Talk:Dae Jo Yeong

Information laundering
It looks like 218.48.41.229 played Chinese whispers (or Korean whispers?). Maybe the starter provided accurate information, but while it was passed by those who didn't check the sources, it became hopelessly inaccurate.


 * while more accurate Korean records state that he was an influential general of Goguryeo.

I don't know what "more accurate Korean records" refer to. If he/she means Samguk Sagi or so, that's wrong. As I explained at Talk:Bohai, these Koreans put much faith in the Jiutangshu and degrades the Xintangshu for nationalistic reasons. As you know, both the Jiutangshu and Xintangshu are Chinese records, not Korean ones. In fact, Korean records do not make a significant contribution to the history of Bohai. 218.48.41.229 knew that some Koreans claim Da Zuorong was Korean, but did not know which records their claim is based on. Instead of checking historical sources, 218.48.41.229 exercised his/her imagination. Of course, "more accurate" and "influential" are groundless. 218.48.41.229 spoke these adjectives at random.


 * after many conflicts with Tang China, he declared himself "King of Goguryeo," in relation to his Goguryeo backround.

Groundless again. "many conflicts with Tang China" are not confirmed. All we know about the conflict with the Tang Dynasty is a series of battles which ended in the Battle of Tianmenling. It seems that Da Zuorong's Jin Kingdom did not make contact with the Tang Dynasty until they were reconciled in 700s because the powerful Gokturk exercized its influence on the region between them. &#23660;&#22865;&#20025;&#21450;&#22874;&#30433;&#38477;&#31361;&#21413;&#65292;&#36947;&#36335;&#38459;&#32085;&#65292;&#21063;&#22825;&#19981;&#33021;&#35342; (&#33290;&#21776;&#26360; &#28196;&#28023;&#38778;&#38824;). &#26044;&#26159;&#22865;&#20025;&#38468;&#31361;&#21413;&#65292;&#29579;&#24107;&#36947;&#32118;&#65292;&#19981;&#20811;&#35342; (&#33290;&#21776;&#26360; &#28196;&#28023;).

And he claimed himself the King of Jin. We cannot confirm that 'he declared himself "King of Goguryeo,".' --Nanshu 01:08, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You can't. But Japanese records can. by Bezant

Hehe, can you cite your primary source? In the first place Bohai did not sent envoys to Japan during his reign. --Nanshu 13:50, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

-
 * He was killed in 719

Which source claims this? --Nanshu 01:08, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Category:Korean rulers can be misleading. It is not clear which "Korean" means in this context, ethnicity or geography, and if it is the former, then it is Korean POV. Therefore, the category should be Category:Rulers of Korea since his kingdom controlled some part of the Korean Peninsula. --01:08, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Korean historical records that writes Da Zuorong as a Goguryeo general are <&#26032;&#32645;&#21476;&#35352;> and <&#24093;&#29579;&#38907;&#35352;>.

The primary source Bezant mentioned are diplomatic records of envoys that Bohai sent to Japan. If you think Bohai never sent envoys to Japan, you are seriously mistaken.

Merge
There is a matter of fact, or perhaps just of nuance, at issue here, and i am not qualified to decide it. On the other hand, there are several reasons for carrying out the merge in the direction of, for the time being, keeping Da Zuorong as an article and turning Dae Jo young into a redirect to it: IMO, the claim that modern Chinese sources contradict a previous consensus could be a powerful arguement for the change, but that arguement has only be hinted at so far. So all factors indicate to me that DJy be merged, as to history and content into DZ. I shall do the content merge pretty much by dumping the DJy content in at the end of DZ, not bcz that makes a good article, but in the hope that editors with more subject knowledge will clean up the mess i will be leaving. --Jerzy•t 17:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) DZ already existed when DJy was created, and while it can be argued that the DJy article should replace the DZ one (by means of a rename and editing), creating a competing article is a wrong step and must be remedied by merging.
 * 2) DZ is the older article (by a factor 13 months to 2), with 7 edits by registered users compared to one by an IP (and a rebuttal in DZ by an IP), and can safely be called the better developed article. Switching the name at this time would accommodate the DJy PoV to the detriment of the clarity of the more developed one, and overturn the status quo, without a convincing showing of a need for the change.
 * 3) At present, the only advocates for the change are too unfamiliar with WP procedure and, based on their writing so far, too little skilled in expressing themselves in English for it to be likely they can mount a clear enough arguement to prevail in this English-language forum -- except with "hand-holding" that is likely to put excessive demands on others involved in the discussion.

Pre-merge histories of the two "lineages"
The revisions made to the article Dae Jo young have been incorporated into the page-history of Da Zuorong. The pre-merge histories are preserved in this section, and accompanied by a tool for interpreting the combined history.

History of former article "Dae Jo young"

 * 10:17, 12 August 2005 PuzzletChung ({ {merge|Da Zuorong}})
 * 15:43, 9 August 2005 220.127.90.30
 * 15:39, 9 August 2005 220.127.90.30

Previous history of "Da Zuorong"
--Jerzy•t 17:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 22:48, 12 October 2005 Whlee m (tianmenling)
 * 22:48, 12 October 2005 Whlee m (tianmenling)
 * 10:18, 12 August 2005 PuzzletChung ({ {merge|Dae Jo young}})
 * 17:44, 18 July 2005 Visviva (specificat)
 * 08:50, 6 June 2005 Babelfisch (Pinyin corrected, Wade-Giles added, McCune-Reischauer corrected)
 * 07:19, 26 May 2005 221.155.230.196
 * 07:18, 26 May 2005 221.155.230.196 (This article is obviously from the biased Chiense perspective. Added the controversy on this issue.)
 * 12:17, 24 March 2005 Saga City m (grammar)
 * 14:34, 8 March 2005 PuzzletChung m ({ {chinesename koreanname}})
 * 01:06, 1 January 2005 Nanshu
 * 19:23, 23 September 2004 Mgmei
 * 19:11, 23 September 2004 Mgmei m
 * 19:03, 23 September 2004 Mgmei (partially translated from chinese. if you think he's ethnically Korean, well, don't shoot the messenger here)

History analysis tool
The group of three italicized entries reflect edits made on Dae Jo young; the non-italicized, Da Zuorong. Bear in mind that using "last" to compare an edit italicized here with an unitalicized one will be misleading as to what changes the editor made in the later one. --Jerzy•t 18:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 17:37, 19 October 2005 Jerzy m (Dae Jo young moved to Da Zuorong)
 * 22:48, 12 October 2005 Whlee m (tianmenling)
 * 22:48, 12 October 2005 Whlee m (tianmenling)
 * 10:18, 12 August 2005 PuzzletChung ({ {merge|Dae Jo young}})
 * 10:17, 12 August 2005 PuzzletChung ({ {merge|Da Zuorong}}) 
 * 15:43, 9 August 2005 220.127.90.30 
 * 15:39, 9 August 2005 220.127.90.30 
 * 17:44, 18 July 2005 Visviva (specificat)
 * 08:50, 6 June 2005 Babelfisch (Pinyin corrected, Wade-Giles added, McCune-Reischauer corrected)
 * 07:19, 26 May 2005 221.155.230.196
 * 07:18, 26 May 2005 221.155.230.196 (This article is obviously from the biased Chiense perspective. Added the controversy on this issue.)
 * 12:17, 24 March 2005 Saga City m (grammar)
 * 14:34, 8 March 2005 PuzzletChung m ({ {chinesename koreanname}})
 * 01:06, 1 January 2005 Nanshu
 * 19:23, 23 September 2004 Mgmei
 * 19:11, 23 September 2004 Mgmei m
 * 19:03, 23 September 2004 Mgmei (partially translated from chinese. if you think he's ethnically Korean, well, don't shoot the messenger here)