Talk:Dame

Comment
Could some one write the various forms of address to one who is a Dame? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.97.199 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 15 August 2006


 * There isn't much to say really. As with Sir, the title is attached to the forename, so Dame Judi Dench is referred to as Dame Judi and not "Dame Dench". Unlike wives of knights, however, the husband of a Dame doesn't get to use a title. Maybe a brief section on form of address could be added to the article.  J Rawle  (Talk) 22:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Some historic information would be nice
I came to Wikipedia to learn about the history (and list) of Dame honors. This article needs a lot of work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.246.36.112 (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC).
 * I also would be interested in the historical background, particularly whether the title is derived from the German word "Dame"... --134.245.141.206 (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been trying to work out the Lady/Dame thing and have not gotten far
I also have queries at the Wiki article on "Lady". Can you cite a warrant (preferably the first one) or document emanting from some authority such as a Monarch, a Duke of Norfolk, a King of Arms, a College of Arms, or court of competent jurisdiction, which makes it official that the wife of a knight (who for purposes of these examples has no other titles or honors) is a Lady and not a Dame? (Obviously in orders where female members are "Ladies" and not "Dames" the wives of male members will be "Ladies".) My concern here is that maybe it is not really granted, in law, that the wife of any knight without higher honors, in an order where female members are "Dames", is a "Lady" and not a "Dame", but, rather, that, like the alleged Nobel Prize in Economics and the belief that everyone who has a coat of arms can say that they have a crest, this is a case where a lie has been repeated so often that nobody can remember that it is false. 64.131.188.104 09:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Notability of Dames
Debate relevant to this article going on here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:39, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 7 April 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain t/ c 14:22, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

– The text at Dame (title), after my recent edit, begins: "Dame is a noble title and the female equivalent of the honour of knighthood" but this is not true within Wikipedia. Knight has its own page while its "female equivalent" does not. GregKaye 08:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Dame (title) → Dame
 * Dame → Dame (disambiguation)


 * Oppose Knight doesn't have other prominent usages such as in panto. Timrollpickering (talk) 08:58, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Timrollpickering, "Oh yes it does" . The thing is that all the various dames and knights were named after the dames and knights in supposed nobility and are namesakes.  If you have thoughts that origins of meaning are not of importance, perhaps you should put these thoughts "behind you".
 * I honestly thought that Primary topic was clear.
 * Dame (title) gets about 250 hits per day
 * Pantomime Dame gets about 40 hits per day
 * GregKaye 11:37, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Support – This is the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. As above, this is the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Zarcadia (talk) 17:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose the primary topic is woman -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 10:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. Zarcadia (talk) 11:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Should woman not just redirect to human, then? Which can redirect to entity? Red Slash 14:29, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * So to you, "woman" is a synonym for "human" which is a synonym of "entity" ? "Dame" is a synonym for "woman", and is used that way. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No, lol, "dame" as described in this article is not a synonym for "female human". Red Slash 03:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that it was. I said the primary topic of "dame" is "woman", and "dame" is a synonym of "woman". This topic, female knight is not the primary topic. The use of "dame" to mean "woman" is used in the world-at-large. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:27, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Support as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC Red Slash 14:29, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:NOTDICT. —  AjaxSmack   01:51, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. Clear primary topic in an encyclopedic settings. Also probably primary in any other setting. Dame meaning woman is slang, and not as far as I know a hugely common one either. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 12:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Female knights

 * So, we have accusations of sexism and of having a "little man ego"! Your poor attitude towards other editors is clearly an issue here. Nobody is trying to silence anything, but you cannot just cut and paste large chunks of material from another article which have no proven relevance to this article. Nobody is disputing the existence of women who fought or women who were members of orders of chivalry, but they were not dames. "Dame" appears to be a specific title introduced by the Order of the British Empire in 1917. If you can find evidence it had an official existence before than by all means add it, but don't just claim that women who fought and women who were members of orders of chivalry were dames. They weren't. "Your attempt to impugn, trivialize and subjugate Damehood in order to make this page align with your paradigm is revolting." Please try to assume good faith. Nobody is trying to do that, least of all someone such as myself who has written reams on the British honours system. Your last sentence seems to almost imply that you think only women should be able to edit this page! -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:58, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, your edit summary "I am not going to compromise" seems to reflect your attitude here. Very poor. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:02, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * No, female knights are not dames. Dame is a specific title, originally introduced in 1917 for the British honours system, and that's what the article is primarily about. Adding irrelevant information is not productive. I didn't say the honours system was restricted to the UK. But you have provided no evidence that the title of dame was historically used outside the Commonwealth or was used at all for female members of orders of chivalry until 1917 (historically it more commonly meant the wife of a knight). Neither did I delete the history section, which is still there. I merely copyedited it. And you simply copied/pasted a list of orders from the knighthood article with no thought to its relevance to this article. Did all those orders have female members? Probably not. Were those members called dames even if they did have female members? Almost certainly not. The protection is only on for a day until you cool down and stop levelling accusations against fellow editors. Then you can hopefully come back and start editing with other editors and not attempting to get into conflict with them. Because at the moment it seems you respond to any disagreement with insults and complete reversion instead of compromise and that is not how we operate on Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:31, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * You do know that "dame" in French just means "lady", right? It's not a title. As to its uses in English (this is English Wikipedia), you probably need to take a look at the Oxford English Dictionary. Its first formal usage as a title was actually by the Primrose League in 1890. Before then it was just a generic term meaning the wife of a man of substance or a term of respect for an elderly woman or a form of address for a powerful noblewoman equivalent to "sire". So I'm ignorant now too? You do say the nicest things! -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:45, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, you will notice that "chevaliere" and "equitissa" are simply feminised versions of the words in those languages for knight. Effectively they could translate as "knightess". This is not the case with dame, which is an entirely separate title which seems to be peculiar to the English-speaking world. Nobody is stopping you creating a separate article on female knights, you know, but there is a difference between them and dames. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Female knight ≠ dame. The Nawab Begums of Bhophal and Queen Mary were knights, not dames, of the Order of the Star of India. Female companions of the Orders of the Garter and the Thistle are knights (if royal) or ladies (if not royal), not dames. Opera hat (talk) 18:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

. I am done here. Lady.de.Clare (talk) 9:51, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: Perspective of this discussion can be found by viewing self-deleted edits here and here. Personally, I believe these edits should be restored to provide historical accuracy - however, as this is a pending Arbcom request, I have no desire to become party to such things. — Ched :  ?  07:06, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Not just English
'Dame' exists outside of the United Kingdom and its Commonwealths as well. The Holy See confers the title of Dame upon people. -- 24.167.189.100 (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150210202543/http://www.debretts.com:80/forms-address/titles/dame to http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/titles/dame
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150316000545/http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/titles/knight/knight-bachelor to http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/titles/knight/knight-bachelor
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150315235706/http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/titles/knight/ladies-garter-and-ladies-thistle to http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/titles/knight/ladies-garter-and-ladies-thistle
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150403024654/https://movies.yahoo.com/person/gwen-ffrangcondavies/biography.html to http://movies.yahoo.com/person/gwen-ffrangcondavies/biography.html

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Equality addressed now in the short description
The former short description ❝Female equivalent of the honour of knighthood in British and Commonwealth honours systems❞ was explaining the matter through a male equivalent. The same isn't the case in the knight article. Whereas knights might arguably be more known, there needs to be a more equal and accurate way to describe who a dame is rather than ❝through the male counterpart❞ if you will. The new short description is ❝Title in British Commonwealth honours systems❞. Most readers already understand that ❝dame❞ is female. The Commonwealth on the other hand is always of British origin, hence ❝and❞ was removed. Thank you for your understanding and co-operation. This should stand the test of time. ToniTurunen (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2022 (UTC)