Talk:Désiré (baritone)

Change to title of article
I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware of this policy, (and my edition of Grove does not seem to follow this format). Is there a link for it the Opera Project page? It does seem anachronistic to me – should it not be the other way round (the full name pointing to the professional/stage name, which is used thereafter throughout)? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 13:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Actor/singer
For information, p20 of Traubner’s Operetta — a theatrical history: "This burlesque of literature [Don Quichotte…] written for the comedian Désiré…", and then quoting Hahn, "In 1847, an overweight and short actor named Désiré, the spoiled child of the Théâtre Montmartre…" Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

(Re-)naming of this article
This article was originally created as 'Desiré' but within a few hours without discussion or references was changed to Amable Désiré Courtecuisse.

The Wikipedia guidance on naming states:

Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens

The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name.

(No distinction is made for nationality, nor for the number of words in a stage name, nor is pseudonym mentioned in the above convention.)

Désiré is the title of the article in Gänzl’s The Encyclopedia of the Musical Theatre, and this word is used at every point he is mentioned in Traubner’s Operetta — a theatrical history (both used as the basis for the original article) - and in contemporary documents. The French Wikipedia article is Désiré (acteur).

I am not aware of any reliable sources where ‘Amable Désiré Courtecuisse’ is used, as in Wikipedia guidance, as the “name used most often to refer to [this] person”.

A full exchange (without final consensus) about this subject took place here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cg2p0B0u8m#Names Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:55, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * As explained at length in the discussion linked above, using a potentially ambiguous single-name 'nickname' style stage name like 'Désiré' is not consistent with other WP articles (e.g. Fanchon Moreau etc). I don't think anyone would seriously consider renaming Elvis Presley as 'Elvis' on the basis of Google hits.


 * Amadeus Online, the main source for performance information, calls him 'Aimable Courtecuisse "Désiré"'. (So changing the title to Aimable Courtecuisse would indeed be an option.)-- Klein zach  03:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The entry for this singer in Kutsch and Riemens' Grosses Sängerlexikon (Munich, 2003) is titled Désiré. In the text, after the life data they state: "der eigentliche Name des Künstlers war Amable Courtecuisse." This 7-volume, 5,371-page encyclopedia of opera singers is probably considered one of the most authoritative sources for information on singers and their names. There is not even a cross-reference entry using his real name, i.e., Courtecuisse, Amable. This book does use cross-references, but in this case they apparently did not find it was needed. Based on this information, I would agree with user Cg2p0B0u8m that the article should be titled "Désiré". (Amadeus Online is a great resource and generally provides complete names, when they are known. That does not necessarily mean that those complete names always meet Wikipedia criteria for article titles.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I also checked Charles H. Parsons' Opera Premieres: An Index of Casts/Performers, A–J, (vol. 15 of the Mellen Opera Reference Index, 1993). There is an entry for "DESIRE", but none for "COURTECUISSE". --Robert.Allen (talk) 15:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * BTW, the current title seems to be incorrect based on Kutsch and Riemens, since Désiré was not part of his real name and does not appear to have been used in conjunction with his real name. (I didn't find the singer in Grove, so I don't see the relevance of Grove to this question. Maybe I missed something.) Also, the entry in Kutsch and Riemens on Fanchon Moreau is titled Moreau, Fanchon (Françoise). According to Grove she was usually "Mlle Moreau" in cast lists, so this would not be a relevant example. Regarding the ambiguity problem, wouldn't Désiré (baritone) be preferable to Desiré (actor)? --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If Kutsch Riemens list him as 'Désiré', I withdraw my objection. Désiré (baritone) would indeed be better than Désiré (actor). -- Klein  zach  23:35, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the comments, and for pointing out the Kutsch and Riemens entry which agrees with Gänzl and Traubner. I don’t have those books at home and forget to look in it elsewhere; I am impressed they have him in! I am not so concerned about whether he has singer, actor or baritone after his name, as there is only one at present.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)