Talk:Dalry and North Johnstone Line

Castle Semple railway station
Is there anywhere apart from RAILSCOT that even acknowledges this station's existence (or rather, it's planned existence)? Dreamer84 20:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * On the back back out of Kilbarchan along the general route of the railway, you reach a T-junction - left to Howwood and right in a north westery direction. As you cross over the railway line on the Kilbarchan side of the bridge there is the widening of the track and mound were a station may have been planned - very similar to Lyoncross railway station on the Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway. It is quite a few years since I last eye-balled it, so I have no idea how overgrown it now is. If I get the chance I will have a look at the weekend - if a photo is possible I will post it. It is however not adjacent to Castle Semple Loch -- Stewart 22:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Think I've found what you're talking about on Virtual Earth, I can see the widening of the track, and it's close enough to the castle that being called 'Castle Semple railway station' wouldn't be a complete impossibility. There must be a book or something that mentions it, though the "Ayrshire & Renfrewshire's Lost Railways" book makes no mention of it on the page about the Kilbarchan loop. A photo would be nice if possible, will need something to put on the page! - Dreamer84 23:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Article name change
Just to explain my reasons for changing this article's name from "Kilbarchan Loop Line" to "Dalry and North Johnstone Line":


 * 1) Old OS maps from both the G&SWR and LMS eras give the line's name as "Dalry and North Johnstone Line". They are viewable here.
 * 2) Wham's "Lost Railway Lines of Ayrshire", page 74 gives the line's name as "Dalry and North Johnstone Line".
 * 3) Smith's "Ayrshire's Last Days of Steam" abbreviates this name to "North Johnstone Line"

None of the books I have to hand refer to the line as "Kilbarchan Loop Line". I had always gone along with that name because of Railscot's use of it, but if anything "Lochwinnoch Loop Line" seems to be more 'official' than Kilbarchan, as that's what Sustrans refers to the cycle track as.

I should have, of course, gone for a concensus before such a rename, for which I apologise. --- Dreamer  84  17:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I am biased as I used to live in Kilbarchan, but do not have any strong views. Is there an means of looking into the G&SWR archives to identify what they called it? --Stewart (talk)  17:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No idea about that sadly. Just to add to the confusion somebody here claims that the official name of the line was "Cart Junction to Brownhill Junction"(!?), but they do mention this "Dalry and North Johnstone" name as well. The RCAHMS Canmore site mentions the name as well. To be honest I'd never heard of the name either until a couple of days ago when I was browsing the old maps, but since then I seem to have uncovered it in quite a few places... --- Dreamer  84  17:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The Cart Junction to Brownhill Junction title probably comes from -
 * see page 16. --Stewart (talk)  17:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * see page 16. --Stewart (talk)  17:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A earlier reference appears in John Thomas, vol 6, (1971). On page 134 he states: "A solution was found in the provision of a loop line leaving the Greenock line at Cart Junction and running along the north shore of Kilbirnie Loch to join the main line at Brownhill Junction, Dalry. The loop was opened on 1 June 1905."Pyrotec (talk) 17:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Original Johnstone North line
I've been trying to find out exactly when the line with the original Johnstone North/North Johnstone (the name of the station seems to be something of a lottery) terminal station closed, to add the date to the article.

Obviously the station itself closed in 1905, but the line remained intact almost as long as the loop line, I believe. Hurst's list of closed lines refers to a "Cart Jn - Johnstone Cartside" closure in 1965, is Cartside what the original line was later referred to? There were a few lines coming out of Cart Junction so I'm not sure. Anyone know? --- Dreamer  84  20:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * North Johnstone station moved when the loop line opened. The first North Johnstone was, in effect, the terminal basin of the Glasgow, Paisley and Johnstone canal before it was made into a railway. I added that info to the Paisley Canal Line article some time ago.Pyrotec (talk) 21:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * John Thomas, Vol 6 (1971) provides a pull-out map at the end. The original line was shown closed then, so its closure predates 1971. It comes off the line to Kilmacolm parallel to the loop line; whereas the replacement station on the loop line was still shown as open. There is another closed G&SWR line going in the opposite direction to Linwood, but that comes off the loop line near the new N. Johnstone station. Now the evidence of the Linwood line was still there some 15 years ago "running" to what was the incinerator. Thomas, shows in sequence from east to west: the loop line, the Linwood branch and then the original N. Johnstone line. It is obviously not to scale, but could the old station have been near what the current OS map shows as White House or White House Farm. User:Okonski has access to a 1921 OS map, because there is part of it pasted into Paisley and I've seen bits elsewhere. Could we get him to show Johnstone, if it extends that far? Pyrotec (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The 1925 OS map (viewable here under the "Sheet 72 - Glasgow") shows the original line coming to a stop very near to the 'new' North station after it passes under the loop line. Unless the line was cut back when the loop was built, it looks like the original North station site was mere yards away from the newer one. --- Dreamer  84  22:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Even better, the 1895 map here shows the North branch before the loop was built. It looks like the two stations were practically on the same spot. --- Dreamer  84  22:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent, I didn't know about these map sites! I had tracked down a copy of the 1895 OS map in the Alan Godfrey collection and was going to get a copy (it costs about the same as a pint of beer). Interestingly the 1925 map linked above shows those mineral or industrial lines. They also appear on a "County of the City of Glasgow" map, which is an OS map of unspecified date, which is in the rear of the (1958) "Third Statistical Account of Scotland: The City of Glasgow"; and the earthworks appear in the 1:25000 Glasgow (West) O/S Sheet NS 46/56 which was based on the 1:10000 and 1:10560 maps surveyed 1970-79. These mineral/industrial lines now add to the confusion.Pyrotec (talk) 17:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I am coming to this discussion much later, obviously, and I have the advantage that in the meantime the NLS has made available a lot of large scale mapping on line; and Ross has published his comprehensive book on the G&SWR. (His indexing system makes life hard work though.)

The first Johnstone North station opened on 1 August 1896 and was a terminus. I don't think it was at the basin of the Ardrossan Canal, which was immediately north of the main Johnstone station. Johnstone North was north of, and near, Johnstone Bridge, which crossed the Black Cart (near the modern A737 junction). Its branch left the Greenock (G&SWR) line at Cart Junction, which had formed the north apex of the triangle from Johnstone (main line) and Elderslie. The diveunder at Elderslie came later.

When the Dalry and North Johnstone line was constructed (opened 1905) it took a gentler curve from Cart Junction and ran north of the original branch, crossing over it just before Johnstone North and therefore having the new station immediately on the south side of the former one. The original line served small industries and was retained for that purpose; the One Inch Popular series shows that quite well.

As far as I can tell, the station was always Johnstone North, never North Johnstone. Afterbrunel (talk) 14:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC)