Talk:Dairy product/Archive 1

[Untitled]
I like this arrangement better myself. I do agree that particular grades of milk and cream and particular kinds of cheese can be listed on their respective pages. But... Condensed and sweetened evaporated milk are not the same. Whey is not a kind of cheese but a cheese making by-product. Cottage cheese is a curds and whey mixture and I don't know what cream cheese is exactly but it is always sold in the dairy dept. not the cheese counter. --rmhermen

Yes, there will be inevitably some vagueness. "Condensed" and "Evaporated" milk products are the same, but you are correct that one can find them both sweetened and unsweetened. I'll have to think about how to clarify that. "Curds" and "Whey" are not, so far as I know, "products" in the sense that you can buy them or use them as they are--though you can, as you point out, buy them together as "cottage cheese" or "clotted cream". Cream cheese is just a cheese like any other; it belongs there, as does cottage cheese as well. The cheese article should do a good job of expplaining the curdling process and by-products. --LDC
 * Sweetened Condensed Milk is a "mixture of whole milk and sugar, 40 to 45 percent of which is sugar. This mixture is heated until about 60 percent of the water evaporates. The resulting condensed mixture is extremely sticky and sweet. Unsweetened condensed milk is referred to as EVAPORATED MILK."

based on THE FOOD LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon Tyler Herbst. http://www.allrecipes.com/encyc/terms/s/8791.asp but "Condensed Milk (bulk) is obtained by the partial removal of water from whole or skim milk, which has been pasteurized and to which nothing has been added." according to the American Dairy Products Institute. (This may be a commercial not retail product.) --rmhermen

yes you can buy curds and whey separately and use them that way. Curds (or squeeky cheese - it makes odd queeky noioses as you eat it.) are almost always sold at cheese factories. Cottage cheese is halfway to cheese but not there yet. And again cottage cheese is sold in the dairy dept. not the cheese counter (at least here.) Clooted cream is apparently just a very high fat form of cream -not a pre-cheese. I think they should be listed as they are since they are substantially different [[Media:Insert non-formatted text here]]Link title

There are three ways to curdle your milk to make cheese - with acid, with rennet (an enzyme from cow stomaches) or with bacteria -just like yogurt. Apparently connoiseurs prefer bacteria-produced cheese. Me,

(It's four hyphens for a break, by the way) We'll have to find some expert opinion here, then, because that's not my understanding. All cheese, as I understand it, is curdled with acid (rennet is an acid), separated from the whey, then possibly further cultured with bacteria or mold ("ripened"). Yogurt, Kefir, and Sour cream are never curdled or separated from the whey; the culture is added to raw milk and the whole consumed. Ripened cheeses like Brie, Bleu, etc. are cultured only after the curds are separated after having been curdled with acid. Cottage cheese is different from most cheeses only in that the whey is not removed. I may well be wrong, here, but I'd like to hear from an actual cheesemaker, or at least a good reference work. --LDC
 * no, ripened cheeses are any cheeses with bacteria that are aged (which is almost all cheeses). Blue cheese and Brie have mold added after they processed with bacteria and rennet - blue cheese before it is pressed and Brie after. Rennet is an animal or more often now vegetable enzyme, chymosin, not an acid, that forms the curd. Rennet is not added to yogurt, sour cream or cream cheese. Sour Cream and yogurt use bacteria and cream cheese, which is separated from its whey, uses buttermilk, a mild acid. Cottage cheese is separate from most of its whey, it's just never pressed.

For what rennet is and how cheese is made: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/cheese.html or http://gourmetsleuth.com/cheeserecipes.htm#queso%20fresco            --rmhermen

Cottage cheese is sold with the dairy products because its shelf life is extremely short - I don't know about America, but in Australia the 'soft' cheeses are also stored in the refrigerated section next to the dairy products, because they need refrigeration to keep them good! KJ
 * In America, except for really hard cheeses like grated Parmesan, they are all usually kept in refrigeration. --rmhermen

Although I get the impression, surfing the web, that a number of "experts" condemn this usage, many people in the United States seem to think of eggs as dairy products. I myself considered eggs to be dairy products until just now, when several web sites contradicted me, and I get the impression that most of the people I know still view eggs as dairy. Has anyone else in America (or elsewhere) had a similar experience? If so, does anyone have an explanation for why eggs and milk products have come, for some of us, to be lumped into the same category? Were they clumped together historically? Are Americans insane? Am I insane? --Ryguasu


 * Eggs are not milk products, nor are they processed in a dairy. BUT eggs are traditionally packaged at a dairy, sold in a dairy store, found near milk in the refrigerators in the dairy section of the grocery and traditionally delivered along with milk by the milkman from the local dairy. So, since eggs come from dairies, people considered them dairy products which, in that sense, they are. Bluelion


 * Eggs have never been considered as dairy, have never been packaged in dairy, have never been delivered from dairy. Yes, only the Americans are insane ;) --Arjuna 09:49, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Removed swedish "Fil Mjölk" as it is same as buttermilk. --Arjuna 09:43, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Eggs not Dairy
It's strange that you would think of eggs as a dairy product. Perhaps you associate the two with farms. Another possiblity is you are thinking of a food pryamid where they lump dairy and egg products into the same "dairy" category. I think this decision to lump the two together in the pryamid was an effort to signify the protein and fat sources inherent to both, but was never meant to draw any direct relationship.


 * No, "dairy" means food produced by animals that is not meat. Eggs are indeed dairy. &mdash;Chowbok 18:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as a 55-yr native of USA, I think there (could be) a traditional tendency here to include eggs in a loosely-defined "dairy" category. Partly because our image of a country farm with a few milk cows would also include some chickens and egg gathering. Partly because a milk delivery person would also be expected to offer eggs. Partly because they are traditionally refrigerated and sold together; they are both basic traditional foodstuffs, and any store that sold one would sell the other. But very much because of our category "Eggs and Dairy", which we are all very familiar with from the government and the way stores are organized, and cookbooks etc, which (could) naturally be abbreviated in our minds at it's simplest to "Dairy". I don't think it is a definition we would/could defend, just a way of thinking we (could) easily fall into. How are these matters different in other parts of the world? 69.87.194.147 15:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This must be a regional usage. In California as far as I know we don't actually perceive eggs to be a dairy product, although they are shelved together for convenience.  They're a poultry product that just happens to need refrigeration, so eggs go in the dairy section.  In which part of the country do they actually call eggs a dairy product?  --Coolcaesar 02:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I may be tying myself in knots here... I actually grew up mostly in Southern California, although I've lived for decades on the East Coast recently. I did not mean to imply that I actually do call eggs dairy, or would, or know anyone who would -- just that it all seems quite vague to me, not something I am that clear about, and I could easily imagine that someone would.  So I would not personally remove mention of such a notion from the main article as "obvious wrongheaded-impossible"... 69.87.203.132 21:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Eggs and milk should be classified together because they are both foods that are produced by animals. This distinguishes them from food that is animals (meat) and, of course, fruits and vegetables. &mdash; Chowbok  ☠  03:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Eggs are not dairy products. Period. Therefore there is no point in even mentioning this here. Halogenated (talk) 02:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

By your definition Chowbock, if eggs are dairy then so is honey, eggs are not dairy. Dairy are the the food products made from the secrections of a mammals mammary glands (ie milk). - Purns 16.07.08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.23.130.14 (talk) 22:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a current trend by food experts, to call what normal people would call "dairy products" [  that is,  foods made from milk produced in a dairy ],  to be renamed as just "dairy".   So instead of saying, "You can eat 150 grams of dairy products a day",  the food experts now say "You can eat 150 grams of dairy".  This sounds silly to people who think the word "dairy" means a milking shed, or a butter factory, or, in New Zealand, a shop.   But the word-redefinitions push on regardless.Eregli bob (talk) 04:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I am editing this article as a class assignment and was thinking of removing the "eggs are not dairy" part. After reading over these thoughts and doing some research, I have decided to not include that part in this article; it would be better suited on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_as_food page. (talk) 69.87.203.132 Paigebrazil (talk) 00:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Paigebrazil

stock food?
A couple of the products here are described as "stock food," which is a term that I am not familiar with. (I'm in the U.S., if that makes a difference.) I can think of a few different possibilities, but what does it mean? FreplySpang 01:07, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Khoa
There's a reference to Khoa. This link gets redirected to Khowa, a tribe of people. If somebody knows what 'Khoa' is, this should be fixed. -- anniepoo - 11 October 2005 Khoa: Khoa is a Indian Milk product used in Sweets. Prepration: Milk is cooked on slow heat until it becomes a thick mix by stiring it constantly. The thick mix is called khoa and is used in all the milk based sweets like Burfi etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.154.146.226 (talk) 05:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Margerine?
What about Margerine? Dairy product? -- Nojer2 10:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * From the margerine article: "Modern margarine can be made from any of a wide variety of animal or vegetable fats, and is often mixed with skim milk..." and other ingredients. So, while margerine may contain some milk, it isn't primarily a dairy product, as such. Jonathunder 21:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Please, someone edit the bit near the end of the page where it says "some retards." Can we be adults, please, people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.190.71.125 (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Citations, NPOV, etc
This article requires citations and a general cleanup to remove opinion based material such as "Eggs as Dairy" etc. I will be removing this section entirely, along with other info unless someone cares to clean it up substantially. This article does not meet many of Wikipedia's criteria  Halogenated (talk) 23:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The ISO standards about toxic metals and pesticides residuals....???
A part of the discussion is at Talk:Milk allergy --222.64.219.44 (talk) 01:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like that the ISO division of ICS 67: Food technology needs to talk to Food and Agriculture Organization and its Codex Alimentarius--222.67.209.134 (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Another red link has been added .....
List of the production systems of egg and egg products

based on the following

http://www.codexalimentarius.net/download/standards/73/CXP_015e.pdf

as different production systems may generate quality variations of their products--222.67.209.144 (talk) 02:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

BTW, what is the definition of delicacy eggs...??? This codex standard only gives an example but not definition. I assume that the eggs which fall into this category won't be the only type of the 1000 year eggs, right?

To be honest, there are lots of craps in this standard--222.67.209.144 (talk) 02:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Could anyone please provide info on the literature review of this codex standard, ever since 1976

Little can be found from google scholar http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=%22CAC%2FRCP+15%22+Code+of+Hygienic+Practice+for+Eggs+and+Egg+products&btnG=Search —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.67.209.144 (talk) 02:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Literature review info of ISO 3594:1976 is needed.....
Little can be found by google search....

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=%22ISO+3594%22+milk+fat&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Similar to ISO 6731:1989 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=ISO+6731&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1 --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 1211:1999 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+1211&btnG=Search

ISO 5537:2004 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+5537&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 8069:2005 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+8069&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 3976:2006 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+3976&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 8070:2007 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+8070&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 1736:2008 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+1736&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 3356:2009 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+3356&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

ISO 23065:2009 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+23065&btnG=Search --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Does ISO have a code of practice on publishing their standards--222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Or

is this a google scholar problem??? --222.67.209.144 (talk) 03:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

A further standardization of the product....
is needed http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+Listeria+cheese&btnG=Search --222.64.223.101 (talk) 01:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, this has been done @__@ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.64.223.101 (talk) 02:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

BUT

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=ISO+7251&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1 --222.64.18.61 (talk) 00:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ISO 7251

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+11866&btnG=Search --222.64.18.61 (talk) 00:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ISO 11866

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+16649&btnG=Search --222.64.18.61 (talk) 00:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ISO 16649

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+ISO+16654&btnG=Search --222.64.18.61 (talk) 00:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ISO 16654

The reason for the appeal is based on the following http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+Escherichia+coli+cheese&btnG=Search --222.64.18.61 (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.64.223.101 (talk)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=Escherichia+coli+egg&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1 --222.64.223.101 (talk) 02:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Call for critical assessment of ....
ISO 4831, based on http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=coliform+egg&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1 --222.64.223.101 (talk) 03:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

and Coliform bacteria —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.64.223.101 (talk) 03:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

A call for establishment of ISO standards....
which is able to targeting the Airborne Bacteria such as Aspergillus fumigatus etc. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allintitle:+airborne+bacteria+poultry&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&start=0&sa=N --222.64.223.101 (talk) 03:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+Aspergillus+fumigatus+poultry&btnG=Search --222.64.223.101 (talk) 03:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+Aspergillus+fumigatus+egg&btnG=Search --222.64.223.101 (talk) 03:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+Aspergillus+fumigatus+cheese&btnG=Search --222.64.223.101 (talk) 03:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=allintitle%3A+Aspergillus+fumigatus+disease&btnG=Search --222.64.223.101 (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"Photo of Dairy Farm" is seriously in error
If a photo of a grass-fed dairy farm is included on this page, I feel it vital to include a photo of a Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation dairy as well. CAFOs are the way 90% of the dairy in the United States is produced, not the idyllic grass farm pictured. There is a world of difference in the two types of farm, the health of the animal it creates and the milk those animals produce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinemaniax7 (talk • contribs) 13:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have a freely-licensed photo of one, go ahead and add it. I don't think anyone would object.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  16:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Health risks of consuming dairy products
This section is lacking details of the health problems from the high fat and high saturated fat contents of most dairy products. 92.15.21.188 (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Milkproducts2.svg
The image linked has a serious translation error; the links to soft/semi-soft/semi-hard/hard come from 'whey' in the translated version, but they go through 'pasteurized milk' in the original german version (which is the correct path) 82.156.30.17 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC).

I agree there is a problem showing 'Sweet whey' as the parent for soft & hard cheeses e.g. Brie. Great chart though in many ways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.167.60 (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Eggs ?
When I was working as a 'steward' (think security guard) at a festival, some teens asked me if eggs counted as 'dairy products' for dietary restrictions - I directed them to ask at the on-site 'field hospital' (playing safe). Eggs would often be sold in dairy outlets (ie delivered by milkmen), as a perishable 'staple diet' item going from farm to customer, with even less processing than milk products (zero really). I could see milk-protein and albumen triggering the same intolerances, but I am not at all qualified to comment. (Obviously they come from different animals and orifices !) Most cooking recipies that use one will use the other, so maybe excluding one pretty well excludes the other ? Or if the issues are completely different, eggs could be a milk-substitute and/or vice-versa ? The definition here excludes eggs clearly - is there any value in stating 'eggs' or 'not eggs' explicitly ? Can anyone point to 'reliable sources' for the commonality (or non-overlap) of milk and egg intolerances ? Japanese ? --195.137.93.171 (talk) 18:54, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140429162158/http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/publication/understandfoodlabellingterms.pdf to http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/publication/understandfoodlabellingterms.pdf

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Proposed Section
There should be a "Production" section to help complete the article.

Thanks! Your Pal, MooperVeltresleex 14:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MooperVeltresleex (talk • contribs)

MooperVeltresleex (talk I am editing this article and I am thinking about adding this section! Good idea. Paigebrazil (talk) 02:24, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Paigebrazil

Editing Article for Class Assignment
Howdy! I am a student at Texas A&M University and I am currently enrolled in an undergraduate technical editing course. One of our major projects is editing a Wikipedia article. I have never used this interface before, but I am learning and excited for this challenge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paigebrazil (talk • contribs) 15:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

This is an interesting article. I have previously written a 20-page paper on why humans should not consume milk past infancy, hence why I chose this article to potentially work with. This is a topic that interests me tremendously. Although this article focuses on dairy product rather than reactions the body can have in response to milk, there are still several edits that can be made. I think the introduction/definition of dairy product is pretty spot on. The "Types of dairy products" list seems well-organized at first, but a closer read will prove otherwise. The first bullet point is describing milk, but there are terms (such as the bacteria) that need a little more explanation. Most of the products are hyperlinked and have some information about them, but not all. I think all of the products should be hyperlinked (if there is a subsequent article) and have a few sentences describing what the product is. Caesin is a very important component in milk, yet it is not described well. The "Health" section is very small; the health aspect of dairy products should be lengthy and detailed so audiences know exactly what dairy does in your body (i.e. benefits, side effects, etc.). The "Consumption patterns world wide" section seems random and not important to the context of the rest of the article. I think the "Avoidance" section is a good section to have, but it seems thrown together and the information can be presented in a more effective manner.

I think it is important to change the list into paragraphs (one for milk, butter, cheese, etc.) in order to abide by Wikipedia's encyclopedia style. I have this major edit in my sandbox if anyone would like to take a look and provide any feedback. Paigebrazil (talk) 17:57, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Paigebrazil


 * Hi Paigebrazil. This is an excellent idea. Unfortunately, the list was very badly structured and incomplete. I restructured it a little and added some more products. But there are still more to add. The diagram in the article displays some structure which can be used as a starting point for organising the text into proper sections and subsections. This diagram covers basically the products and techniques used by German dairy industry which is quite rich but still does not refect the WP:WORLDVIEW. --Off-shell (talk) 07:48, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Off-shell I like the edits you made. This has been a great help. Do you think the list would be better in paragraph form or as is? Thanks!Paigebrazil (talk) 15:15, 16 March 2019 (UTC)Paigebrazil

The duration of my assignment has come to an end! I feel the list is better organized and inclusive. I also fixed several grammatical mistakes for clarity and precision of information. Some of the citations did not cover all the information stated, so I added some for cross reference. I still think the "Health" and "Avoidance" sections could be a little more indepth; perhaps a project for a different editor! Thanks for all your help. Paigebrazil (talk) 02:24, 18 March 2019 (UTC)Paigebrazil

Suggestions:
Harizotoh9 (talk) 08:32, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1. Nuke the big list. We already have a list of dairy products.
 * 2. Replace it with a text of describing the various dairy products.
 * 3. Add a History section. This is completely missing from the article.

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 * Sealed Milk.jpg

"Avoidance on Principle" Section
I think that this section misrepresents veganism, since sometimes the choice to become vegan is health-related. It would be good if this were corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kokopelli7309 (talk • contribs) 00:14, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

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