Talk:Dandy

Accuracy of etymology
1775:


 * ''Yankee doodle went to town, riding on a pony.
 * Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni.
 * Yankee doodle keep it up.
 * Yankee doodle DANDY.
 * Mind the music and the steps and
 * let the girls be handy.''

DANDY predates 1790 by at least 15 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs)

Yankee Doodle may date to the 1750s, but if you have a look at the wikipedia page on it, the original lyrics are quite different to those sung today and don't seem to include the word 'dandy. The current full Oxford English Dictionary gives the earliest printed citation as "c1780 Sc. Song (see N. & Q. 8th Ser. IV. 81), I've heard my granny crack O' sixty twa years back When there were sic a stock of Dandies O; Oh they gaed to Kirk and Fair, Wi' their ribbons round their hair, And their stumpie drugget coats, quite the Dandy O.", where it at least seems to be being used in the same basic sense as in the current version of Yankee Doodle. The OED doesn't reference the song Yankee Doodle (although the OED possibly isn't the best source on early European American words - their first cite for 'Yankee/Yankey/Yankie' isn't until 1765). I'll come back in a couple of days and if no-one has added any comments here I'll edit the article to at least reference the OED citation. Caitifty (talk) 03:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Bourgeois values
I have removed the phrases "rejects bourgeois values" and "counter-cultural" from the definition, as I don't believe they reflect the more nuanced attitude of the dandy towards society. &mdash;Ashley Y 04:47, 2005 May 29 (UTC)


 * If you think that a dandy accepts bourgeois values, you must have a highly personal interpretation of "bourgeois". Please explain your changes here. --Wetman 06:39, 29 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I have no idea where you got the impression that I think a dandy accepts bourgeois values. And I just did explain my changes here. &mdash;Ashley Y 06:06, 2005 May 30 (UTC)


 * (Silly Wetman: he thought "I have removed the phrases "rejects bourgeois values"" meant that this person thought that a dandy doesn't reject bourgeois values. He should have realized that the phrase simply wasn't liked.) --Wetman 03:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Female Dandy
I’ve edited and clarified the section on female dandies, it application and evolution. During the Regency period, when “dandy” had a more immature meaning of “fop”, then the notion of female dandies are documented in the historic literature. At this time, they were called dandyess, dandizette, dandysette, or dandisette. Then, after “dandy” took on it more modern day meaning of refinement, it became applied exclusively to men. Ladies could not be dandies, any more than men could become lesbians. Instead, the female side branched out and developed own distinct philosophy, called quaintrellism. This split is better noted and explained.

Though I appreciate the identification of the courtesan as the female dandy, I would argue that the Vamp in the Theda Bara style might be more appropriate. This image captures the inner pride of the dandy whilst using her beauty and sexuality to make an impact. DLS


 * All definitions of "dandy" do apply to Theda Bara. Go for it, keeping strictly to an application of the definitions (skirting Original Research). Another female dandy: The flamboyant marchesa Luisa Casati, hostess to the Ballets Russes in the Palazzo "Non Finita" (now the Peggy Guggenheim Museum), Venice, and the subject of numerous portraits by Boldini, Troubetzkoy, Man Ray and Augustus John.  She walked a pair of ocelots on leashes, and the Venetians at any rate were thoroughly epatés...--Wetman 20:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I updated the section upon female dandies, based upon recent research for quaintrelles. Since quaintrelles actually predate dandizettes, the previous notion that quaintrelles emerged from dandizettes was incorrect. Then, I removed the section on possible quaintrelles, since two of the three examples are incorrect. The courtesan Cora Pearl would not a quaintrelle, since quaintrelles use strength of style and personality, instead of their body, to gain renown. Then, the artistic diva, would be no more a quaintrelle than any other subsets of artists or ladies of title. Timmbbo (talk) 22:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Recent editing
A clueless hash-up of this article has been made today by someone who thinks "18th century' means the 1800s, thinks that dandyism is passé and can't spell Britain. --Wetman 09:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I messed up the centuries and spelled someting wrong. So instead of complaining why didn't you correct it yourself? Much easier. Also, the article said dandyism was mostly a thing of the past before I edited it, which I did by the way because it had no sections and was pretty incoherent. But if this is your baby and you want to revert it, I won't fight you. Mjk2357 19:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Metrosexual
I was thinking a discussion of dandies in relation to metrosexuality would be a good addition.
 * Excellent. Give it a header :Main article: Metrosexual and don't be shy to adapt any material you find there that relates to "dandy". (Don't cannibalize Metrosexual, though.) And why not log in!--Wetman 10:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Flâneur
This article definitely should mention the flâneur. I'm pretty sure that flânerie is the older of the two trends, and that dandyism is supposed to have emerged from it in some obscure way, possibly under commercial pressures. Speaking of which, dandyism probably deserves some consideration as an early example of the subculture under modern mass society. --WadeMcR 08:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Needs rewrite
I think this article, or at least the first paragraph, needs rescuing from its "Baudelairean" POV. There are others, after all.

A dandy is a man who cares to dress well. Let's start with something like that. Then all the nonsense about "elevates aesthetics to a living religion", "rejects bourgeois values" and so forth can be attributed to the various points of view of various authors. &mdash;Ashley Y 08:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Find other points of view and report on them, using some illuminating direct quotes. Baudelaire's published views on the subject are incontrovertibly mainstream, whether or not one likes them. --Wetman 22:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Baudelaire's views are mainstream? You should probably provide evidence for that in the article if you're going to give him such prominence. I would say that his views are in the mainstream but certainly do not represent more than part of it.


 * Also "incontrovertibly" is as bad as "considered by many". &mdash;Ashley Y 00:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Yes, Miss, Baudelaire's views are incontrovertibly mainstream. His essay on dandyism is among the external links. It has been translated into English, so your lack of French won't be an excuse.. Reading it might make a beginning.--Wetman 04:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The question, of course, is whether reading it also makes an end. And might I suggest there's a certain circularity in pointing to an author's own work in trying to demonstrate its significance? I can hardly deny the enormous influence he had on himself. But what does it mean for the rest of us?


 * Beerbohm, for instance, provides a slightly different view, as does the less sympathetic Carlyle. One might argue that it's all of a piece, and I won't deny that these viewpoints and others listed have much more in common than they differ. But it's together that they make the mainstream. Religious social conservativism is regarded by many as mainstream in American politics, for instance, but to begin an article on the latter with the remark that "America is a sinful nation" or somesuch would be as out of place there as some of the more, shall we say, "French" ideas of Baudelaire are at the beginning of this article. &mdash;Ashley Y 07:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Gay Dandies
I could swear I'd seen references to gay dandies. Obviously, there's Wilde. Would it be acceptable to include a section on gay male dandies? samwaltz 09:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems appropriate. I've only ever seen dandy in reference to homosexual people in modern "pop-culture" i.e. Mr. Show, Yankee Doodle et. all. Rekutyn (talk) 07:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Dandy and Class
From article para 1: "thus a dandy could be considered a kind of snob, or, alternatively, either a warrior in the class struggle or a class traitor."

If we are mainly talking about dandies in their heyday, early 19th century, then the reference to class is quite anachronistic - Marxism hadn't even been formulated, and I doubt any dandy would have thought in terms of class struggle even if it had. I note that someone has put a citation-need tag against that assertion - because it does stand as a bold assertion at the beginning of the article, with no development of this theme, or even supporting references for the assertion, within the article.

I have deleted the the references to class. If someone can point to previously published analysis, then include it back into the article. However, because of the anachronism involved, I wouldn't think Marxist class terminology would be appropriate for the introductory first paragraph. --Iacobus 01:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

= protestestations? = Given these connotations, dandyism can be seen as apolitical protestestations against the rise of egalitarian principles — often including nostalgic.... Is that a word? I'm no native speaker of English Lio 19:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a word I've seen used before, but I don't think it's a particularly good word, since the simpler protest/protests will do fine. --Iacobus 05:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems it was changed to protestations --Lio 20:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think pro-testes-tastions is another word for to tea-bagging. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.198 (talk) 22:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

= Later Dandyism =

Iv added a small bit about an arts collective i read about, i just need someone who has the know-how to format it a bit better. iv put all the info there just needs formatted sorry im not so clever in regards to editting references etc. it was just a small piece i read in a magasine which is relevant. Thanks.

False quote?
Is that second, almost identical quote bogus? 80.175.158.1 (talk) 14:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

…3"48 P.M. E.S.T. A Representational Effort. Expressions possibly used. Why Daddy their just Dandy possible meaning in good behavior. That representation is a strong gathering of the Female sex and a possible colaberated conversation towards her parents. And for the Male issue pertaining the language of Just Dandy or yes just dandy perhaps pertaining to in thought and just yet all is well, though may convey it deeper as challenged or to the acception also addmittance of or towards a conversation. In all,all shall be in good or a fair discription.

The tune Yankee Doodle Dandy is perhaps nothing to mess with. For instence it did come after the Committee of Fifty and Committee Of Correspondence and also the committee of sixty wich had the representatives of the DeLancey Faction and the usuals of New York wich had formed the Sons Of Liberty. reread the formations of Adams from the tea act north to south,and why an importation act would'nt of worked though at first was a fair representation of conduct wich possibly was a meaning for all to join in towards the representation of a form act wich perhaps is some form of a taxation perhaps, and still is a very interesting consideration David George DeLancey 4:09 P.M. E.S.T.David George DeLancey (talk) 20:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Splendid POV tagging
We owe a vote of thanks to User:Beland who so generously scattered "fact" and "pov' notices throughout the text, 23 March 2008. That's editing!--Wetman (talk) 08:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggested Change to Improve Clarity
My suggestion is in regards to the following quote from the article:

In the 21st century, the word "dandy" is a jocular, often sarcastic adjective meaning "fine" or "great", while "a dandy" refers to a well-groomed, well-dressed, and self-absorbed man.

I think the intended meaning of the sentence may be obvious to those already familiar with the word, but the sentence is not clearly worded. When the word dandy is used sarcastically, the intention is the inversion of its meaning. The quoted text above implies that when dandy is used sarcastically, it means fine or great, when, in fact, the opposite is true. I think paragraph should be reworded as follows: In the 21st century, "dandy" can be used as a noun meaning "a well-groomed, well-dressed, and self-absorbed man". As an adjective, "dandy" means "fine" or "great", however, it is often used sarcastically to indicate the opposite meaning.

This change is minor, especially if you are familiar with the word and its common usage. However, I think it's important to keep in mind how articles will be perceived by non-anglophones who are not familiar with the colloquial uses of the term.

RationalResponse (talk) 23:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The US South or at least Louisiana
I seem to recall there being some kind of "Southern dandy" thing, I got here through an article on a Louisiana politician, but I'm not sure any Southerner is mentioned in this. Am I mistaken?--T. Anthony (talk) 16:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Dandy/macAroni confusion
firstly the long lists and picture collection near the end of the article look awful, and secondly I think some mention should be made of the fact that when most people think of a dandy, what they actually have in mind is a macaroni. Dandys were elegant, subtle, and refined, whereas macaronis were a riot of colour, effeminate manners, quizzing glasses and ludicrous wigs. 31.53.31.161 (talk) 14:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Very modern dandies.
Would you include ... Stephen Fry? David Beckham? Michael Douglas? The young Hugh Hefner? Some of the Black Rapper-style musicians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.5.121 (talk) 11:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

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= "dandy" vs "dandyism" and integration between languages =

In English Wikipedia there is an article about "dandy" though there is no article about "dandyism". On the other hand Spanish Wikipedia has articles about both "dandy" and "dandyism". There are also five languages: Català, עברית, Italiano, 한국어, Polski - in which there is an article about "dandyism" and not about "dandy". I believe it should be unified so that all these articles in all languages would be linked together. Helias (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandi
 * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandismo

Wiki Education assignment: Detective Fiction
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