Talk:Dante Alighieri/Archive N

Twin
While Dante's birthdate is conjectural, it should perhaps be mentioned that, as emphatically stated by himself ("O glorïose stelle, o lume pregno di gran virtù, dal quale io riconosco tutto, qual che si sia, il mio ingegno"), Dante was born under the sign of the Twins. Mind that the dates corresponding to astrological signs have changed in time, partly due to the adoption of the Gregorian calendar (e.g. Leonardo, born on April 15, was a Taurus). L&#39;omo del batocio (talk) 10:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In English: Thou hadst not thrust thy finger in the fire/And drawn it out again, before I saw/'the sign that follows Taurus, and was in it./O glorious stars, O light impregnated/with mighty virtue, from which I acknowledge/All of my genius, whatsoe'er it be. Paradise, XXIII. 79.32.5.216 (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

is considered one of the last and greatest literary statements produced during the Middle Ages.
I would propose to write something different. Linking Dante to middle age appears very limited, the influenceo of Dante in any time is enourmous and it goes beyond middle ages..

The wiki italian article is exagerated (saying that Divine commedy is the greatest litetrature work ever), but the French seems a good one.. From the French Wiki article: Dante est le premier grand poète de langue italienne et son livre La Divine Comédie est considéré comme l'un des grands chefs-d’œuvre de la littérature universelle.

=Dante is the first great italian poet and its work La Divina Commedia is considered as one of the great masterpiece of the universal literature.

I propose to put this at the beginning..


 * The italian article doesn't say that is the greatest literature work ever (and even if, it should not be exagerated in my opinion; have you read the Commedia?); it just say that is the greatest work according to Borges, Milton, Leopardi opinion.
 * Dante is not the first great italian poet. He is important for his great work in standardization of the italian language. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.59.146.64 (talk) 01:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Radiohead
The 'See Also' section claims that three Radiohead albums allude to Dante. How and where? I've listened to all three albums and found nothing.

Before changing text, I'd enjoy some other opinions about.I think that he was a cery educated man he did all that he could in his life he contributed to writing and we are thankful for it

Really, AFAIK Dante is not usually considered in relationship with Renaissance, but better with "Dolce Stil Novo", a form of italian poetry with Petrarca, Guinizzelli and others.

Could someone verify this point, please, and see whether it would be advisable to correct statement?

Also, in Italy Dante is not generally considered a master of objectivity (his Hell is crowded with political enemies), so "His own views were independent and fiercely patriotic" could perhaps be better expressed as  "His own views were not independent and fiercely partisan"

"... he established that the Italian language was suitable for the highest sort of expression ... "

This was stated centuries after, a posteriori, when Tuscan dialect already had become the main structure for italian, that simply did not exist at that time nor it was foreseen (there was no idea of Italy as a united country or single nation). Tuscan was elected as the main structure for italian also because of the dimensions of the whole of Dante's work (not only the Commedia), but a relevant role was played by the influence of Pisa's power and of many important tuscan people in Rome (like Michelangelo and several popes).
 * To say that "there was no idea of Italy" before of its unification seems really to be a very fashon idea; this is written in almost every page of en.wiki. But is simply false. And maybe also offensive. Somebody should read what an author wrote before writting articles about him. Dante the same, in La Divina Commedia, in the book Inferno, in the Canto I, line 100-111, wrote about his hope in an unification of Italy. The same Dante in De Vulgari Eloquentia wrote about the importance of create a standard language for Italy and so, afther a great work of research and classification he created the language in which he wrote La Divina Commedia, that was not Tuscan but Italian (so called since he so callad it). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.59.146.64 (talk) 01:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC).


 * I think you might be on to something here. Dante had a far more Medieval mindset than a Renaissance one. His only real connection with the early Renaissance is that it was occurring around him -- he was off doing his own thing extending and modifying Medieval thought. I simply don't know enough about Dante or Italian history to respond to your other points -- although they seem to be good ones. Go ahead and make the modifications you think are necessary. If the primary author of this page disagrees then you can further discuss this later (although my feeling is that he/she will be greatful for your contributions). maveric149

I'm not happy with the idea that Dante invented love poetry (as the text suggests): Sappho and Catullus come immediately to mind, as well as the troubadours.

Also, this text seems out of balance, being more on fine points of Florentine history, which probably should be moved to the page on Florence, than on Dante's works.

Nonetheless, in the meantime I've done a bit of copyediting, and translated a few things into common English terms instead of Italian. --Vicki Rosenzweig

EB gives Dante's birthday in the range May 15 - June 15, instead of the range in the Wikipedia. Does anyone know if this results from differences in calculations of the astrological signs in different years? Can anyone confirm when Gemini was in 1265? --Dante Alighieri 20:21 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The current link to Vita Nuova is not to an article about Dante's poem. Andres 23:04, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * This was fixed in the article by amending the link to La Vita Nuova instead of Vita Nuova. Vita Nuova also carries a link to La Vita Nuova. JKnight

I was also a bit discontent about the sweeping generalizations in the article ("all" Florentines being involved in politics, or sources saying that he had been to Paris). Although I corrected the ones I knew about, some may still remain. Also, the details concerning his life are--in my opinion--lacking. I added some (the diplomatic mission to Venice, for example), but others need to be added. (Boniface VIII being the pope that caused his exile, his ties to the old nobility, etc.). Moreover, the information about his works (even though they are in other articles) is lacking in my opinion. Although dwarfed by the Comedy, the vast importance of La Vita Nuova, De vulgari eloquentia, and Convivio are lost in this article. Information about his other poems and the Dante apocrypha (Il Fiore, for example) could also be useful.

Article move to Dante?
Alighieri is not a list name. Shouldn't this article be at simply Dante? john k 05:11, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * There have been other notable people known as Dante, an example being Dante Gabriel Rossetti. Surely, therefore, Dante should be a disambigation page, if anything? JKnight


 * Nonsense. If you say Dante you mean, well, Dante, however many other people there may be who have the name "Dante" in some part of their name.  john k 06:47, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * That is, perhaps, too much of a generalization. The reason I mentioned Dante Gabriel Rossetti was because I often hear of him being referred to as simply Dante, too. So whilst Dante might always be taken as Dante Alighieri in relation to literature, it is not the same for art in my experience. Perhaps an alternate uses link, as seen on Homer might be a compromise? (As pointed out by HamYoyo). JKnight


 * I agree. Homer isn't a disambiguation page, but it leads to one, obviously for Homer Simpson. But it doesn't matter, as there's a redirection from Dante to Dante Alighieri.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo (Talk)]] 10:43, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)


 * (Late comment) Note that Homer is a poor example, because Homer doesn't have a last name to put him on; the only other option would be something awkward like "Homer (poet)", which is obviously unnecessary due to his fame. A better comparison is that Napoleon redirects to Napoleon I of France, which links to Napoleon (disambiguation) at its top. In the same way, this page should be kept at Dante Alighieri for clarity, Dante should redirect here because he's by far the most well-known Dante and is commonly known by that name alone, and Dante (disambiguation) should be linked to at the top because there are many other noteworthy Dantes too, even though none of them are noteworthy enough to force us to have Dante be the disambiguation page (and noteworthiness is the standard we must pay close attention to here, not "how often they are referred to as 'Dante' rather than their full name"). -Silence 21:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think i can summarize this talk section: until you've internalized the meaning of WP:Primary topic, ya just won't grasp the core of this discussion. Go study that fundamental guideline topic, then come back and decide whether the following does capture that core:
 * "Homer" or "Dante" or "Napolean", when used without qualification, refer to the respective poets and the political general; people who doubt that in one case or another lack perspective bcz of having incomplete educations. If that don't bother them none, it's none of our business. If it does bother them, Hooray!, bcz using WP is, (tho not the ultimate means of addressing it) a free and potentially valuable tool for doing something about it. I don't suggest that WP can replace formal education for many people, but it's a priceless tool to accompany f.e., and a great thing for any self-starter who can't find a practical path to the f.e. they crave. --Jerzy•t 10:33, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

(Mis)attributed quotation
Probably the most attributed quotation to Dante is the one from a JFK speech: "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality", or some variation on that. However, that quotation is not in any English translation of the Divine Comedy that I've read, or else I just missed it. I have not, however, read his other writings. Can anyone source the quotation?

The reason I'm so skeptical is that Dante's arrangement of Hell does not follow any simple-minded gradation of punishment: there is no "hottest" place in hell, and the worst punishment, the ninth circle, is in fact a cold place where the lost souls are buried in the ice.

If the quotation is bogus, its misattribution would itself be a worthwhile addition to the article. Ellsworth 21:55, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, I found it. It appears that Kennedy simply misunderstood the text, or more likely, had never actually read the Inferno himself. Here's a good page on the misattribution http://www.bartleby.com/73/1211.html.

It's also inaccurate. Those who maintain their neutrality are in the vestibule of hell, not the hottest place.Carlo 20:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Have added this to Dante Alighieri Ellsworth 21:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There was something that said like "early sexcapades and family showdowns" as the title of the section. why would this be?
 * Actually, I think the real source for the principle, though not as an actual first-hand quote, is Solon of Athens. He is said to have instituted a law that if there was a civil war in Athens, those free men who had arms (practically every free man had or could get personal weapons) but who refused to take sides and fight or hand their weapons to the side they liked, should (once the fighting was over) be deprived of their status as full citizens. Quoted in The History of the Constitution of the Athenians, written by a pupil of Aristotle, and by e.g. Moses I. Finley. The Aristotelian work, incidentally, was unknown until the late 19th century when retrived in a papyrus find. Strausszek (talk) 09:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What is wrong with Friulian?
I notice that someone's repeated attempts to put external links to Dante translations in Friulian are always quickly deleted.

I have no bias for or against Friulian (I didn't even know what it is until I looked it up today), but I'm not sure why the deletions keep happening. It seems innocuous enough -- being a branch of an Italianate language, so it sounds arguably related to Dante, especially in as minor a place as an external link. Since the article already includes such trivia as video game characters with the name Dante, then why the objection to a serious translation into an Italian dialect?

Is there some reason to remove it, or is there some Wiki policy that frowns on this sort of link? Mlouns 20:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see any external links to a Friulian version of any of Dante's works, (which might be useful if they exist). All I've seen is this: Friulian translation of the Commmedia., and this Dante in the Friulian language add to the "External links" section, neither of which is an external link, they simply mention a supposed translation(s) and a link to our article on the language which makes no mention of Dante. Paul August &#9742; 21:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There was a mention of Dante in that article, which I removed: it was a bunch of external links to a commercial bookseller with some Italian description.


 * Also, why put it here instead of in Divine Comedy, in a nice paragraph, or as part of a list of translations? Qwertyus 22:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks -- those explanations make sense. Mlouns 22:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Quaestio de Aqua et Terra
The list of events for January 20 includes the cryptic line:


 * 1320 - Dante - Quaestio de Aqua et Terra.

There's no mention of this work in the article but a Google search indicates that it was "a scholastic treatise on physics".

Could someone who knows more about this add it to the article as it seems like it would add an extra dimension to the man we think of now as purely a poet. --Spondoolicks 15:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The authenticity of Quaestio de aqua et de terra is controversial. One may get a glimpse of the relevant debate here. L&#39;omo del batocio (talk) 11:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * According to manuscripts he's supposed to have given the lecture on that day in a church - in Ravenna, I think. The authenticity of the piece, as noted above, is disputed. Strausszek (talk) 00:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

COMEDY
Wasn't the work called 'commedia' just because it had a sad, dark beginning but a happy ending just and not because it was written in Italian?
 * Someone please correct me if I am wrong. The Divine Comedy was called a comedy in English because in Italian it was La Commedia. Although ancient definitions seem close to the current ones, in the middle ages it was usual for any story to be called a comedy if it had a happy ending, in contrast to, say, the Aeneid, which Virgil calls his "lofty tragedy" in the Divine Comedy. According to dictionary.com, the "earliest Eng. sense is 'narrative poem' (cf. Dante's 'Commedia')." I hope this was helpful. -- 15lsoucy salve.opus.nomen 01:44, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

External link
Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry


 * probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * See if anyone removes it. But the quote that graces the front page, and is also in the list of quotations, is apocryphal.  Those who maintain their neutrality are in the vestibule of hell, not the "hottest places."  And the deepest places in hell are ice, not fire, anyway. Carlo 12:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This user has added similar requests to link to biographies hosted on the same site to about 50 different articles. Although I believe that these requests were made in good faith, adding the links to all of the articles would be spamming. In addition, the biographies tend to be not very insightful and/or minimally informative, and the webpages contain Google AdSense links.
 * A fuller explanation of my own opinion on these links can be found here, if anyone wishes to read it.
 * Hbackman 00:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Stop_hand.png|left|30px]] please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article.  a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt.  thanks.  --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

First name basis?
Why is it that he is referred to as "Dante" and not as "Alighieri"? &mdash;Vivacissamamente 10:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Add me to the list of people wondering this. I've yet to get a satisfactory answer for this question. Zaklog 19:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

why do we usually refer to famous persons by their surname rather than their first name? tradition. --Ajcee7 11:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but how did the tradition evolve differently for this particular person? How did the "tradition" arise to treat him differently than just about anyone else? Zaklog 19:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It might have something to do with the fact that in his time and place, surnames were uncommon - in fact Dante's had been recently added, having come from his father, Alighiero. So perhaps it was standard THEN to refer to people by the first name, which was usually the ONLY name.

Okay, this answer actually makes some kind of sense. Thank you, whoever you are. Now that you mention it, this reminds me of a silly mistake in The Da Vinci Code. The appelation "Da Vinci" is a modern designation. No one in Leonardo's own time would have called him that. Zaklog 19:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The comments here about the prevalence of surnames is correct.

In the Middle Ages and early Renaissance Europe, ordinary people were usually known by their Baptismal name, and only used an additional name if it was necessary.


 * If their Christian name was relatively uncommon, like Michelangelo, then no-one ever used their surname and to an art Historian, using the name Michelangelo Buonarotti sounds like a bit of a wank by someone pretending to be knowledgeable. Caravaggio's name was also Michelangelo, so he is known almost exclusively by the name of his place of origin.

In the case of Leonardo, he lived on a hillside near a tiny hamlet, where he had no need of two names. When he moved to the small town of Vinci, at age 5, he would have been Leonardo di ser Piero (Leonardo the son of Messer Piero). It wasn't until he moved to a city that he needed to be distinguished as Leonardo from Vinci. "Da Vinci" was not his name, and it was ignorant of Dan Brown to use it as such. Michelangelo, on the other hand, was nobility, and had a string of half a dozen names to chose from, but didn't really need them, bbecause he so distinguished the one name. It is interesting that van Gogh chose to just sign himself "Vincent' in the manner of the Renaissance painters. Another case here is Piero. Piero is a dead ordiary name, and it would take an awful lot to make it stick out in the memory. So the owner of it had to chose where to call himself Piero d'Arezzo, Piero dei Monterchi or what? His name reflected his status. Piero della Francesca. Piero, the bastard child of Francesca... and that was the name he made famous.


 * In England, in the late Middle Ages, people often assumed names associated with their professions- Smith, Fletcher, Fuller, Tailor, Weaver, Dyer, Wood, Lock, Wright, Baker, Cowan. This also happened in Italy- a famous name being Tintoretto.


 * In the case of Dante, the article should be name "Dante". It's enough. --Amandajm 09:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no other Dante around who has anything near the fame of this one. I agree the page could well be named Dante. Strausszek (talk) 22:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This discussion is quite old. For me, the key is that if you enter just "Dante" in the search window, you end up here.  That's enough for me.  It works for, ahem, Elvis.  --John (User:Jwy/talk) 23:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

History of Translations
This being the English wikipedia, I should think there'd be room for an article on the history of translations of Dante's work, especially of course the Commedia,into English, with some references to the often intense scholarly arguments such translations have created. Is there such an article yet? --Christofurio 14:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The last name
Alighieri, is actually spelled Allighieri. You can see it in one of his statues. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Dante_Alighieri01.jpg
 * Being italian myself i can actually assure you that the correct spelling is Alighieri--87.10.171.1 16:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Influences on Dante, and His Philosophy
Not much is said about Dante's thought in this article as it currently stands. It is commonly thought that the Comedy renounces the 'Averroism' of Monarchy and thus returns to the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church. This has been disputed by several scholars: Gilson, Dante the Philosopher, and Fortin, Dissent and Philosophy in the Middle Ages: Dante and His Precursors, and also in a recent book by Gregory B. Stone, Dante's Pluralism and the Islamic Philosophy of Religion. Obviously, in any expansion the more accepted traditional reading should be given pride of place but I would hope that it would be agreed that minority viewpoints should be mentioned too. There is also an online article - http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/tud.htm - by Paul A. Cantor that can serve as a brief introduction to this line of thought. Pomonomo2003 17:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Dante or Aligheri?
Why is he referred to as Dante instead of Aligheri? general use shows that the last name should be used, correct? Billvoltage 16:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Dante is Dante.-FM (talk) 08:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Exile?
"Boniface quickly sent away the other representatives and asked Dante alone to remain in Rome. At the same time (November 1, 1301) Charles de Valois was entering Florence with Black Guelfs, who in the next six days destroyed everything and killed most of their enemies. A new government was installed of Black Guelfs, and Messer Cante dei Gabrielli di Gubbio was appointed Podestà of Florence. Dante was condemned to exile for two years, and to pay a large sum of money. The poet was still in Rome, where the Pope had "suggested" he stay, and was therefore considered an absconder. He could not pay his fine and was finally condemned to perpetual exile. If he were ever caught by Florentine soldiers, he would have been summarily executed."

I found a mistake in this passage: it says here that Dante could not pay his fine, but I think that it might be wrong to say that he 'could not'. Dante Alighieri could have payed his fine if he wanted to; the reason he didn't is because he couldn't see how he had wronged anyone. Dante thought himself to be innocent in this matter. I think that 'he could not' should be changed to 'he refused to'.

Also, I think there should be some mention of how they took control of most of Dante's assets after condemning him to perpetual exile. Maybe it is obvious to some that when one is condemned to perpetual exile that one's assets would be taken control of, as there is no use for most personal possessions while in perpetual exile, but I still find it an important fact that needs to be placed in the passage above.

I hope that my suggestions were helpful in fixing this article, and I second the motion to create a related article for translations of La Divina Commedia. I have a translation of the Comedy by Leon Stephens, who I noticed isn't mentioned anywhere in wikipedia. Leon Stephens has also done many other important translations, and I feel that there should be mention of him somewhere in the article titled 'Translation', if not in this article.

ovisbalat 15:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops.
I forgot to make a headline for my topic. Sorry. ovisbalat 15:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Need decision: is it "Guelph" or "Guelf"
The article has both. Either seems fine, but consistency is important. I propose "Guelph" since that's what's used in the linked article. Evan Donovan 20:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree. Paul August &#9742; 16:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree also.--Cassmus 08:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

But isn't Guelf closer than Guelph to the latin version, thus making it more accurate? 85.18.136.64 14:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Guelph would probably sound more similar to Guelfo, as Phillip is more similar to Filippo --87.10.171.1 16:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Dorothy Sayers, in her translation and commentaries, which have been very influential for decades now, consistently used "Guelf." --Christofurio 17:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I like "Guelph." Although that "ph" looks really Greek instead of Latinate. And, if that's the name of the main Guelphian ("Guelphian"?) article, that seems right. Carlo 21:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

News regarding his appearance
After 700 years, Dante gets nose job  Svetovid 11:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)