Talk:DB Cargo UK

removed section
Removed this section - much of it better suited to individual loco pages, also info duplicated in the text. For the record here is the cut text:

=== Workings ===


 * Class 08
 * used for shunting and minor freight work. They are mostly seen in EWS train yards and sometimes seen on rural freight lines. Limited to 15 mph.


 * Class 37
 * scattered mostly around the North West of England on the West Coast Main Line. Most have been withdrawn and stored/sold, although a small fleet is to be retained for specific duties. Limited to 80 mph.


 * Class 59
 * used for aggregate transportation from quarries in the West Country. Some Class 59s have been seen on railtours around Yorkshire. Limited to 75 mph.


 * Class 60
 * used for slow coal transport like to Fiddler's Ferry in Widnes, Cheshire. They are also seen on some heavy haul coal and aggregate services. Limited to 60 mph.


 * Class 66
 * used for almost all workings. They are used on most heavy haul workings and certain railtours. Limited to 75 mph.


 * Class 67
 * EWS's fastest locomotives, with a max speeds of 125 mph, four (67004/007/009 & 011) however are limited to 80 mph due to brake modifications for hauling the ScotRail Sleepers north of Edinburgh. These locos are solely operated by EWS. Currently they are primarily used on First ScotRail's three Caledonian Sleeper services north of Edinburgh, and the new 'Wrexham & Shropshire' company use Class 67 locomotives 67012,013,014 and 015 to haul these new services from London Marylebone to Wrexham General. Locomotives 67005 and 67006 also operate the 'Royal Train'. They also are used for freight and weed-killing trains. They have a high axle-load, and are subject to severe speed restrictions on many overbridges, on lines that they were never intended to run over.


 * Class 90
 * EWS's Bo-Bo mixed-traffic electric locomotives has a max speed of 110 mph, although apart from occasional railtours on the West and East Coast Main Lines or on loans to 'Virgin Trains' the usually operate at 75-80 mph. They are used all over the country for freight work on electrified lines. Their most notable passenger operation is the First ScotRail Caledonian Sleeper between London Euston and Scotland on the WCML where the trains are formed of sixteen coaches - the longest passenger train length in the UK.


 * Class 92
 * the youngest AC electric locomotive in the EWS fleet. They were built to haul freight and passenger trains through the UK, France and Belgium although in service they have never operated beyound the French Channel Tunnel freight terminus at Frethum, near Calais. They are very capable of hauling heavy loads and reliable. One has been seen pulling a coal train consisting of two Class 66s, a Class 60 and a Class 67. This locomotive can be used on 25 kV AC overhead lines and also DC 3rd rail lines due to its dual voltage system. Limited to 90 mph (75 mph on freight trains).

07:22, December 31, 2008 87.102.88.238 This is this users IP adress and time of edit.

DB Schenker
I don't really know what to do - I think a new article is what is needed, I suppose a lot could be copied over....

Any suggestions please.

Train image - Red
DB Schenker train image - anyone got any more - it would be usedful - like the photo - but the fisheye effect is a bit much.Carrolljon (talk) 23:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

There's a 3 images of 59206 in DB Schenker livery here which are licensed under a creative commons license. Zabdiel (talk) 12:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ThanksCarrolljon (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

History
If anyone can, it would be nice if the history section could be expanded a bit - to cover briefly the period between creation and sale to DB. Thanks.Carrolljon (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Locomotive details
The section containing locomotives inherited from british rail now includes all loco's including those, such as the 66 and 67 that were introduced after the creation of EWS. I have altered the headings and reshuffled the list. Are there any objections to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.143.82.208 (talk) 16:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

There was no discussion about the removal of the current fleet, I think that this is still relevant. I have reintroduced the information with the revised heading of Final fleet at rebranding. Chris sized packages (talk) 12:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Except the european fleet doesn't work for EWS, it works for Euro Cargo Rail a separate company. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FengRail (talk • contribs) 13:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Traction and rolling stock" section is marked for expansion. Is the intention to include wagons as well as locomotives? If so, I suggest the format be changed from a huge table with pictures to a simple list with links to relevant pages. Biscuittin (talk) 12:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

New article
Since 1st Jan 2009 the company has been renamed DB Schenker Rail (UK) Ltd.

Any new information about activities post this date should probably go in the new article therefor...FengRail (talk) 22:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Separate page
There really needs to be a SEPARATE page for English Welsh & Scottish Rwy. These are two separate companies and thus need two separate pages, for an example check out Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway, Burlington Northern Railway & BNSF Railway.--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 05:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This has bugged me since I noticed it happened. What happened to the English Welsh & Scottish Rwy. page? Was it deleted, the DB Schenker Rail (UK) page copied over it, or were all links to EWS redirected? Removing that page is removing a little over a decade of UK railroading history,, this is one of the few companies to survive from British Rail's fall, to up till recently.--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 08:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Navigators (talk • contribs)
 * The EWS article was moved to this name. My understanding was that EWS and DB Schenker Rail are not separate. DB bought EWS and later renamed the company to DB Schenker Rail. I thought this was just a rebranding exercise to bring DB's EWS subsidiary inline with their corporate brand. As such EWS still survives just under a new name, and part of DB Schenker Rail (UK)'s history is the history of the company under the previous name, EWS. The other major problem was the massive amount of unsourced content in the EWS article. When you stripped much of that out there wasn't a lot left so it didn't seem to make sense to keep a separate article when all that had changed was the name. Adambro (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added some references but more are needed. Biscuittin (talk) 12:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

R-added the original Traction details
but I don't have any cited sources (other than the obvious, [i.e. that EWS used class 60 because there are Class 60s in their livery), So Anyone feel free to make corrections, I had to trim a few of the longer ones because the original set up was a list, so a few of the bigger descriptions didn't fit real well.--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 01:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

small a
why was this "a" in - I couldn't find any explanation?83.100.138.149 (talk) 00:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Class 09
Just noted it said Class 09-26mph...It was close but they go at 27.5. Just thought I'd make that clear :) Tpxpress (talk) 18:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

/* Traction and rolling stock */ Removed Cleanup notice.
The use of the 'EWS' and 'DB Schenker' is correct.

Anything to happen (such as withdrawn stock and acquiring stock) before 2009, was under EWS, or English, Welsh, and Scottish Railways.

Anything After 2009, was under DB Schenker.

--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 02:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Traction and rolling stock
removed a section see text below ==Traction and rolling stock==

There are a couple of issues here: Primaryly the locomotive's own articles need improving, so that relevent sources and info can be used here. A gallery of every single locomotive ever owned by EWS is almost certainly not necessary. The coverage here should almost certainly be sentences with links to the relavent loco articles. No more than 3 paragraphs I would guess.
 * The 'legacy' unit like the class 31s that didn't last long probably should be covered in a paragraph.
 * The locomotives introduced eg 66 67 could have more info - but the bulk of the material should be in their own articles.
 * Locomotives like the 56 58 which lasted longer and went on to be sold elsewhere need this mentioning, but again - most info should be in their own articles.

The second point is equally important:
 * Needs info on wagons - in particular the HTA coal wagons, the covered steel wagons etc introduced should have just as much about them.

All this needs to be verifyable too WP:VERIFY. A livery gallery is likely reasonable, but not a huge table.Imgaril (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

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Fleet list - not right
Sort of things a "fleet list" should cover:
 * 1) History - from foundation onwards
 * 2) An overview of units at formation (or disestablishment) is probably a good idea
 * 3) Dates of introduction or removal of major classes
 * 4) Significant non-motive power lists - eg in this case - wagons
 * 5) Expanations of reasons behind changes in fleet
 * 6) Other possibilities = major/long term contracts (not minor spot hire, but be cautious if a proper overview cannot be made)

The current list just covers the present, the loco number lists are probably too detailed - essentially trivia. It seems to be based entirely on http://www.abrail.co.uk/diesellocodetail.htm - so why not just link to that in external links? - It seems a waste of time to duplicate it, and then discard info everytime it changes.Prof.Haddock (talk) 15:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅, while a fleet list is valid it should be done at a point in time and state so, i.e. As at August 2014 the fleet comprised of...., from a valid source. It can then updated periodically maybe every 6 months or so, but not every time a locomotive enters or leaves traffic. Bbjet (talk) 09:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

TRANSRAIL FREIGHT LIMITED
To say the company was previously called "TRANSRAIL FREIGHT LIMITED" is a misinterpretation of the companies house data http://data.companieshouse.gov.uk/doc/company/02938988 - well ok I think that data is not sufficeintly detailed to be taken as "fact" (even if it has a defined legal meaning)

Please read the article and the references rather than relying on a "trick of accountancy". It's 100%certain that Transrail was acquired by the N&SR consortium as where LoadHaul etc. Clearly some accounting shuffling has gone on. The CH link is not showing the full picture.

The company history is well known and documented (in the text) from official sources - the company was established as "North and South Railways" and absorbed "transrail freight".

eg try The Official History of Privatisation: Popular Capitalism, 1987-97 David Parker p.480.

or http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1996/nov/27/rail-privatisation

Also something wrong with this link (see below) (maybe just a typo)

Categories
There has been a disagreement as to which year the company was formed and thus the year to be included in the Categories section.

Editor A believes it should be 1995, as this is when EWS was formed, and the DB Schenker purchase in 2007 and subsequent 2009 renaming was just that. Bit like someone getting married, just because they change their name doesn't mean they are born again.

Editor B believes should be 2009.

Anyone else care to offer an opinion? Bbjet (talk) 15:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I explained this on your talk page - I'm not debating whether or not EWS was formed in 1995 - it was.

(reposted explanation)


 * please see :Categorizing_redirects


 * If you take a look at Category:Railway companies established in 1995 you will see that ESW is listed there.

Prof.Haddock (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Fleet details
A partial solution (to problems listed above) exists as the site http://www.abrail.co.uk/diesellocodetail.htm has been archived ( eg https://web.archive.org/web/20070701000000*/http://www.abrail.co.uk/diesellocodetail.htm ) from 2007. (but misses 2009-10)

I would suggest sampling at intervals of approximately 1 year to build up the historical picture. If better sources arise use them...

If will replace the current problematic section with content from 2013. (not sure of the accuracy of 2014 data). Prof.Haddock (talk) 22:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Source is unreliable, EWS have not operated 37s for at least 5 years and the last 47s were withdrawn in mid-2004. D47817 (talk) 00:00, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Note - the list lists the fleets, not what is being operated (eg at the top it notes "Available and Stored Diesel Locomotives") - if a 37 or 47 exists in EWS/DBS ownership then it will be on the list.. Taking that into account - is the list still unreliable ?


 * While I'm here - I was going to note to the other editor - in terms of loco usage etc - it might be better to cover that (and reference) on the individual class articles - eg British Rail Class 67 has an improving coverage of usage - all we need here is an overview (in my opinion) - I don't see a need to duplicate work across 2 articles. In terms of spot hire etc - it may become approaching trivia on this page to cover all that detail, and might be better covered on the loco articles.Prof.Haddock (talk) 01:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The source is unreliable, something like the annual Platform 5 guide would be a better source.. It also fails WP:Original as it is a WP:Fansite.


 * Presume you are referring to the Loco Haulage for Passenger services section. Think it appropriate to retain, but agree need to clear of spot-hire. I have only included deals that were long-term (6 months +) and/or regular. Have tried to avoid dates and places, as think this would bog the section down. Likewise for the exports and freight sections. Though think it is appropriate to mention contracts like Royal Mail, given its size. D47817 (talk) 10:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It seems you don't trust that source - so be it. It's entirely your choice on the fleet details - you seem to be doing a good job on that - I was just making a suggestion, regarding avoiding duplicating work.
 * every time you "edit" the article you undo work I did to the text - such as formatting references, etc.
 * Please Stop doing it. I will simply revert and re-add the useful content you added until you learn to edit without undoing other peoples work.
 * As far as I can tell the only new content you added was the telegraph reference
 * ... If I missed something and you point at it I will re-add it if you want.
 * references are not usually placed in the lead, when present in the body
 * As per "1995" establishment - see section above where it is explained, see Talk:DB_Schenker_Rail_(UK)


 * also Please find sources that state what you are trying to say, rather than rewriting text to a version that is not supported by the references given
 * eg to re-add
 * The government had stated that one of the benefits of privatisation, would be increased competition with the companies having owners, but the sale of the first four freight companies to the one owner indicated this was not a high priority


 * I'm not disagreeing with this - but - is it not really what the sources (given) say - anyhow - discussion of the aims of privatisation should be covered in Privatisation of British Rail not attempted here - this is an example of avoiding duplicating effort, when work is better done in another article. Prof.Haddock (talk) 13:21, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 60163 Passing through Chester station.jpg

Steam Operations section
Do we really need this section?


 * It is unreferenced
 * These aren't engines owned by DB, or on long-term lease. It's just a list of steam engines that DB could hire.
 * Note that two of these - the LNER Class P2 replicas, haven't been built yet.
 * It looks like WP:LISTCRUFT.

This is clearly not part of DBS's core business. Should this section be tidied up? How? Maybe removed entirely? Tony May (talk) 07:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:EWS (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:34, 11 January 2024 (UTC)