  Comments on each page will be read by participants in each discussion. EEng (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * EEng, please don't delete or edit my comments by putting lines through them, changing the format style, changing the text, etc. I made that entry because the person beginning the AfD page had previously redirected discussion to the AfD, and that message had gotten lost in the dialogue. I believe your statement (below) that this is the central discussion is misleading. Smm201`0 (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I took the unusual step of striking out your comments because they were so completely misleading, to wit that what you called "the real discussion" is going on at AfD. There is no one "real" discussion. There are two discussions of two different things.  Your direction could only mislead those who don't understand, who can least affort to be misled.
 * The person who started the AfD left a message (above) telling you to make your AfD arguments at AfD, not here, which is where you kept putting them. You still don't seem to understand the difference between AfD and Talk.  Please read the explanations above and below again.
 * EEng (talk) 03:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You yourself redirected people from this page to the AfD at one point.Smm201`0 (talk) 01:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, even after Anthony Appleyard directed your attention to AfD for AfD discussion, you kept putting your AfD comments here, so I copied your latest, big comment to AfD where it belongs "to centralize discsussion" -- meaning AfD discussion, of course. I didn't realize at that point that you still didn't understand, as you apparently continue to not understand, the difference between Talk and AfD.  Let me repeat: article content, here; deletion/notability, at AfD.  That's how it works.  EEng (talk) 03:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm unsure why EEng moved what I wrote on his talk page to the article talk; with his permission, I think this should be moved to the AfD, but I would prefer it back to his talk. It definitely does not belong here. - Theornamentalist (talk) 01:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * For the reasons just explained, for the third time, above. Your comments were about some edits I made to the article, to which you objected.  That's a content discussion and belongs here. It would be nonsensical to move it to AfD.  EEng (talk) 03:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * These comments were left on EEng's talk by Theornamentalist, and are being copied here to centralize discussion of article content; for the AfD discussion, go to Articles for deletion/D'Jais 

Hey EEng,

''I'm going to politely ask you to refrain from any more non-constructive edits to the article, and to stand back for a little. What you have been removing is reliable and relevant information; I am going to look over the points you've made and your contributions later tonight, and revert what I deem destructive. Please, I ask you to look over the kind of editing you've been doing, and whether or not you want to be the kind of editor who makes these kinds of comments "spoiled girl -- maybe a bleach-bottle blonde?" Aren't you aware of WP's initiative to attract more female aditors? comments like this do not help, and reflect poorly on our community.''
 * While I apoloogize for the bleach-bottle comment in the AfD, my edits to the article were carefully considered and constructive -- see below.

''Anyway, like I said, I will be reverting all relevant information you've removed, as sources can act as supplements to a topic; therefore a one-sentence description with unique information can be used. Ugh, and if it continues after this we can take this to get a third opinion/admin help etc, cos it looks like you've been battling the article for the past few days and one Smm2010. I mean this in no rude way, but D'Jais will most likely pass, the fact that it is being discussed to such a high degree shows that it belongs in an AfD right now, but it meets our minimum notability standards and has plenty to supplement it. -  Theornamentalist 13:55, 8 February 2011 (UTC)''
 * No, each of my removals was carefully explained in the edit summary. In most cases the "sources" were just cut-pastes of the bar's website; in another, a police-blotter "cutesy" aside was treated in the article as a serious source; in a third, the text "some believe it's the biggest in the world" cited to a quote from the bar's owner.  None of these are RS even for article content much less for notability, though here on this page we're disussing content only. However, the non-RS "sources" bloating the article do give an appearance of likely notability that's not there.  I was ready to change my mind about notabilility, in fact, on first seeing your version, until I saw that so many of the sources were, as I say, cut-pastes from the bar's website, leaving only the previous one-sentence tangential mentions here and there.
 * The fact that an article is a AfD does not freeze content discussions here, as you seem to think. Nor is it appropriate for you to invoke third opinion when you haven't attempted to work towards consesus here. If you feel the material I removed is actually well-sourced, please answer here my statements in edit summaries.  Since I see you've let my edits stand for now, I hope I'll hear from you here, giving justification, before restoring material I've removed.
 * To help keep things calm, I'll propose any further changes here first, for discussion, before implementing them, unless they're very minor.
 * EEng (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * See AfD at Articles for deletion/D'Jais.Smm201`0 (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Edits of 28 March 2011
I edited the original information on this page because, some of it was incorrect. D'Jais does not close at 12 am it closes at 2am. In addition, the club was purchased by Kip Conner and Frank Sementa in 1979. Kip Conner and Frank Sementa's names were both spelled wrong as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.156.102 (talk • contribs)

Staceypierce87 changes
Hi Stacey, I reverted your changes because you deleted statements accompanied by credible citations/references. My understanding of the rules is that the goal is to present information provided by references in a neutral manner, rather than neutralize positive and/or negative information. It sounded redundant because (it looks like) the editor was trying to stick very close to the language in the references.Smm201`0 (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Deleting material sourced to Big Moe Productions
I deleted all references and material sourced solely to Big Moe Productions, a nightclub promotion site, not a reliable source for Wikipedia. No great loss, as most of it was promotion. --CliffC (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC) I have no problem with that.Smm201`0 (talk) 17:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)