Talk:Danes/Archive 1

Germany
Revised the number of Danes in Germany up to 150,000 as the previous number 50,000 only covers the Danish minority in Schleswig and the total number of ethnic Danes in all of Germany must be much larger then that. Probably this is on the low side, but as with most non-immigration-based nations, getting ancestry data in Germany is quiet difficult. Justpedersen 03:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the entry. Guessing at numbers in an encyclopedia helps nobody.--Per Abrahamsen 19:46, 16

In 1943 Nazi Germany want the Danish Jew to Germany, nearly Danish was against that, and help the Jews to Sweden.

why delete this text?


 * I didn't delete the text, but I'm not sure any of the claims are true. Not realy false either.  They are a particular point of view we adopted after the war, because it was comforting internally, and politically convenient externally.  Everybody wants to be the hero of their own story.--Per Abrahamsen 08:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

1,430,000 million danes in the USA?
The box needs to be edited so it doesn't suggest that there are 1,430,000 million danes in the USA. Or is there someting I don't know?

The information is inaccurate on many points, and should be revised.


 * I commented out all the minority estimates that didn't have references. The numbers look to me very arbitrary, and the Danish minority in Germany was almost an order of magnitude off compared to the nyumber given in Germany.  No numbers are better than wrong numbers (and no, an "est." does not excuse an order of magnitude error).--Per Abrahamsen 13:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I also think that 1.5 million "descendants" sounds a bit questionable. After 4-5 generations most of their Danish heritage must have faded away. However, I read somewhere on wikipedia, that there are about 40 million Americans who define themselves as being "of Irish origin". I believe those people are actually as far from their emigrating ancestors' culture, as other American-Europeans. Medico80 16:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a typical american statistics. It is the number of americans who check "primarily danish" in the US census. It is consistant with the number of "Irish" or "Swedish" in the US. As such is just a number of americans who consider themselves danish-americans. carewolf 22:31 23 January (UTC)


 * So can we remove it? 217.157.128.95 (talk) 07:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Picture
Who is the guy in the picture? Is he Danish and does he have a name? CambridgeBayWeather 00:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Now that the personal picture has been removed-- and thank you for doing it-- was there a plan for what picture, if any, should be in the box? In my opinion having the text saying "Image" will just invite someone else to put in a picture of something else. --SFDan 13:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added a picture of Hans Christian Andersen from the Commons but what is needed is something similar to what is show at English people. CambridgeBayWeather 15:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, the English people picture is pretty good. So how about nominating some people for a Danish version - we can just cut/paste from the pics in Commons. I think Hans Christian Andersen and Niels Bohr are dead give-aways. Then, to be different, how about Peter Schmeichel/Michael Laudrup? A viking, Christian IV, Christian IX, Margrethe II, Bertel Thorvaldsen, or Johannes V. Jensen - or someone/thing completely different. The Little Mermaid? HCA pic, Bohr pic. Poulsen 23:24, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Karen Blixen is the most famous dead Danish woman. The most famous living Danish woman is Katja Kean.  But I think pictures of her cost money.  Søren Kierkegaard and Tycho Brahe would be #3 and #4 in the dead male Danes hit list.  Among living Danes, Lars von Trier and Viggo Mortensen are significantly more famous than the rest of us.  That is using google hits as a measure, and ignoring peoplewho work with computers (who tend to get lots of Google hits).  My suggestion would be to add Karen Blixen, Søren Kierkegaard, and maybe Viggo Mortensen. And of course, HCA and NB as you suggested. --Per Abrahamsen 22:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, as I see it: HCA, Kierkegaard - Bohr/Blixen/Brahe. Bohr and Blixen are in almost identical periods of time, with Brahe representing a whole different period than any of the others. Furthermore HCA, Kierkegaard and Blixen would make three authors (in one form or another) - but, as you mention, short of Katja K, it would be good to represent Danish women with Blixen. I can't make up my mind. Of course we might just use five (or three) images.Poulsen 22:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

(Fair use images: Image:Dogville 098-27c.jpg Image:LOTRROTKmovie.jpg)
 * I think we need Blixen due to gender and hca because he probably is the embodiment of Denmark in the eyes of the rest of the world. Even if that is two authors.  I'd like one contemporary, and Viggo is the one most will recognize, especially younger people.  He is also a Dane of heritage, rather than citizenship, and it is nice for this particular article which makes a point of the difference.  I'd select Tycho as the fourth because he is from another time period.  This, sadly, means goodbye to Bohr, who by far is my personal hero of the lot.  However, we already have a scientist (Brahe) and a person from the period (Blixen).  Leaving out Kierkegaard hurts too, but HCA is soo much more recognizable.  So Tycho, HCA, Blixen and Viggo would be my suggestion.--Per Abrahamsen 08:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, how about NFS Grundtvig? He is far from the most recognized Dane abroad, but he probably has done more than anyone else to shape the peculiar Danish national identity.--Per Abrahamsen 08:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'ld like to hear some more opinions before deciding.Poulsen 11:23, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Not HCA, precisely because he is probably the best known outside of Denmark. I think that it would be better to show less well known people, thus informing. I would like to suggest Vitus Bering or Knud Johan Victor Rasmussen (look at where I live). If you want someone who is more contemporary then why not go with Bjarne Riis, Peter Schmeichel, Bjarne Stroustrup or (only as a last resort) Lars Ulrich.
 * I've slowly begun mixing some images together, though nothing fancy. If anybody knows how to do pretty graphics, they're more than welcome to throw a few minutes into a good image :) Poulsen 22:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Roman-Catholic
I know there is a small Roman-Catholic community in Denmark, but does it consists of ethnic Danes? Too a larger degree than ther other religious minorities, like jews or moslems? Or scientologists, or Jehovas Witnesses and whatever?

I'd expect most of the roman catholics to be not completely assimilated immigrants and decendans, rather than remnents of the pre-reformation catholic community.--Per Abrahamsen 20:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Danish descenters
There are some descenters of Danish origen in the US. But what about those after the Treaty of Roskilde in the 16 Centery? Where the Danish provinces of Scania, Halland and Blekinge was given to Sweden.


 * They have been subjected to a rather heavy-handed, if incomplete, swedification. I believe their official status is a seperate Swedish minority, rather than as a Danish minority in Sweden.--Per Abrahamsen 17:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The Skåne region (the terriority in question) has a unique regional identity, claiming to be neither Swedish nor Danish. Almost to the point, the flag of Skåne is a yellow cross over a red background and thus a perfect mix of the Swedish yellow over blue and the Danish white over red. Justpedersen 23:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Danes a Germanic people?
This article is included in the category Germanic peoples along with other modern national groups (Swedes, English, Dutch), although no source is given for the claims. I nominated the category for deletion - see its entry here - because it includes modern groups under a historical term (Roman period to mediaeval). The category is being used for a political agenda, to promote the idea that ethnic groups and nations in north-west Europe are "Germanic". That claim is typically associated with neo-nazi groups, for the association of the term Germanic peoples with Nazism, see Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Lebensraum, and for instance Hitler salute. As with the Swedes, the issue here is also whether Danes describe themselves as a "Germanic people".Paul111 20:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You do not have to place the exact same message on every talkpage which falls into the Germanic peoples category. 1 is enough.Rex 21:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have often heard Danes being described as Germanic people, and never with any nazi-connotations. I believe it has most to do with language, learning another one of the Germanic languages is a lot easier than learning a Latin-based or Slavic language.--Per Abrahamsen 09:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have unfortunaltely engaged this person in discussion of this topic at Talk:Norwegian people. Paul has placed a disputed tag on the article itself because he disputes the Norwegians being a Germanic people. Are the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians Germanic peoples? If not what are they? Any contribution is helpfull.Inge 14:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Lutheranism? What?
I think there must be some mistake here. Can we verify this somehow? The majority of Danes are atheists and protestant as far as I know, but I can't seem to find a lot of evidence that supports either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.81.84.207 (talk) 13:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC).


 * 83.1% of the Danish citizens are members of the state church, which is both Lutheran and protestant. I'd expect the number to be higher among ethnic Danes than among Danish citizens.  Most Danes are not very religious though.  --Per Abrahamsen 16:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that membership of the State Church is more or less automatic, and hence is a poor indicator of how many Danes are actually religious. It also seems that most people simply do not bother to leave the church, even if they are not religious. -- 87.72.113.232 15:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone put in a relevant paragraph about studies and surveys showing that Danes are among the most atheistic people in the world. This was reversed by Per Abrahamsen with an arrogant statement that there is "no need" for that list. If this is not POV I don't know what is. And his statement that "80%+ remain church members, so Danes don't qualify for being atheists" is misunderstood. Atheists are defined by their lack of belief in gods - not by lack of church membership. And the quoted studies shows that Danes don't believe in gods and hence that they are indeed atheists. Furthermore Per Abrahamsen didn't even bother to comment on the above comment about church membership even though it is relevant input to the reversal he just went ahead and made. 193.149.191.1 08:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Per Abrahamsen didn't make that revert. See the edit log, I did, and I did so because I agree with his reasoning. Here is the defintion from Den Store Danske Encyklopædi (quote): Ateisme. Afvisning af eksistensen af en personlig gud eller et højere styrende princip. Som sådan må ateisme skelnes fra agnosticisme, der anser spørgsmålet om Guds eksistens for at ligge uden for erkendelsens grænser. Som -isme er ateisme en lære eller en teoretisk holdning, der er forskellig fra irreligiøsitet. (Literal translation: "Ateism. The rejection of the existance of a personal god or a higher guiding principle. As such, atheism is to be distinguished from agnosticism, which considers the question about the existance of God to be outside the borders of cognition. As an -ism, atheism means a teaching or theoretical attitude which differs from "irreligiøsitet" (lack of active religious practice)." (unquote).


 * Being a largely secularist country is a precise description, which places Denmark on par with the larger cities in e.g. Turkey. But the latter isn't normally described as an atheist country either. Membership in the Church of Denmark requires an active action from the parents to have their child baptised, it requires that the child accepts confirmation and "kristendomsundervisning" (lit: "Christianity instruction") at age 13-14 and it requires that the adult person pays the church tax. Anybody that has a wish to terminate his/her relationship to the church can easily do so, by simply stating so at the local parish office. Interestingly, most Danes *don't* do this. Valentinian T / C 13:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * From the definition of agnosticism by Den Store Danske Encyklopædi : (quote) I modsætning til ateismen, der afviser, at Gud eksisterer, hævder agnosticismen, at spørgsmålet herom ikke lader sig besvare. I en bredere betydning udtrykker agnosticismen det erkendelsesteoretiske standpunkt, at virkeligheden, dvs. sandheden, ikke kan erkendes. Se også skepticisme. (="In contrast to atheism which rejects the existance of God, agnosticism claims that any such question cannot be answered. In a broader meaning, agnosticism represents a erkendelsesteori point of view that reality, i.e. truth, cannot be understood cognitively. See also "skepticism". (unquote). "Erkendelsesteori" is the same concept as the German "Erkenntnistheorie" described in the latter section of Epistemology. I think a layman's translation would be that the existance of God cannot be proven by mere deduction. In Denmark, the average man on the street will indeed confirm that one cannot prove the existance of God scientifically, but that is a far cry from proving that the same people categorically reject the existance of a higher being. Valentinian T / C 13:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * From the definition of atheism by [| Wikipedia]: "When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism." So claiming that a very large share of Danes are atheists is indeed correct! And even if you had been right that Danes do not qualify as atheists that would still not make it less POV to say that there is "no need" for the paragraph about the nonbelief of Danes. Especially since the deleted paragraph was substantiated - unlike your claim that "the average man on the street will indeed confirm" ... And even if your claim is right that is a different matter: You can be an atheist (or theist) and an agnostic at the same time. So, like the church membership, it is irrelevant for the question of whether or not people are atheists 193.149.191.1 09:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting by the way, how the edit log has been changed since I last looked at it!! Now the POV "no need" explanation etc. has mysteriously vanished. Not exactly something that increases your credibility 193.149.191.1 09:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I see it quite apparently: and I'm not really interested in smears. If you read my edit, the list I refer to is the grab-bag list of places where Danes live, which is plain useless. Danes live in Dubai too, so what? Valentinian T / C 11:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And I don't consider it particularly POV to use a standard Danish definition of "atheism" as long as we are dealing with Danish affairs, or to point out that 80%+ of Danish citizens are members of the Church of Denmark. If you wish to prove that these 80%+ are actually closet atheists and committing a sham by remaining in the Church of Denmark, then you need to back this story up by a lot of credible research. I have seen one opinion, not a wide range of documentation. The poll in Kristelig Dagblad is exactly that: a poll. The poll in intersting, sure, but it doesn't qualify as solid documentation for anything. How many were interviewed? Were they selected representatively? How many actually responded? Did the pollsters conduct their poll during work hours and if so, correct for the fact that most people aged 20-60 would be at work and thus unable to return the call? How did they modify the results gained to compensate for the proportion of people that didn't respond? Just to raise a few of the problems that are inherent in any opinion poll. Valentinian T / C 11:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as a "Danish definition" of atheism. There are broad and narrow definitions of atheism and from what you quote, Den Store Danske Encyklopædi gives a poor introduction to atheism where it equals it with "explicit atheism". Unless you have left something out the article here on Wikipedia is clearly of a higher standard than the dictionary type definition in Den Store Danske Encyklopædi.

You wrote: "If you wish to prove that these 80%+ are actually closet atheists and committing a sham by remaining in the Church of Denmark, ...". Now, this is just a very transparent strawman. No one has claimed that 80+% are committing a sham. But as a Dane I am sure you know perfectly well that membership of the Danish state church is by no means an indication of faith. And when several surveys are presented that indicate that a large portion of the population does in fact not believe in any gods then surely that is relevant for the issue of the belief of the Danes. Even if you should for some reason or another want to qualify it as "implicit atheism". 193.149.191.1 14:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, there is no "Danish" definition of atheism, but the definition I just cited is very oftenly heard in Denmark, and it follows rather logically from the entymology of the word. I think we both agree that the vast majority of Danes don't actively practice religion, and that religion has a very minor space in public life (except whenever a debate flares up concerning Muslim headwear). In contrast, most Poles are active churchgoers and political issues are routinely commented on by Catholic clerics. But the crux of atheism remains a rejection of the mere concept of the existence of any being whose existence cannot be proven using deduction and/or scientific methods. I still don't see any major evidence presented that the average Church of Denmark member squarely rejects the concept of the mere existence of a spiritual being. As long as we don't have firm basis behind such a statement, I disagree that the Danish population can be described as atheist. A large segment of it can be described as agnostics, but to label a majority of Danes atheists "en bloc" requires additional proof.
 * Taken as a unit, Denmark has a large proportion of anti-religious people, I agree there, and it has a large majority of CoD members that are very far from active practitioners of religion. Both issues can be addressed in the article citing solid referencing. But simply claiming in an infobox that 80%+ of Danes are CoD members and that 50%+ of Danes deny the existence of the mere concept of a theism or similar is not an accurate or neutral way to describe this situation. Besides, I believe that the word "hypocritical" is accurate. I've never been a member of any type of association where I didn't believed in its statement of purpose, no matter its type (sports, social, political). If I did not believe in its statement of purpose, then I would indeed be a hypocrite if I either joined or remained in any such association nomatter its type. If the average Dane squarely believes that no gods / theisms exists, I'd expect people to have as much backbone that they would be able to avoid membership of the CoD or any other religious denomination. Valentinian T / C 16:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am glad we can at least agree to use standard definitions and not perceived 'national definitions'. That the simplified definition is frequently used in Denmark (as it is in a lot of other places) does not make it any better. And lets not go down the etymology path - it is a poor indicator as to the current use of any word. I see that you still insist upon identifying "atheism" with "explicit atheism", which is POV when "implicit atheism" is clearly acknowledged - just read the atheism article here on Wikipedia. You also still do not seem to acknowledge that you can be an agnostic (without knowledge) and still be a theist/atheist (with/without faith) at the same time and that this makes your agnostic arguments irrelevant. You also discard several surveys showing that a great deal of Danes do - by their own account - not believe in Gods and you do it merely by stating that this cannot be taken as a proof of nonbelief. And yet you have no similar reservation about labelling them christians/protestants merely because of their church membership despite the huge numbers that are clearly passive members enrolled more or less automatically as infants. You even seem willing to label them agnostics based on your own gut feeling. This approach is clearly biased. And your personal thoughts about hypocracy and how Danes in your mind ought to act re. church membership are clearly irrelevant. 193.149.191.1 09:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left here. Ling.Nut 23:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The photo box of famous Danes
Why not also adding living persons like Viggo Mortensen or Peter Schmeichel? AlphaBo 09:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Viggo Mortensen isnt danish, he is danish-american.
 * In which case he is also Danish. Besides that calling him Danish-American is no more correct than calling Peter Schmeichel Danish-Briton. Dylansmrjones (talk) 04:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Religion
Most Danes are members of the state Church and identify themselves as Christians, but not religious. Going into what people believe in things get really muddy. I don't believe an info-box is the right place for that. --Per Abrahamsen 08:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

In response to Mr. Abramsen: Member of the church, yes, identify as Christians is far rarer, from my experience. Very few will actually back up the Lutherian Protestant church, if actually asked about any details (which none of them known anyway... most Danes are unable to name the three biggest events of the church year.) From a google search I got a reference to another study, which claimed that På spørgsmålet: »Betragter De Dem selv som religiøs eller religiøst søgende?« Svarede: 43 % sagde ja (15-34 år 35%) 53 % nej (15-34 år 62%) Kilde: Kristeligt Dagblad 7.01.00 Translated to the best of my ability, the question asked was "Do you consider yourself as religious or as seeking religion"? to which 43% said yes, and 53% said no. From this, it would be fair to claim to that atheist is the largest religious grouping, though very few Danes would actually identify themselves as atheist. Another, and perhaps better, solution would be to leave out the infobox on religion entirely and write a paragraph which includes the apparent conflict between a high membership rate of the church, and the high number of "functional atheists" or whatever we should call them. All this is of course assuming that the worldwide population of Danes is pretty close to the ones living in Denmark. Comments? Esben 14:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Danes in St. Petersburg
"Some Danes today also live in St. Petersburg, Russia." Yes and some Danes live in London, Paris, Berlin, Malmö etc. It will be a long list if you have to mention cities where "some Danes" live. And St. Petersburg would certainly not be at the top of that list 193.149.191.1 12:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The new image of famous Danes
I have selected Karen Blixen since it needed at least one woman. Peter Schmeichel because it needed a sports/entertainment star, and i changed Canute the Great with Sweyn Forkbeard, since Sweyn had a bigger status in Denmark since he has founded many towns in Zealand and Scania, and likely founder of this day's capital Copenhagen. --Mrjungle (talk) 14:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)