Talk:Dairy farming in Canada/Archive 1

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Future Information to add
Some topics I wish to address for the article's discussion on Canadian dairy farming includes an examination of the environmental impact of Canadian dairy farming and an overview of organic dairy farming in Canada. In particular, for examining environmental impact I would like to examine what the negative impact of Canadian dairy farming has been on the environment, the difference of environmental impact due to the type of grain eaten by the dairy cows, and environmental regulations in place to govern Canadian dairy farms. In addressing organic dairy farming in Canada, I would like to examine how the environmental impact of organic dairy farming compares to non-organic dairy farming as well as I would like to examine the spread of bacteria in Organic milk compared to non-organic milk.

I hope to include some of the following sources in my discussion:

Canadian Food Inspection Agency (2013). Biosecurity for Canadian dairy farms: National standard. Retrieved from http://books1.scholarsportal.info.proxy .library.carleton.ca/viewdoc.html?id=/ebooks/ebooks0/gibson_cppc/2013-06-28/1/10690986#tabview=tab1

Guyader, J., Little, S., Kröbel, R., Benchaar, C., & Beauchemin, K. A. (2017). Comparison of greenhouse gas emissions from corn- and barley-based dairy production systems in Eastern Canada. Agricultural Systems, 152, 38-46. DOI: 10.1016/j.agsy.2016.12.002

Martin, R. C., Lynch, D. H., Frick, B., & van Straaten, P. (2007). Phosphorus status on Canadian organic farms. Journal of the Science of Food and Agriculture, 87(15), 2737-2740. DOI:10.1002/jsfa.3077

Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. (2008). Environmental performance of agriculture in OECD countries since 1990. Retrieved from http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org.proxy.library.carleton.ca/docserver/download/5108011e.pdf?expires=1518490325&id=id&accname=ocid57005379&checksum=E0C76A1D476CF78B9038BCE59B14DAE9

Pieper, L., Sorge, U., Godkin, A., DeVries, T., Lissemore, K., & Kelton, D. (2014). Management practices and their potential influence on Johne’s disease transmission on Canadian organic dairy Farms—A conceptual analysis. Sustainability, 6(11), 8237-8261. DOI: 10.3390/su6118237

Stonehouse, D. P., Clark, E. A., & Ogini, Y. A. (2001). Organic and conventional dairy farm comparisons in Ontario, Canada. Biological Agriculture & Horticulture, 19(2), 115-125. DOI: 10.1080/01448765.2001.9754916

Thivierge, M., Jégo, G., Bélanger, G., Chantigny, M. H., Rotz, C. A., Charbonneau, É.,. . . Qian, B. (2017). Projected impact of future climate conditions on the agronomic and environmental performance of Canadian dairy farms. Agricultural Systems, 157, 241-257. DOI: 10.1016/j.agsy.2017.07.003

Vergé, X. P. C., Maxime, D., Dyer, J. A., Desjardins, R. L., Arcand, Y., & Vanderzaag, A. (2013). Carbon footprint of Canadian dairy products: Calculations and issues. Journal of Dairy Science, 96(9), 6091 - 6104. DOI: 10.3168/jds.2013-6563 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Contributingknowledge (talk • contribs) 03:14, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

NPOV
Notice nearly all sources are negative opinion based articles, resulting in a biased article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.224.126.153 (talk) 07:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Which parts specifically do you think are inaccurate? Do you have neutral sources to back it up?  Oreo Priest  talk 10:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the banner, since (a) it was added 3 years ago with little specific actionable concerns, and (b) the article has been largely reworked since then. I have no problem with it being re-added, but specific concerns are really needed. Guettarda (talk) 12:35, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

CWF/Martha Hall Findlay
Most of the sources are written by this woman and her group. I've emailed them to verify some of the things they have written about the Canadian dairy industry but they do not respond and I can not verify the information myself as true or false. There are sentences in this article that use Mrs. Findlay as a source multiple times and then her name is replaced by "critics" to give the idea that a variety of sources hold this idea when really it is just one person. Her opinion is necessary for this article, but her more questionable claims and fallacies should be removed. Of 19 (talk) 16:11, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Ethics
I removed a section on ethics that was added by user. I removed it only because it seems out of scope for this article: the section was about dairy farming ethics in general and was not specific to dairy farming in Canada. I think it would fit very well in a broader article, but I'm not sure which one. Or, if we can find some sources commenting on ethics of dairy farming in Canada, we could re-work the section. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:45, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

The complaints I listed were specifically in regards to Canadian dairy farming. To verify these abuses, I cited the website of the "Canadians for Ethical Treatment of Farmed Animals,"  which is completely about Canadian dairy. RockingGeo (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. I'm kind of embarrassed I didn't think of that simple modification to address the concern. I've made a slight copyedit, and I think that the wikilink to physical restraint should be refined (that article is about human restraint) but I can't find a better one to link to at the moment. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:31, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Weasel-puff tone in lead
While there has been some pushback regarding the supply management system, research indicates that the Canadian population generally have varied views with the current system.

Although the system is very necessary for farmers with the rising prices of commodities and fuel so they can continue to provide top quality milk to consumers.

I had better not touch this article myself my current state, or I'd add a 3000-word rebuttal to neo-con ideology. (See next item below.) &mdash; MaxEnt 22:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Although the first sentence you quote isn't very good, I don't see a problem with the tone. The second is that don't seem have a NPOV. --SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 09:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Artifice POV
The consequence of such a system is artificially higher dairy prices in Canada which has shown to affect the consumption of dairy products in Canada.

This particular use of the word artificial is itself an artifice, but it's a broadly accepted artifice which too easily passes under the radar of common sense.

Here's the underlying problem. The overly simplified supply-and-demand curves taught and re-taught in first and second year economics abstract out reputational factors.

Just this morning: Some Uber drivers use bogus identities and shared accounts

At least 14,000 trips were made by unauthorized drivers, according to city regulator Transport for London. The way it worked is this: A number of drivers would share one account, and whenever one of them went out to drive, they'd upload their own photo to fool passengers. The unauthorized drivers were able to pose as vetted, licensed and insured, when often they weren't.

Uber is not thrilled about this publicity, because reputational factors are not negligible factors (not once you get past finals in second year).

The Canadian milk system has a substantially different approach to herd management, animal handling, use of antibiotics and growth hormones, and disease control than than the American system. This doesn't show up inside the milk jug on the shelf in the store, which is what naive supply and demand curves tend to presume.

Instead, this is a reputational component of the product as marketed.

There is definitely a demand reduction due to the raw economic margin of higher shelf price. But there is also a potential demand reduction due an entire industry having egg on its face, such as the ride sharing industry in the above example. For myself, when ride sharing is approved in my political box (it's coming soon) I'd probably walk before hailing Uber in particular (some of the other providers I'm willing to try, but no-one in this space is precisely angelic).

These two offsets have the potential to cancel out. Lower shelf price + poor industry reputation vs. higher shelf price with better reputational equity might well generate equal consumer demand.

What tends to happen in practice is that consumers vote with their wallet 90% of the time (the cost margin dominates), but then they pay huge reputational premiums for other goods circled as the cause of the moment (e.g. green energy, green plant-based organic produce, etc.) When you conspicuously purchase the "green" good of the day, what basket of goods have you really purchased? You've purchased a basket of goods including a personal reputational halo generated among friends and neighbors. Baskets of goods are not always the trivial, fungible commodities taught in sophomore economics class.

How is a low shelf price due to the producer dumping unprocessed waste into a public waterway (classic negative externality) any less "artificial" than a political solution that enacts a broad, level playing field to prevent this from happening? There's basically no such thing as a price that doesn't fold in some artifice from one domain or another. If it's not regulatory capture, it's rampant, unchecked exploitation of negative externalities. Florin and Guilder. Two sides of the same coin.

Late edit: Note that every "buy local" program ever promulgated is a reputational surcharge on the largely invisible halo accrued to local geography (sufficiently hard to detect directly from the produce on the shelf that counterfeiting origin is rampant throughout the global food supply chain). &mdash; MaxEnt 22:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Peer Review
Data could be added to the environmental impacts. Numbers showing exactly how much damage, or pollution (CO2 for example) is released by the industry. This may open readers eyes and help with the general public in cutting back on dairy consumption

Overall the article covers three important sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CuHillz (talk • contribs) 06:15, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I edited the animal welfare section regarding ProAction, as information was out of date. I did not update references, as previous references are valid for the updated information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.237.20.203 (talk) 01:55, 5 February 2022 (UTC)