Talk:Dance in the Dark/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Xtzou ( Talk ) 16:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

(beginning review)

I am having trouble with this review, as I don't understand the language or the way the sources are integrated into the article. Examples:


 * "has a stuttering introduction" - what is a stuttering introduction?
 * The wikilink should be explanatory. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. There is no indication in any of the reviews that the stuttering by Lady Gaga reflects a "speech disorder" as the link states. One review suggests that the intro is organismic moans, which is not "stuttering". Another review refers to stuttering brass in the intro.  Xtzou ( Talk ) 12:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But still, the reviewer felt that the beginning is stuttering. The orgasmic moans comes afterwards. I believe a missing and is necessary. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply So you maintain that the stuttering, a speech disorder, is manifest at the beginning of the song? Can you provide a reference that says that, or is that your interpretationXtzou ( Talk ) 17:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL. Why will it be my interpretation. The source says so. Do you not know about WP:V? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The Independent felt that "Dance in the Dark" had influences of cossack music in it, with the line "Silicone, saline, poison, inject me." - this seems to be taken out of context. The review says "cossack pop", which is different from "cossack music". And it is not clear to me what is meant by the quotation of the line. Is it a sample of cossack pop? I think you need to say what cossack pop is.
 * Cossack pop is a part of the music of the Cossacks, hence saying that it had musical influences of the Cossacks means the same thing. I rearranged the line to read "The Independent felt that the opening line "Silicone, saline, poison, inject me" from "Dance in the Dark" had musical influences of the Russian millitary community, thecossacks in it." --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. Could you provide some sort of reference that this is what Lady Gaga was influenced by. The wikilink you give is to another wikipedia article section with no references and a citation needed tag. Xtzou ( Talk ) 12:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No I can't. Gaga did not say that she is influenced, the reviewer did. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply.Unless you can provide some documentation of Cossack pop, that Lady Gaga was influenced by it, you are engaging in original research if you say she was influenced by Cossack music. Xtzou ( Talk ) 17:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "It also has influences of retro and New Wave music in its composition, with a number of hooks in it." - what does this mean? It is too general a statement and it makes it sound like "a number of hooks" are characteristic of retro, when it is not. Any song could have a number of hooks. The source says "but songs like "Bad Romance" and "Dance in the Dark" are stacked with towering new-wave synths and seemingly endless hooks; if melodies could be time-stamped, these would have "'80s" branded on their asses." Another review (http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/116603-lady-gaga-the-fame-monster) says " stuttering synths and ‘80s drum hits that surround this number creates a bit of a playful (and naughty) atmosphere, bumping up next to the delightfully dirty retro workout “Dance in the Dark” to make for one surprisingly effective pop cocktail."
 * Not necessary. A song may contain a single or multiple hooks based on what makes it more appealing. As per the wiki article, It is hard to define what features make a hook appealing to listeners. While some melodic hooks include skips of a third or more to make the line more interesting, a hook can be equally catchy by employing rhythmic syncopation or other devices. Hence seemingly endless hooks here translates to either more than one hook or to musical passage which is very long. Since as per teh album notes, there is no long passage in the song, hence more than one hook, in this case a large number of, seems like the appropriate choice. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. The way you describe this, it is OR on your part. A hook is common to almost all, if not all songs, and "seemingly endless hooks" is a perception, not a fact, and is very different from stating flatly "a number of hooks", which is a rather meaningless statement on its own. Xtzou ( Talk ) 12:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are two ways to interprete what the reviewer is stating. Either a very long hook (endless) or a number of hooks. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. If you just arbitrarily choose which interpretation to use, you are engaging in original research. Xtzou ( Talk ) 17:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "The lyrics of the song refers to supernatural incidents in the lines "Run run her kiss is a vampire grin/The moonlight's away while she's howlin' at him"." I may be wrong, but I don't think vampires are considered supernatural. I don't think mythological or folklore is the same as supernatural.
 * Changed. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Simon Price from The Independent felt that the "dominant atmosphere and aesthetic" of the song was Gothic." But the review used as a source says "Its first line proper – "I want your ugly, I want your disease..." – sets the tone for an album whose dominant atmosphere and aesthetic, from the monochrome cover shot and the crucifix logo onwards, is small-g gothic." (bolding mine) Not the same thing as Gothic, so this statement is incorrect.
 * Removed. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Xtzou ( Talk ) 23:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ", singing the song "Dance in the Dark" from The Fame Monster, while dancers dressed in white balaclavas and white jumpsuits moved around her." - isn't "from The Fame Monster" unnecessary here?
 * Removed. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I will put this on hold, awaiting editor's answers to my Replies above. <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 22:33, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed these parts which were bothersome to you. Anything else you feel is inconsistent.? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Further comments
 * This reference only mentions this song in passing and should be removed. Only a reader gives an extensive review, and readers are not reliable sources. http://top40.about.com/od/albums/fr/ladygagathefamemonster.htm
 * See below. Bill Lamb is not a reader, he is the About.com guide. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * " but due to a dispute between Gaga and her record company" - do you have a source that says this?
 * It is referenced. REf no. 5 from MTV. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This referenced (http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/116603-lady-gaga-the-fame-monster) just mentions the song in passing.
 * No it doesn't. I'm not sure whether you understand how albums are reviewed, but no one reviews a single in detail. Everyone just gives a passing review for it. Sorry I can't remove that. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "It begins with a stuttering introduction and orgasmic groans, followed by the synth-like voice of Gaga singing the song." This is referenced by http://blog.musicomh.com/musicomh/2009/11/lady-gaga-the-fame-monster-trackbytrack.html, which actually says,     "Ah, the synths are back. After a stuttering intro of orgasmic groans it becomes a little bit Gaga-by-numbers, which is a shame given the standard of the early tracks." It doesn't say anything about the "synth-like voice of Gaga singing".
 * This reference http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/reviews/2009-11-24-listen24_ST2_N.htm says in total " the campy, name-dropping Dance in the Dark, which cops its gabby interlude from Madonna's Vogue, is a frothy New Wave throwback." This article uses this statement to reference two statements: "A spoken intermediate verse, like Madonna's 1990 single "Vogue" is also present." and " Edna Gunderson from USA Today called the song "campy". Piping to Verse (popular music) is misleading. Also, you are using a very short mention in an article to seem as if it is a substantial reference for this song. e.g. http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/13823-the-fame-monster/, where the total mention is 'Madonna on "Dance in the Dark"'
 * Changed the first part to interlude. The second part stays, see above. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.nme.com/reviews/lady-gaga/10984 where the total mention is "Those new songs are fine, even though ‘Dance In The Dark’ and ‘Monster’ are slightly too disposable."  This link is used to reference the statement in the article "this becomes essential for anyone who even remotely likes pop." It is not clear that the article is referring to "Dance in the Dark" in this quote.
 * Removed. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "laser lit video screen featuring scrim lights" - the reference http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_13994185?nclick_check=1 says nothing about scrim lights, or a video screen.
 * Already present. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

(will continue) <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 17:40, 10 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Article says, "She started the performance by sitting in front of a piano and announcing "This is for Alexander McQueen." Gaga was dressed in a complete white outfit with a huge Marie-Antoinette style wig." The reference says (from the Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1251515/Brit-Awards-2010-winners-Lady-GaGa-Lily-Allen-JLS.html): "The star, who also won International Album and International Female Solo Artist, sang lesser known songs Telephone and Dance In The Dark". Therefore, it does not reference the material it purports to.


 * Article says, Before the show, she posted a message on her Twitter account: "Tonight's performance is inspired by our friend. Mask by Phillip Treacy, Sculpture by Nick Knight, Music by Lady Gaga. We miss you." According to the reference at MTV http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1631990/20100216/lady_gaga.jhtml, "She later tweeted, "Tonight's performance is inspired by our friend. Mask by Phillip Treacy, Sculpture by Nick Knight, Music by Lady Gaga. We miss you." So this has nothing to do specifically with the song, but to the entire performance that evening, and she tweeted after the show, not before.


 * From the article: She started the performance by sitting in front of a piano and announcing "This is for Alexander McQueen." Gaga was dressed in a complete white outfit with a huge Marie-Antoinette style wig. The reference says, according to the same source as above, "The star took to the stage in all white and sat at her piano before kicking off her performance with an acoustic version of her song "Telephone." "This is for Alexander McQueen," she told the crowd." Therefore, she is not referring to "Dance in the Dark".'''
 * After the article does say that After finishing an acoustic performance of "Telephone", she got up from her piano. Its obvious that she did not wear a different costume for DITD. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply You say, "Its obvious that she did not wear a different costume for DITD". That is an assumption not stated in your reference. You are reading between the lines. Therefore, that is original research. <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 13:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

"Condoms aren’t female. They’re making female condoms, but right now it’s, 'buy a Trojan' – it’s for men. So everything’s in a man’s power, and women are taught to be receivers… It’s just a very deluded way of looking at sex. [...] I guess all of these new things entering my life are changing the way I view my purpose, but ['Dance in the Dark'] in particular is about me wanting to live — but also, the song isn’t called 'Dance in the Light'. I’m not a gospel singer trying to cross people over. What I’m saying is, 'I get it. I feel you, I feel the same way, and it’s OK.'
 * Article says, "The scrim resembled an electric math grid which was lifted during the performance."  The article says, (from MTV http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628611/20091220/lady_gaga.jhtml):  "Opening with the clubby strains of "Dance in the Dark" (from her recent The Fame Monster album), Gaga strode onstage in a diamond-crusted bodysuit lined with flashing lights, declared herself "a free bi---," then broke into a hip-displacing routine, backed by a trio of sinewy dancers who were dressed in their electro-ninja-mummy finest. As the song ended, she disappeared backstage, only to re-appear a few moments later for "Just Dance," which opened with her playing a keytar inside a glass case, in what appeared to be a subtle nod to the sculptures of British artist Damien Hirst." This says nothing about a "scrim resembled an electric math grid". This is at least the second time I have mentioned the scrim; you say above "Already present", but it is not.
 * There is the Edge magazine reference, plus the Boston Herald reference, both saying the content. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply Please reference the "scrim" statement correctly in the article, whatever source contains the information. The reader cannot be expected to sort through all the references looking for the mention. <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 21:13, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * From the article

"I hope and pray that I can inspire some sort of change in people subliminally through the show. They’re singing 'Dance in the Dark,' but they’re dancing and they’re free, they’re letting it out. But the songs are not about freedom, they’re about [the fact that] I get it. I feel the way you feel."


 * Please read which says, " I think the article uses too much direct quotation especially "Condoms aren’t female ... I feel the way you feel", which is long and unattributed.The nom must read WP:COPYVIO and then paraphrase for most quotes, especially the big one.


 * You have pasted together two different quotations so that another reader thinks it is one big quote. Please paraphrase more and reduce the instances of direct quotes. Some of the quotes I added because I found the review had been copied word for word.


 * Yes, it is used as a quotation, not own interpretation. I will reduce the quote but not remove it. And you are wrong to say that the reader will think it as one different quote. The sources are present and they are not blind that they won't check it. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Reply A reader did think it was one quote. See above diff that shows that it happened. Please read:

<b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 13:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * the nominator maintains that "Containing influences of retro and New Wave music, "Dance in the Dark" begins with a stuttering introduction ..." is correct, including the wikilink to stuttering because one review says " After a stuttering intro of orgasmic groans". There are no references to Lady Gaga having a speech disorder such as stuttering. This is the second time I have address the stuttering issue. The nominator's prior answer was "LOL. Why will it be my interpretation. The source says so. Do you not know about WP:V?"
 * WP:V does not mean you can call something a speech defect arbitrarily.
 * WP:V also states that The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. The source doesnot say that Gaga has a speech disorder, neither does the article. In politest way possible, I would say you are being biased as well as blind to see reason at this point of time. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Relpy Stuttering does not alway mean "speech defect". Another review refers to "stuttering synths". Are you going to say that synths have a speech defect also? <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 13:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * So that means you have a problem with the wiki-link? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 13:25, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply.Don't you find it ridiculous to say Lady Gaga has a speech disorder? You have no problem with that? <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 21:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I am not saying that Gaga has a speech disorder, neither does the article nor the review. From where are you getting that pile load of crap? If you listen to the song, its not even Gaga's voice doing the stuttering. --Legolas [[User talk:Legolas2186| ( talk <font

color="green">2 me ) ]] 03:46, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ReplyI am getting that "load of crap" as you put it, from your link to stuttering. To ask me to "listen" to the song is to ask me to engage in original research. Please address the problems rather than attacking me. <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 21:46, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I cannot help if you are blind to reason. I just can't. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The article misuses brief excerpts, such as those that are one sentence or less, (sentence fragments) from reviews of her album and synopses of her tours, rather than specifically of the song. Example, the complete USA review says, " and the campy, name-dropping "Dance in the Dark", which cops its gabby interlude from Madonna's "Vogue", is a frothy New Wave throwback." But this warrants two separate references in the article to difference parts of the sentence. It seems to me this kind of referencing is misleading.<b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 21:32, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have explained before also, that no reviewer reviews singles in details, except Billboard and probably Digital Spy. They all mention characteristic songs in passing reference and from there we take the reviews. This is not misleading just because you say so. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Article says: " "delightfully dirty retro workout [...] to make for one surprisingly effective pop cocktail." Reference says (http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/116603-lady-gaga-the-fame-monster}: "Although the track “Monster” may occasionally fall apart on the metaphor front (having a boy eat your heart, sure—but eating your brain too?), the stuttering synths and ‘80s drum hits that surround this number creates a bit of a playful (and naughty) atmosphere, bumping up next to the delightfully dirty retro workout “Dance in the Dark” to make for one surprisingly effective pop cocktail."
 * This makes it clear the " one surprisingly effective pop cocktail" refers to "Monster" "bumping up against" "Dance in the Dark", and not "Dance in the Dark" alone being "for one surprisingly effective pop cocktail." <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 13:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Have added "alongwith monster". --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:46, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

"All of these new things entering my life are changing the way I view my purpose, but ['Dance in the Dark'] in particular is about me wanting to live — but also, the song isn’t called 'Dance in the Light'. I’m not a gospel singer trying to cross people over. What I’m saying is, 'I get it. I feel you, I feel the same way, and it’s OK.'
 * Article uses quotes inaccurately. The quote below is a combination of quotes from two different articles, but some words that are not in either reference.

"I hope and pray that I can inspire some sort of change in people subliminally through the show. They’re singing 'Dance in the Dark,' but they’re dancing and they’re free, they’re letting it out. But the songs are not about freedom, they’re about [the fact that] I get it. I feel the way you feel."


 * 'The first part of the quote is not in either reference given for the two amalgamated quotes. The second is a direct quote from another article. <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk )'' 16:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I have moved the quotes at the end. They are present. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:46, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It is misleading to present them as one quote, whether or not you put the references at the end. It is unethical to say the least.
 * Interlude needs disambiguation
 * What is meant by "artifice of appearance". It is meaningless to quote something that is not explained,

 GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria


 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose quality: Much of the language is misleading
 * B. MoS compliance: Complies with the required  MoS elements
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. References to sources: Many of the references do not deal directly with the song but rather the album or the promotional tour.
 * B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: References are misleading in places, such as amalgamating quotes from two different sources and presenting them as one quote.
 * C. No original research: Uses sentence fragments in a reference as a source for the article, combining them in a novel way. Asks me to "listen" to song to detect whether there is stuttering or not.
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * B. Focused:  Combines the promotional tour, references to the album, and references to the song without distinguishing the difference
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail: Pass!
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail: Pass!
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail: Pass!
 * Pass or Fail: Pass!

If you feel this is in error, you may request a Good article reassessment. Regards, <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 21:46, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously I think this is in error, but the question is what are you exactly doing? Are you failing or waiting because your edit summary says GA fail. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)