Talk:Daimler Reitwagen/Archive 1

Article structure
I've come here through a DYK review. Nice work! If you'd like to improve the article further, then article structure would give you good gains. The lead is supposed to summarise the main points of the article in a succinct way. It's currently too long, and it contains too much technical detail. For the length of the article currently, I'd say it should be one paragraph, and two at the most, long.

Keep up the good work. I see that some of you have also worked on other early motorcycling articles.  Schwede 66  17:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Not a motorcycle
In this and the linked articles, there is detailed discussion as to whether this should be considered the first motorcycle, based on the type of engine and the steering geometry. Surely the essential point is whether the device actually has two wheels, or the four wheels seen on this contraption? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.213.130.74 (talk) 13:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * These are simply citations of arguments that various experts use. You are free to find flaws in their reasoning. Some stick with the essentials (two wheels and power), but others, like Kevin Cameron, say what matters is how much connection or influence it had with later generations of machines. This tactic is used both for and against the Reitwagen. L. J. K. Setright, Melissa Holbrook Pierson and several others feel there is no definitive answer. As long as people can't even agree on definitions it's probably not going to ever be settled.

--Dbratland (talk) 20:39, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Even if the Petroleum Reitwagen were not the first motorcycle, which is irrelevant anyway, it is the first IC engined motor vehicle, beating the Benz automobile by several months. The Reitwagen is also an Otto engine while the Benz was a Day cycle engine. Krontach (talk) 01:06, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are enough AUTHORITATIVE sources that say the Reitwagen is the first motorcycle that I se no reason to cater to revisionists. Krontach (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are also enough authoritative sources who say it is not, which you must be aware of because I have given them to you in copious detail. Please stop this. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what has happened here, but perhaps through the editing of well-meaning advocates for one position or another, this article is not very clear at first about whether this vehicle had two wheels or four. That fact should be in the first sentence. Instead the second section begins: "The Reitwagen's status as the first motorcycle rests on whether the definition of motorcycle includes having an internal combustion engine. The Oxford English Dictionary uses this criterion.[16] The use of four wheels instead of two also raises doubts.[1][11] Even if the outriggers are understood only as auxiliary stabilizers..." This is the first we know in the article about the number of wheels and the outriggers (outriggers should perhaps be linked to something appropriate.) I think the beginning of this article needs to be rewritten to clarify what this machine looks like and I am leaving it up to someone who knows something about the vehicle. 24.27.31.170 (talk) 01:13, 29 August 2011 (UTC) Eric

Errors on this Page
The name of this machine is the Petroleum Reitwagen, which means riding car. It was created solely to prove that an Otto engine could be made small enough to power a vehicle. Daimler never made another two wheeler.

The Roper is dated by the Smithsonian Institute as dating from 1871. Michaux's name is not on the patent for the machine that is called the Michaux-Perreaux steam velocipede. The Copeland is not known to have actually been built as the image of it most commonly found is an artist's impression. Gasoline was NOT the fuel used by the Grandfather Clock or the Daimler's Dream engines. They ran on Ligroin. Gasoline was not available until 1908. The first gasoline filling station was created in 1910. Prior to that all motorists used a fuel which had a trademark name of Ligroin and was was used as a scalp treatment. Motorist purchased their fuel and tested it with a hygrometer so that it was within the limits of what their engines could endure. It was considered to be so volatile and dangerous that Daimler used the term Petroleum on the Reitwagen patent application to disguise the fact that it was in fact Ligroin.

The Otto cycle certainly was not the most popular engine. It has gained more popularity on a percentage basis in some parts of the world only due to the fact that Day and Clerk cycle engines are banned due to pollution restrictions in some parts of the world. If not for engines such as the De Dion-Bouton, Aster, Motosacoche, Zedel and others which happened to be Otto cycle engines the Day cycle would have dominated early on. From 1928 when DKW became the world's largest maker of motorcycles they did so with Day cycle engines. DKW, NSU, Triumph, Jawa, CZ, Bultaco, Ossa, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Royal Enfield, Harley-Davidison, BSA, Moskva, IZH, and MZ to name but a few all produced Day engined machines.

Today the Otto cycle engine in automobiles is being outsold in some parts of Europe by a huge margin, by Diesels. The Diesel engine has long dominated in Shipping, Trucks, Military Vehicles, Stationary applications and continues to gain share. Hayes Diversified Technology produces the M1030 Diesel motorcycle for the United States military.

Otto engine technology eventually caught up.

The widely used term in English for motorcycle was moto bicycle. The first use of the word motor, instead of moto, came in an advertisement from Waltham MFG. for the upcoming Orient-Aster of 1900.

First Motorcycle
There are several candidates for the first motorcycle.
 * 1) 1885 Daimler/Maybach Petroleum Reitwagen
 * 2) 1894 Hildebrand & Wolfmüller Motorrad
 * 3) 1899 Laurin & Klement Slavia A
 * 4) 1900 Werner Brothers Motobicyclette

The H&W is considered as it as the first two wheeler that conformed to a later standard appearance of a motorcycle. It was however just a converted steam velocipede.

The Laurin & Klement is considered because it was the first purpose built moto bicyclette.

The 1900 Werner is considered as it was the first moto bicyclette with the engine at the very bottom of the frame as is the custom with modern motorcycles although the L&K is almost identical in this respect, and older.

The technology to create a modern bicycle, let alone a motorcycle, did not exist in 1885. The wheels and tires of that time at their most advanced were solid rubber (and white).

Daimler's first engine was the Daimler's Dream engine of 1883. The Grandfather Clock engine came two years later. Krontach (talk) 23:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect statement in talk history
The Benz engine is most decidedly NOT in production and was not made for very long. The Benz engine was a 2 cycle engine. Daimler Did exactly what he set out to do which was to motorize, automobiles, boats, and other vehicles. The Daimler Maybach V-twin is based on the Grandfather clock engine, just with two cylinders.

Benz had no part in Daimler-Benz near this time. Daimler was already dead, and Maybach had left before the two companies merged.Krontach (talk) 00:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Oxford Definition
I don't agree with the Oxford Dictionary definition of a motorcycle that is published here. I just now pulled this up, "a two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and has  no pedals" which is correct. This came from the Oxford Dictionary's online reference.

The Britannica Dictionary says, "a two wheeled motor vehicle having one or two saddles."

The US (DOT)has a simple definition: "Motorcycle means a motor vehicle with motive power having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground."

www.vca.gov.uk Category L3e - Motorcycle – Two wheel, without a sidecar with an internal combustion engine capacity greater than 50cm3 and/or a maximum speed greater than 45km/h. Category L4e - Motorcycle – Two wheel, with a sidecar with an internal combustion engine capacity greater than 50cm3 and/or a maximum speed greater than 45km/h.

By the way, the side wheels are training wheels. They are intended to continuous contact with the ground and... they could be removed. Is a bicycle a cart because of training wheels?

The "designed for travel" phrase has wide ranging implications. A short range vehicle that can travel only a mile or two is NOT a motorcycle. I suspect this is left over from an earlier time when it was desired to exclude steam velocipedes from being considered valid vehicles. Their inability to travel any considerable distance is a reason to disqualify any steam vehicle from consideration on an historical basis and is also the reason the Steam Rail transport died out in the face of competition form the Winton Diesel.

This fact tends to be ignored. As I was saying before, if it has pedals, it's a moto bicycle. The Oxford Dictionary, right now, today is saying the same thing.

Another point of logic. In other definitions the point is made that a motorcycle is designed to travel on two wheels. If you watch the video of the Reitwagen being driven around the kurpark you'll see that it is often on it's two wheels and that both outriggers are elevated so that when the device is perpendicular to the road surface it is indeed on two wheels.

Krontach (talk) 01:28, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The dictionary at http://oxforddictionaries.com/ is an abridged version of the OED2. So what? It only demonstrates, once again, that there are multiple definitions which don't agree with each other. As I've said repeatedly. We do not have the power to settle the disagreement because Wikipedia does not publish original research. It's worth mentioning that readers are smart enough to make up their own minds which definition of motorcycle they believe, if you give them complete information. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment on revert
There are so many different issues here it's impossible to know where to begin. There are facts mixed up with opinions and it's very hard to follow. I don't want to get into a point by point discussion when it is this muddled.This edit on Motorcycle history provided a convincing source along with the many sources cited already on this article that should put to rest your the claims about gasoline. If you have a source which states clearly it didn't use gasoline, cite that source. Please try to be succinct.As far as this edit goes, once again, the sources cited are crystal clear. Please clearly cite your source for the changes you are making.I would also mention once again, as has been pointed out on other talk pages, that Wikipedia's policy of WP:NPOV means that we take a balanced view of what the experts say; we don't discount and delete recognized experts just because one Wikipedia editor thinks he's right and they're wrong. We don't settle disagreements between authorities. We describe what they say and leave it at that. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:56, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I do. Gasoline was NOT available as a fuel until AFTER 1908. In one article I found today, it even specified the Specific Gravity of the fuel that was expected to be used.  Until sometime after 1910 a motorist would go to his local apothecary with his own hygrometer and buy his light fraction AFTER measuring it's specific gravity to ensure it would run his engine.  The original Baum Rating system was abandoned and replaced by the use of specific gravity which proved to be effective.


 * The fuel used by motorists, including Bertha Benz was a trademarked product called Ligroin. It was purchased from an apothecary.  There are many sites devoted to the memorial of her first motor trip which depict her stopping at the apothecary to pick up fuel.
 * http://www.rider-and-road.com/Dictionary/dictionary_of_motorcycle_terms.htm#Ligroin Ligroin has an MSDS rating.  http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p1696.htm  This is the same substance that was burning people to death all over the world when being used for dental work.  The use of Ether was always very dangerous.  This is specifically why the patent reads "Petroleum Reitwagen" to hide the fact that is was using Ether.


 * Read this: http://books.google.com/books?id=OCw3RYTAZWgC&pg=PA3&dq=ligroin+fuel&hl=en&ei=N77hTdyYNofV0QGgroy6Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=ligroin%20fuel&f=false


 * If you can't I'll reproduce it here: "The technical director of the "Gas Engine Factory Deutz AG" Gottlieb Daimler was not satisfied with the new engine. He envisaged a small high speed four stroke engine that could be built into a vehicle powered by a fuel which could be transported at ambient pressure.  The Deutz factory was not interested in this concept and consequently Daimler left the company and moved to Bad Cannstatt near Stuttgart, where he began his own studies, together with engineer Wilhelm Maybach (also from Otto & Cie).  Right from the beginning Daimler intended to use a light mineral oil fraction known as "Ligroin," as the fuel, which up to that point has predominantly been used as a cleaning agent....(and scalp tonic)


 * (this is also listed as a gasoline fraction) The term gasoline or gasolene did not refer to a specific fuel.. the standard was developed in 1908.


 * The light gasoline which had a density of well below .700 g/ml and a final boiling point of 85 Degress C was sufficiently volatile to produce and ignitable air-fuel mixture in this early and simply carburetors...(the carburetor Maybach developed was only found later to work on heavier fuels as well as Ligroin, thus paving the way for the use of the fuel we call gasoline today)


 * I can get this from the University of Delaware, just up the road. But I'm not going to buy it.


 * This also brings up another point of violation of Wiki principles.. the use of trademarks in descriptions. Petrol is a brand name.  So is Benzine.  Benzin (German) is not.


 * After discussing the steam velocipedes Mick Walker has this to say in his book, Motorcycle: evolution, design, passion.


 * Thus, Gottlieb Daimler and his assistant Wilhelm Maybach, were responsible for the first real motorcycle. It represented the first step in an incredible journey of technical development.


 * Another point... I drive a Volkswagen.. the translation of which is People's Car. Not carriage. Krontach (talk) 04:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * "…as a further development of the surface carburetor in which the intake air was sucked in through the "ligroin" (the )… The, which had a density well below 0.700 g/mL…"
 * "The first powered two wheeler was a cycle equipped with a small steam engine… both Frenchman Pierre Michaux and American Sylvester Roper created steam-driven, two wheeled machines in 1869… however, steam power was much more suited to four wheels… Gottlieb Daimler and his assistant Wilhelm Maybach, were responsible for the first ." (Walker, p. 9-10)
 * The, but Gottlieb Daimler and his associate, Wilhelm Maybach, produced the first two-wheeler to be powered by an internal-combustion engine. (Walker p. 16) Note that Walker just contradicted himself in the space of 6 pages. So what? So what. There is no such thing as a "true motorcycle", except in your own mind.
 * "It had been built as a mobile test rig for the engineers 264 cc, single cylinder, four stroke powerplant. Powered by the new miracle …" (Walker, p. 18)
 * The German marque Hildebrand & Wolfmuller has the distinction of being the builder of the world's first … STEAM ENGINE INFLUENCE The engine's pistons were linked by long connecting rods in similar fashion to those of a steam locomotive."  (Walker p. 20) Yet another reason why steam motorcycles are relevant.
 * "Although there were several prototype constructed during the latter half of the 19th century, it is the German engineer Gottlieb Daimler and is associated Wilhlem Maybach who today are credited with producing the first powered two-wheeler to feature an internal combustion engine."
 * "On December 26, 1868, Louis Guillaume Perreaux patented a design for a steam engine to be installed on the first commercially successful pedal bicycle, built by Pierre and Ernest Michaux in France… All that was needed was to remove the cranks and pedals and the front wheel, substitute an arched backbone to make room for the steam engine, and add pulleys for transmitting power to the rear wheel. This final modification was described in a June 14 1871 addition to Perreaux's patent, and the resulting 87-kg was fabricated later that year… Sylvester Roper's machine, built circa 1969, was another early example.  Gottlieb Daimler built a lightweight version of one of these [Otto] engines, installed it in a wooden chassis, and created the  . But this crude vehicle had four wheels and bore only a superficial resemblance to an " (Falco, p. 24-25)
 * Gottlieb Daimler, the German engineer who earned the nickname 'Father of the Motorcycle', was actually using his wooden 'boneshaker' (a term often used to describe early cycls with their wooden frames and wheels, fig. ii) to test a engine intended for a four wheeled-carriage." (Falco, p 98)
 * "The origins of the ; the first suggestion of a self-propelled two-wheeler appeared in the form of a caricature in 1818 under the imposing portmanteau title of 'Vélocipédraisiavaporianna'"
 * "The appeared 40 years later, in 1867, when it is claimed, Ernest Michaux, pioneer of the pedal-driven bicycle, fitted a light steam engine to one of his velocipedes. The next year, in December, one Perreaux patented a  (David Burgess-Wise, p. 7)
 * "In 1868 the first American appeared, built by Sylvester Roper… A key figure in the development of the  was Lucius Copeland…"  (David Burgess-Wise, p. 7)
 * "Gottlieb Daimler and his associated Wilhelm Maybach, succeeded in producing the fist high-speed four-stroke internal combustion engine, which ran at a giddy 700-900 rpm… In 1885 Daimler constructed, purely as a test bench, a crude wooden-framed two-wheeler, with two outrigger steady wheels.. As a bicycle it was 20 years out of date, and once it had served its purpose Daimler discarded it for the horseless carriage (the company he founded never built another )." (David Burgess-Wise, p. 8)
 * "It is common for text-books and authorities to quote the designs of the Englishman, Edward butler, in 1884, or of the German Gottlieb Daimler in 1885, as the prototypes of the motorcycle, their choice of one or the other depending to some extent upon their prejudices and nationality. But by more severe standards neither of these pioneers should be candidates for the honor." p.9
 * "…we can fix upon 1869 as the date of the appearance of a known " p 10
 * "" (p. 1)
 * "A close contemporary of Perreaux was Sylvester Howard Roper of Roxbury, Massachusetts. The American may, indeed have preceded the Frenchman in getting a working, although dates are maddeningly vague." (Ayton, p. 2-3)
 * "The fuel Daimler chose to work with was then commonly called, and chiefly served as a cleaning fluid for clothes. More broadly known as , it is one of several distillates of petroleum, or 'rock oil'. … the fact that the Otto cycle had been anticipated by Beau de Rochas sixteen years earlier enabled Daimler to employ the principle without license complications. " (Ayton p. 7)
 * "Daimler and Maybach… decided to build t into a … It may seem surprising that they made no attempt to adapt it to a ready-made bicycle, bu tin 1884 the bicyle was still in the 'penny-farthing' stage. .. It was crudely and hurriedly built, but Gottlieb Daimler's Einspur was the true father of all ." (Ayton p. 8-9)
 * "It is impossible to bestow on any one individual the credit for having 'invented' the motorcycle." p. 12
 * "STEAM MOTORCYCLES: One of the first suggestions of for a motorised cycle was made in a cartoon of 1818 entitled 'Vélocipédraisiavaporianna' … It is unlikely that this machine was built, but the proposal is interesting because it antedates by some fifty years the which actually ran… it was not until 1969 that the  appeared. This was basically a Michaux velocipede… It was for its time, quite a practical vehicle, and although it did not lead directly to any commercial developments, it is important historically as the  which have appeared since it was made." p.1
 * "THE FIRST PETROL-ENGINED MOTORCYCLES …Daimler devoted himself at his own works in Canstatt to the evolution of a small air-cooled four-stroke horizontal engine (Patent No. 9112 of 1884) which was considerably lighter than previous designs and could operate at speeds up to 800 rpm, . For the, Daimler invented a surface-vaporiser…" (Caunter p. 3)
 * "The Michaux-Perreaux Velocipede; This combination of a small steam engine and a wooden framed 'bone shaker' bicycle was the world's …. The First Motorcycle; …Daimler mounted his engine into a wood-framed machine in 1885. It actually had four wheels, but historians overlook the two stabilizers and declare this to be the ." p 8
 * "Roper had invented the motorcycle, and his creation was a whole bunch closer to the definition of today than Daimler's was. The Smithsonian's experts believe that Roper didn't do what first occurs: that is, he didn't take an existing velocipede and attach an engine. Rather Roper used the basic idea of the velocipede and built his own frame, the chassis as we's say now"
 * Please take a look at Verifiability again. It says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Let me repeat that phrase: verifiability, not truth. This is a core policy of Wikipedia. Continuing to beat this dead horse is becoming disruptive. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

NOT overwhelmingly popular
The Otto engine has limited usefulness. It is popular in many automobiles, but 50% of new car sales in Europe are Diesels. The heavy duty industry, including virtually every over the road tractor has a Diesel. Virtually all ships now use Diesel. Most small engines are Day cycle, overwhelmingly, and so are many scooters and motorcycles outside the US/Europe/Japan.

This claim, supported or not is simply too general to be considered truthful. I'm not going to criticize the sources for the moment... but 12 and 13 are the SAME work and the same I just quoted earlier that says that the Reitwagen is the first real motorcycle.

When you cite varying sources to support differing views that are not supported by all of those sources the result is dishonest. The largest selling motorcycles from 1928 (DKW) to 1965 (NSU) were Day cycle. These two were selling in the millions long before any others.

In 1951 the Harley-Davidson Hummer was a top seller, it was two cycle also (Day cycle). I have fragmented production figures. Since HD cheats in this I never include them or consider them.

I don't believe there has ever been a snow mobile that was Otto engined. There were Day cycle automobiles up until the 60s or so (not my field). Krontach (talk) 04:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you might be misreading that to say that it's saying Daimler's vehicle was the forerunner of the most popular cars sold in Europe in 2011. It's saying that internal combustion gasoline engines are the dominant type of land vehicle, air vehicle, and water vehicle of the entire 126 year span since 1885. See:
 * "Daimler and Maybach's invention was not the first motorcycle. It was actually much more than that &mdash; it was the predecessor of ."  --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "It should be explained that Gottlieb Daimler was a true visionary, who dreamed of his engines serving the whole of mankind. In fact " ( p. 18)
 * "" p 11.
 * --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

No reason
To discuss Steam Velocipedes on a page about the Reitwagen. If the page were titled, "The first Motorcycle" that would be appropriate. It is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krontach (talk • contribs) 04:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * How can you explain why some experts don't think it's the first motorcycle if you don't mention the alternatives? And how can you explain anything without comparing it to other things? It would be like going to the page Ant and deleting all reference to anything that isn't an ant. Ant mentions wasps and bees in the very first sentence. Harold Innis has extensive discussion of several people who are not Harold Innis: comparison, contrast, relationships, influence. Macintosh Classic mentions several other computers that aren't the subject of the article. It's really a bizarre suggestion to not mention the Michaux-Perreaux and the Roper. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Holbrook's Comments
Her comments represent a lack of understanding of what Daimler and Maybach were doing. Her myopic opinion, which clearly sounds as if it were satirical, has no business being in a NEUTRAL article. I recommend it be removed. Krontach (talk) 02:26, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Your opinion might be that it's "myopic" but there are numerous published opinions that disagree. One of the reasons there is a Wikipedia article about Melissa Holbrook Pierson is that she is widely respected, particularly for the quality and accuracy her description. It's one of the reasons she was chosen to contribute an essay to The Art of the Motorcycle. And Wooden horse, Riding the rail and similar devices look the part, especially since we know the Reitwagen's seat was too high to touch the ground, and, to make it all the worse, it had an open flame that caught the seat above on fire.The point that Daimler invented the motorcycle "in spite of himself", because he was actually pursuing a different goal than a powered two-wheeler, is also supported by numerous sources, as listed above.One again, please stop this disruptive use of talk pages. If you are prepared to cite good sources, fine, but if all you've got is I just don't like it, you're wasting other editors' time. You might want to take a look at WikiProject Motorcycling/Cleanup listing to find articles that have serious problems that would be a better use of everyone's time. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:15, 30 May 2011 (UTC)