Talk:Dáil Éireann/Archive 1

Powers
Its powers are similar to those of many legislatures whose legal systems have their origins in common law

Dont think this is a good idea for two reasons.

1. Two common law lower houses: the US House of Reps and the Australian House of Reps have quite different powers.

2. It is technically incorrect coz the Dail is not a legislature--the Oireachtas is.

Its also relevant that the Dail was very consciouslly modelled on the UK Commons.

-Iota (13 Mar, 21:17 UTC)

By-election anomaly
Suppose there is a Dáil seat with 3 members. People vote, and the members returned are 2 from the Mauve party; and 1 from the Taupe party. The Taupe TD dies. There is a by-election. People vote in exactly the same way as they did before. Because of this, a Mauve TD is returned, leaving Taupe with no representation in the constituency.

Does this actually happen like that, or am I missing something? Morwen - Talk 22:51, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * No you are entirely right and it doesnt make for PR. However i think by-elections are rare enough that governments dont usually fall that way. My guess is that when the system started they wanted to keep British tradition of by-elections more than they wanted strict PR. You could have a by-election in which all seats in the constituency go up for election but i think candidates might be tempted to resign at opportune moments to try and gain seats from other parties.


 * STV systems dont usually have by-elections. In Tasmania they recount the ballot papers from the most recent election with votes for the resigning/dead Taupe candidate disregarded so it is possible for another candidate from the Taupe party (or the next most prefered candidate of Taupe supporters), who didnt get elected last time, to win the seat. In the Australian senate vacancies are filled by appointment but a candidate from the same party must be appointed.


 * ...And all of this info should be at Single Transferable Vote but isnt. Have to do something bout that when i get round to it. -Iota 23:41, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Numbers
The numbers for representation of the parties at present didn't add up, so I've amended them to take account of the changes since the 2002 election of which I am aware. In summary: If I'm wrong on any of the above, please post here. --Ryano 12:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Fianna Fáil lost Charlie McCreevy and didn't hold his seat in the by-election. They also lost Rory O'Hanlon to the position of Ceann Comhairle, so 81 becomes 79
 * Fine Gael lost John Bruton but held the seat in the by-eledtion, and they gained Liam Twomey from the Independent benches, so 31 becomes 32.
 * Labour gained the Ceann Comhairle from the last Dáil, so 20 becomes 21.
 * PDs, Greens, and SF all unchanged.
 * Independents lose Liam Twomey to FG, but gain Catherine Murphy from, so no change.


 * Fianna Fail lost Beverley Cooper-Flynn to the Independents. Kiand 17:41, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Nice one, I forgot about her. Of course, they didn't exactly lose her :)  I've updated the numbers accordingly --Ryano 18:19, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Question
Has there ever been a case where someone from Northern Ireland has been an MP in Westminister and a TD in Dublin at the same time? Seabhcán 11:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

No. De Valera was a Stormont MP while Taoiseach, though.

Lapsed Pacifist 17:39, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Another Question
What does Dáil Éireann mean? I know Eireann is Ireland(?). - Keith Greer   19:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Dáil is just an old word for council, similar to those in other languages such as Diet, Soviet, or Parliament. Seabhcán 22:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It literally means something along the lines of Council of Ireland (Eireann is the genitive case of Éire (Ireland) and so means "of Ireland") In reality it has been translated three ways in three different constitutions:


 * The Dáil Constitution (1919) translated it as the Assembly of Ireland ore House of Assembly.


 * The Irish Free State Constitution (1922) translated it as Chamber of Deputies.


 * Bunreacht na hÉireann (1937) translated it as House of Representatives.

Because though the same name was kept but it was given different translations, and each house had a different make-up, role, relationship with the executive, role in financial matters and constitutional existence etc each one of the separate Dála has a separate article on WP. You can see them on the template below. FearÉIREANN \(caint) 22:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Lower Houses of Irish Parliaments


 * I see thanks, (didn't see that Template!) - Keith Greer  [[Image:Flag of Northern Ireland2.svg|30px]] 22:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect name of the country
Since this article is about the lower house of the legislature i.e. where the bulk of law is created and amended, the opening sentence should be legally accurate. 'Dáil Éireann is the lower house of the Oireachtas (parliament) of the Republic of Ireland.' This is inaccurate and should read Dáil Éireann is the lower house of the Oireachtas (parliament) of Ireland. The name of the country is simply Ireland (Art 4, Bunreacht na hÉireann). The Republic of Ireland is only used descriptively (s2 The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948) and is not the official name of the country. It is PoV to use Republic of Ireland, Ireland is the internationally recognised name. I am thus changing the opening sentence to ensure legal accuracy. Iolar Iontach
 * Well i have reverted it back. First off, your resoning completly contradicts its self. The term Republic of Ireland is used descriptively in the context of this article to refer to the state, which does not hold governance over the whole of the island of ireland. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Iolar, there is a long history surrounding the use of "Republic of Ireland" on Wikipedia, I suggest you take a look at Talk:Republic of Ireland in the first instance. --Ryano 10:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I understand that there is a history but that may be changed due to the on-going debate on Talk:Republic of Ireland, to which I have contributed. The description in the statute refers to the form of govenment in Ireland; it is not contradictory. The internationally recognised and official name is Ireland (Art 4, Bunreacht na hÉireann), the citizens of Ireland refer to it as Ireland. This article is about a parliament of the Republic of Ireland which technically does not exist. It is called Dáil Éireann NOT Dáil Phoblacht na hÉireann. The article should reflect legal accuracy since it is dealing with a body that creates and amends law. I accept that there is a need for disambiguation when dealing with Ireland in wikipedia and that 'Republic of Ireland' needs to be used at certain times but not in this instance, where it must be Ireland to be accurate. The use of Republic here is PoV and strikes me as pandering to nationalists. Iolar Iontach


 * In these sort of cases the link style such as Ireland, which produces Ireland maybe appropriate. Alternatively a opening like "Dáil Éireann is the lower...of the state generally called Republic of Ireland". Ultimately pointing directly to Ireland could only lead to a revert war. Djegan 19:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * At the moment the article is inaccurate but I amn't going to edit it without consensus. I think that the link Djegan suggested should be used. Iolar Iontach

Hi Iolar, I think you're neglecting [deliberately ?] the politics inherent in the name change. The post-war Fine Gael coalition changed the name of the state to the Republic of Ireland, and passed the short Act of the Oireachtas that you quote, to copper-fasten the decision which was part of the wider decision to both leave the British Commonwealth, and to end, arguably an ultra vires act, the status of being a British Dominion, with King George VI as Head of State of Eire.

Fianna Fáil refused to recognise the change, and stuck to Éire. Fine Gael considered holding a referendum to amend the now out-of-date name in the constitution but decided it wasn't worth doing.

See the US State Department Country Profile on Ireland and it points out that "The government formally declared Ireland a republic in 1948; however, it does not normally use the term "Republic of Ireland," which tacitly acknowledges the partition, but refers to the country simply as "Ireland."

As a citizen of the state I use the term Republic of Ireland all the time, [when I'm not using the term Free State :;], the official term is Éire, not Ireland, as the Gaelic language has preeminence in law over the English term. The crux of the problem is that Ireland has been used to mean lots of different political entities, from Grattan's Ireland to the Ireland of Brian Boru, whereas the term Republic of Ireland refers only to the political state.

I disagree, as a Southern Unionist, that the use of Republic of Ireland is pandering to Nationalists, I think the exact opposite is true, the use of Ireland, without qualification, is more likely to be well received by Nationalists, as it carries the implied claim over the whole political jurisdiction, including Northern Ireland.

The point you raise about the lower house being Dáil Éireann and not Dáil Phoblacht na hÉireann is strictly true, although I would argue that Dáil Éireann is retained for emotional reasons, the supposed English translation of that has changed several times, which doesn't make much sense.

Let's be thankful that the Parliament wasn't located in Londonderry.:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.125.106.110 (talk) 00:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Ceann Comhairle
I thought the dignity of the office negated any political party affiliation, as is the case with Uachtarain na hEireann -- no? Ben-w 05:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Sinn Féin
I looked on the Dáil Éireann official website and I could not find any information indicating that members of Sinn Féin including Mr. Gerry Adams have been legally elected to serve as members of the Dáil Éireann, therefore I would like to remove all reference to Sinn Féin from this article until such time as a citation is provided showing that Sinn Féin and Gerry Adams are legally members of the Dáil Éireann in the Republic of Ireland. They call me Mr. Pibb 04:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Ireland's election not a form of PR
Contrary to popular belief, Ireland's electoral system is NOT proportional. Proportional representation is an electoral system based on a very simple idea: political parties that receives a certain percentage of the popular vote will receive a similar percentage of seats in parliament. Period. End of story.

This is NOT how the Irish Lower House is elected. Its electoral system is constructed around a single transferable vote within multi-member constituencies based on a quota system. This may be more proportional than plurality (first past the post), but to call it "proportional representation" is simply incorrect. It appears that Sinn Fein have won almost 7% of the vote, but will have only 2.4% of the seats. At the same time, Fianna Fail won 41.6% of the vote, but may win almost half the seats. Some previous Irish elections have been even less proportional than this.

Should we at least place the word "semi" in front of proportional representation in the Dail Eireann article? I'll wait for feedback.


 * Your controversial belief, irrespective of its factuality, would require a citation as the popular belief is that the system is proportional representation, see WP:VERIFY. Notwithstanding it is a curiousity of this "proportional representation" that the seats and votes do not tally and "vote management" distorts it. Djegan 21:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem depends on how you define proportionality, since lower preferences are used to determine the destination of seats in Ireland, comparing the % of first prefs to the % of seats won is not really a fair comparison. Other systems which are thought of as proportional are the list systems used in continental Europe but these too usually involve regional constituencies and produce anamolies e.g. the last election in Spain where the United Left party won two seats less than the Basque Nationalist Party despite polling three times as many votes. While understanding your point, most sources that I've seen describe STV as a PR system. Valenciano 22:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Lets see what the constitution has to say, Article 16.2.5, which deals with Dail Eireann:
 * The members shall be elected on the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote.
 * Djegan 23:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

30th Dáil infobox
In the infobox detailing votes cast, percentages etc. should it not be better to name Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin as the party in Dáil Éireann. Also Ciarán Cannon is the current leader of the PDs. --MacTire02 (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the party leader of Sinn Fein is Gerry Adams, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin is the parliamentary leader of the party in the Dáil. I fail to see the relevance of who the current leader of the (soon to be defunct) PDs is. The infobox relates to the 2007 general election. Snappy (talk) 23:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes but by that logic Bertie Ahern should be placed as the leader of Fianna Fáil as it was he was elected as Taoiseach for the 2007 election. Brian Cowen only became Taoiseach in 2008. And just because the PDs are about to be wound down, that doesn't mean we should be showing an ex-leader who is no longer a member of the parliament as being their parliamentary leader. As for Sinn Féin, the way the infobox is constructed, it appears that Gerry Adams is a member of the Dáil to those who do not know anything about Irish politics. As the box refers to the parliament how about naming Caoimhín Ó Caoláin as the party leader with a subnote indicating that he has such a position within the Irish parliamentary system but that Gerry Adams is the party leader on an all-island basis. --MacTire02 (talk) 23:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also - Pat Rabbitte? 2007 maybe, but current is Eamonn Gilmore. Either say it as Rabitte and change Cowen to Ahern, or update the other leaders! --MacTire02 (talk) 23:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't realised someone has added Brian Cowen, so I reverted that and also updated the infobox to a simplified version. Once again it has nothing to do with current leaders and the fact the the PDs are defunct is relevant, this table shows the results of the 2007 general election, which the PDs contested with Michael MacDowell as their leader. It's a snapshot in time. As for Sinn Fein, they are an all Ireland / transnational party with all the complexity which that entails, so perhaps a footnote can be added saying Gerry Adams is party leader but Caoimhín Ó Caoláin is parliamentary leader in the Dail. Snappy (talk) 00:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fine - if it has nothing to do with current leaders and if based on a platform for election at the time, then I agree with Michael McDowell being shown as the leader of the PDs and Gerry Adams as leader of Sinn Féin (though we do need a footnote for that to show the parliamentary party leader). However the infobox still shows Brian Cowen as leader of Fianna Fáil. Anyway this can be changed to reflect 2007 info? --MacTire02 (talk) 08:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The infobox shows B. Ahern as FF leader. Possibly you need to refresh your browser/clear its cache. Snappy (talk) 01:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Stupid me! That looks better now. Cheers Snappy. --MacTire02 (talk) 08:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)