Talk:Dante Lavelli/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Secret (talk · contribs) 05:02, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this article, along with a couple of others within a day or two. Secret account 05:02, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks much. I'm here and ready to respond to any and all concerns. I'll also take a quick once-over now and do minor cleanup if necessary. --Batard0 (talk) 12:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the delay in responding to these issues -- I forgot to put the GA page on my watchlist. --Batard0 (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Here's a few comments.

Note: I do know that content from that era, even in a high profile player like Lavelli is lacking, as it wasn't until the late 50s/early 60s that professional football start rivaling baseball as America's top sport, and even now there isn't much interest in scholarly sources and quality, well-researched books about the history of professional football. Most books on the sport are either on mythical legends like Thorpe, Lombardi, and so forth, college football, or autobiographies of players who played very recently. So I understand if sources doesn't go to further detail.

--Batard0 (talk) 18:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The sentence mentioning Lavelli as an star running back in high school should go after the information about him as a child, as he wasn't a "child" by the time he went to high school. Also is it necessary to mention that his father wanted his son to follow his footsteps? Doesn't most fathers want their son to either follow or not follow their footsteps. Sentence seems a bit out of place.
 * Thanks for the suggestion. I've reversed the order in which this information appears. --Batard0 (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Anything Prokop said to convince Lavelli to leave Notre Dame to Ohio State? It says Prokop was a fifth-sting backup, but looking at Wikipedia article on Prokop it seems like he also transferred out of Notre Dame.
 * The source doesn't say that Prokop said anything in particular that convinced Lavelli not to go to Notre Dame. It says he had a chance encounter with Prokop, whose status as a fifth-string backup convinced him not to go there. The link to the source is here. I tried to tweak it and put in a quote in an attempt to make it clearer. --Batard0 (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Any notable baseball achievements in high school that made the Tigers recruit him?
 * The sources I have don't mention any achievements, outside of saying his hands made hims a capable infielder in high school, which aroused the interest of the Tigers. I put some of that context into the article, but unfortunately can't find any evidence of his high school baseball team's record or what exactly he did to warrant the Tigers' interest. --Batard0 (talk) 17:26, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Did Brown ever recruited Lavelli to join him once he took over at Ohio State, or it's just because of Brown reputation that made Lavelli joined?
 * This is unclear. The source says that "Ohio State was his next stop, after reneging on his decision to attend Notre Dame when Paul Brown went from Massillon to Columbus to coach the Buckeyes." This leaves it uncertain whether Brown actively recruited him. The way it reads, however, it sounds like Lavelli chose Ohio State because Brown moved there. I've left the text as-is, but would be grateful for any suggestions on how to make this clearer. --Batard0 (talk) 17:30, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant if Brown was ever in communication with Lavelli prior to him joining Ohio State, but what it says in the source counts, it's not a big deal. Secret account 03:20, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What kind of combat did Lavelli see during the war, instead of mentioning which battles he was a part of, but doesn't tell as what. Did he see any real action? He could have been part of the unit but in a non-combat role that was usually given to well-known athletes in World War II. Any awards?
 * I have two sources on his military service. Neither mentions exactly what he did or whether he saw real action -- whether he shot anybody or was shot at, for example. They just say he was in these battles. There's no mention in the sources of any awards. This source has a list of Browns players and their military service and lists battle stars and other military awards where players received them. Lavelli is not listed as having won any awards, which makes me think he probably didn't. --Batard0 (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Can't find any evidence other than the given source that he was ever drafted by the Rebels? As far as I can tell there wasn't even a draft for basketball that season . Maybe he was recruited? Add an extra citation to confirm the fact. Remove if that's the only source you found. If you had to remove the statement, do an extra fact-checking confirming that the rest of the information used in the Keim source is correct. A source stating that Lavelli was drafted for a draft that never existed is rather obvious sloppy fact-checking while they were writing the book and makes the source a bit dubious according to Wikipedia standards.
 * Thanks for pointing this out. I can't find any other evidence that it is true. And in fact the source says he was actually "drafted by the Cleveland Pipers of the National Basketball Association". The Pipers didn't even exist until the 1960s, which makes me suspect it's flat-out wrong. I'm removing it from the article. That he was recruited by the Tigers is supported by other sources, as are many of the other things discussed in Keim. That said, I'd be happy to double-source everything where Keim is the only source and remove anything that can only be sourced to Keim if you think it's a concern. I agree that it's a pretty bad error. Keim is a sports journalist in Washington (i.e. not just some guy who thought he'd write a book), which makes it all the more odd that it's so sloppy here. --Batard0 (talk) 17:53, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Competition was fierce for a spot on the roster, but Lavelli was one of the men who made it." Can any more information be given on this. A sentence or two explaining the competition Lavelli was facing.
 * I added a sentence and a quote about the competition at end in training camp. Hope this addresses it. --Batard0 (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The victory "started the Browns on their way," On the way what?
 * I assume this means on their way to more success, but there's no adequate context around it in the source. I've removed it because it's obviously a bit confusing. --Batard0 (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "He finished a degree in 1949." In?
 * The only source I have on this says: "Lavelli finished his work on his degree at Ohio State in the off seasons from football. He got that degree in 1949." It doesn't say what in, unfortunately. I've tried to tweak it so it's less jarring, but I'm not aware of any sources that actually have what kind of degree he got. --Batard0 (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Very little information is given about Lavelli from 1951-1953 other than making the Pro Bowl in two of those years which is a major accomplishment itself. Any other accomplishments, or impressive stats in those years we should know about?
 * I added some stats from 1951 and 1953, when he was seventh and fifth in the league, respectively, in receiving yards. He doesn't seem to have been in the top 10 in any statistical category during the 1952 season, but made the Pro Bowl anyway. --Batard0 (talk) 18:15, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Any further honors, quotes from notable figures upon his death, further legacy?
 * I found (and added) a scholarship fund set up after his death, with a quote from Hall of Fame member Willie Davis. I also put in a quote at the end from Graham. Interestingly, I haven't been able to find much information on his legacy or impact on the game, if he had one. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but the five or six books I have in which he's discussed don't mention anything significant.
 * Here's a good source explaining some of his impact which includes how he tried to get the NFL to recognize statistics from the old AAFC.
 * Thanks for the suggestion -- I added it in. And thanks for the detailed review. --Batard0 (talk) 06:21, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No close paraphrasing concerns from the sources I've seen, image is free.

Most of this is relatively minor comments, except for the Keim source which needs a fact checking. Other than that, it's a impressive article that doesn't have a heavy use in statistics like most athlete pages does. Thanks Secret account 04:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok passed. Secret account 03:20, 14 September 2012 (UTC)